Avg Wait Times To See

[eulesseagle]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/02/nhs202.xml

who would want to get us into this kind of system???? hummmmmmm???H

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...icle3115998.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...icle3111430.ece

http://news.independent.co.uk/health/article3266570.ece

Edited January 2, 2008 by eulesseagle

[Buford_Julep]

This system would sound great to any of the 47 million Americans without health insurance.

As a matter of fact, an 18 week wait doesn't sound bad even to those of us that are fortunate enough to afford health insurance. After a surgeon approved surgery for my wife, our insurance company required tests, medical consultations and just plain stalling before approval a full eight months after the diagnosis.

A friend of my wife, without health insurance, visited her doctor after noticing an irregular heartbeat and shortness of breath. The doctor told her to go to a hospital emergency room. At the hospital, my wife's friend took several tests and was told my a nurse that she had a very serious heart condition but was not in immediate danger. The nurse said that since she had no health insurance....the doctor could not see her because if he did he would be obligated to give free treatment. The woman, an American citizen, was told to come to the emergency room if she had incapacitating chest pains or if she passed out.

Affordable health care is the number one problem in the USA today. I have no idea what the solution is, but something must be done.

[eulesseagle]

BJ-

Under this plan you would be willing to wait 5-6 months to see a doctor about, let us say, an apparent heart problem so the doctor could schedule you to see a specialist in another 5-6 months??? dude and i really mean dude.....you could,as fred samford would say, "Elizabeth, I'm comin' to see ya."

that is why there are "free" hospitals all throughout the USA where you can get, pretty close to, immediate care if you don't mind waiting next to a bunch of people who can not speak english and look like they have come from a dog fight in del rio.

Parkland Hospital in Dallas.............free

John Peter Smith in Fort Worth.......free

Back in the 1990's, in Houston there were 12 free hospitals and another 40 some odd free clinics.

BJ, since you are a "vet," you can go to any Veteran's Hospitals and get free care.

Personally I like competition in the workplace with doctors but I don't like having doctors be force to take extravegant policies to cover themselves from the plethora of trial lawyers, such as John Edwards, who sue for anything....real or fabricated.

In England, for example, doctors who treat more patients than allowed by the government quota system can go to jail.....hum......that is what Hillary Care wanted back in Bill's first term.

BTW, in England there are more people who die waiting for their doctor, after their scheduled appointment, than those who have not scheduled an appointment.

The United States hospitals are full of people from other countries such as CANADA & ENGLAND and other socialized medicine countries because they can not get "immediate" health care and dont want to wait 4-12 months for medical care.

John Edwards wants you to go jail if you refuse to take a health care plan.

People who work have the choice to take health care or not and that is their choice.......not the governments.

Employers have the right to offer health insurance or not......that is their choice and your choice to work for them or not......not the governments.

All these crying women who are paraded on Opra and all these other shows who say someone close to them died because they did not have health insurance should have gone to one of the many "FREE" hospitals in the United States of America and gotten the problem treated.

The government is NOT the solution to all our, so called, ills......the government is the "problem."

in respect to pmg i will stop here.

[Buford_Julep]

Nothing is free. Dallas county taxpayers and Medi-caid pay for Parkland's indigent care.

Illegal immigrants receive free care without showing a social security card, but American citizens must reside in Dallas County, have less than $40,000 income per family of four, have no health insurance coverage and can't purchase health coverage at work. After qualifying, an American citizen should be prepared to go through a mountain of red tape. If an American citizen lies about income or residency, that person is guilty of cheating Dallas County taxpayers and will be prosecuted.

[eulesseagle]

BJ-

I think we all pretty much know that "free" hospitals are funded at the county level through taxes and have income limitations for the household but the point is that the hospitals provide "free" coverage for those who either indigent, illegal alien, no company provided insurance program (probably some some mom & pops company or sweatshop) or someone who wants to opt out of the company plan.

Do you really want to wait 4-12 months for medical care under the English system that the Democrat's want?? Hillary Care is what I think they call it.

IMHO, the "Open Market System" of free choice should dictate to any business not the government forcing me to accept Hillary Care.

If some slothy person who is ill is too lazy to drive themself, or have someone drive them, to a free hospital/clinic to get treated for whatever they have then I "do not feel sorry for them." It is their choice to either get motivated to go to the hospital or lie on the Opra show about how they can not get coverage when they can get whatever "free" treatment they need at county hospitals.

There are hospitals in California that are shutting their doors because treating illegal mexicans are bankrupting the system.....

[UNTflyer]

Free Market services are always best because companies have to compete for your business. Under a government program, there is no incentive to provide quality care.

Name one government service that is superior to its equilavent privatized service.

***CRICKETS***

No thanks... I don't want health care to be like going to the DMV.

Edited January 2, 2008 by UNTflyer

[CMJ]

I don't have health care - can't afford it. To be able to goto a free clinic one must obtain a Medi-Cal card which shows that you make something like under $860 a month(supposedly, though I know some people who have gone and haven't had to show anything). So folks like me are screwed - not POOR but the so called "working poor".

Thankfully USC and UCLA both provide cheaper care since they are teaching centers. Hell...I'm going to UCLA's dentistry for my next checkup.

[SUMG]

Everyone worries so much about the so called 40+ million who are not insured. Have you ever seen the breakdown of those? A lot of them are illegals. Another significant part of that group, are young people who could have insurance, but choose not to spend money on it.

Anyway.....here's your future with socialized medicine: Old people will be denied care, and allowed to die. If you're over a certain age, you just don't get that surgery or whatever you need....once care is RATIONED, as it is when the government is in control. In parts of England, you're denied dialysis, if you're over the ripe old age of.....55.

Do you know that Cleveland has more MRI machines, than in all of Canada?

Yeah, government run medicine....that's the answer.

I'm getting sick just thinking about it.

[UNTflyer]

Yeah that 40 million number gets thrown around without really giving it any critical analysis.

Rule of thumb: if your "right" imposes an obligation on me, then it's not a right.

Health insurance is not a right, it is a responsibility.

[GreenBat]

Yeah that 40 million number gets thrown around without really giving it any critical analysis.

Rule of thumb: if your "right" imposes an obligation on me, then it's not a right.

Health insurance is not a right, it is a responsibility.

So who is reponsible for those that don't have health insurance? Not those that can't afford health insurance, but those who don't qualify for health insurance?

[UNTflyer]

So who is reponsible for those that don't have health insurance?

You are responsible for your own health insurance, just like you are responsible for your own food, shelter, clothing, and all other necessities in life.

Not those that can't afford health insurance, but those who don't qualify for health insurance?

Please clarify what you mean by "qualify" for health insurance.

[Cr1028]

Wouldn't National Health Care be a disincentive to doctors? They would no longer have the desire to excel. Why should I strive to be the best heart surgeon in the nation when all the nation's heart surgeons are paid the same rates? Also, why would doctors who currently work for themselves want to now have an employer to answer to? These are just some thoughts that came into my head. They may be wrong as I don't have a great understanding of NHC, just some outside theories of my own.

[UNTflyer]

Wouldn't National Health Care be a disincentive to doctors? They would no longer have the desire to excel. Why should I strive to be the best heart surgeon in the nation when all the nation's heart surgeons are paid the same rates? Also, why would doctors who currently work for themselves want to now have an employer to answer to? These are just some thoughts that came into my head. They may be wrong as I don't have a great understanding of NHC, just some outside theories of my own.

CR1028, you should not think of such things. It's selfish to want to work in health care for the money.

All we should be thinking about are all those 40 million people who are without health care insurance!!!

[GreenBat]

Please clarify what you mean by "qualify" for health insurance.

Have a pre-existing condition or are not old enough to have health insurance.

[CMJ]

All we should be thinking about are all those 40 million people who are without health care insurance!!!

Well thanks for not wanting to help your fellow man...namely me.

I'm not necessarily in favor of having a nationalized health care system, because it can get out of control quickly. On the other hand, I do find it sad that even millions of folks that DO have health care can't get treated because the policies refuse such and such treatment/operation/what have you. The current system is nearly as broken down as a national one would be.

[UNTflyer]

Have a pre-existing condition or are not old enough to have health insurance.

Pre-existing as in "oh dear, I have cancer I better go get insurance". Those people are out of luck.

Pre-existing as in "I'm an amputee and need prosthetic work for life" is usually covered.

Those who aren't old enough to have insurance probably need to look to their parents for help.

[UNTflyer]

I have as much sympathy for people without health insurance as I do for people who don't have auto or life insurance. It's just one of those things that you get to protect yourself against the misfortunes of life. If you choose not to sacrifice in order to get basic health insurance, well that's a choice you make.

I have no obligation to provide health insurance for the working poor any more than I do to provide them with renter's insurance for their apartment.

Just doing a quick Internet search, I got 15 quotes for health insurance, one of them was about $83 a month. If you can't cough up $83 a month on your own, then maybe America isn't the place for you to live.

[SUMG]

Another great moment from Canada's socialized medicine:

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - A Surrey woman's holiday in California has turned into a healthcare nightmare. The 68-year old needed emergency surgery after her appendix burst, but now she can't come home due to a lack of hospital beds.

Arlene Meeks has been in a California hospital since December 17th. Her family has been trying to get her transferred back to the Lower Mainland for 2 weeks now but they haven't had any luck.

Stephen Harris with the South Fraser Health Region says the issue is a shortage of ventilated intensive care unit beds, which are highly specialized. He says over the holidays, it's not surprising to see those beds filled up.

Harris says as soon as a bed becomes available, Meeks will be transferred to a local hospital. Arlene's daughter Kim says her mom is 'frustrated as hell', and she just wants to come home.

NDP Health Critic Adrian Dix says the issue is one that's continued to plague the Lower Mainland and he's blaming Liberal government cuts to acute care beds. "The number of acute care beds in British Columbia was reduced by 1,300 in the first mandate of the government, and some of the new facilities being opened won't be adding to that number."

Dix says the Vancouver Coastal and Fraser Health authorities issued reports last fall indicating they are 650 acute care beds short right now.

[CMJ]

Yes, and I'm sure i could just as easily find horror stories of people who have paid their insurance for years, but were denied treatment because their insurer guves a lame ass reason and keeps the money(I recall a story about such a story on ABC News a few weeks back).

Fact is neither a totally socialized system or one like we have here in the States works for everyone. Universal healthcare has the issues of overcrowding and lack of incentive to doctors to get better at their craft, while our more free market system runs into issues with folks who can't really pay or insurance companies who don't want to pay out claims so folks get refused treatment at the hospital.

[UNTflyer]

Yes, and I'm sure i could just as easily find horror stories of people who have paid their insurance for years, but were denied treatment because their insurer guves a lame ass reason and keeps the money(I recall a story about such a story on ABC News a few weeks back).

Fact is neither a totally socialized system or one like we have here in the States works for everyone. Universal healthcare has the issues of overcrowding and lack of incentive to doctors to get better at their craft, while our more free market system runs into issues with folks who can't really pay or insurance companies who don't want to pay out claims so folks get refused treatment at the hospital.

Here's the difference. In our free market system, you can sue your insurance company if they wrongly deny payment of treatment. It is rare that insurance companies don't pay when they are supposed to, because in a free market system a business that fails to meet it's customer's expectations will be out of business quick. When it does occur, the insurance companies usually have a legitimate reason. If they are wrong, they end up having to settle or pay a lot of money in punitive damages. The point... the insurance company is accountable to their customers, their shareholders, and the tort system.

I'll agree to an NHS in America if all these rich politicians live under the same plan. You know, those same politicians who are exempt from Social Security and Medicare deductions.

[Cr1028]

I didn't realize it was so bad. All I've ever heard is the "American Dream" and how everyone wants to come here for a better life. I've never heard of someone wanting to leave the U.S. to go to one of the NHS countries for a better life.

[CMJ]

No one wants to MOVE there...but I do work with a woman that goes to Mexico for her prescription drugs(a whole tangent argument) because the same medicines are so much cheaper there.

Edited January 3, 2008 by CMJ

[UNTflyer]

After 60 years of British NHS, here is the opening paragraph of an article in today's UK Sun:

"A new NHS constitution will guarantee everyone’s right to basic treatment, clean hospitals and minimum waiting times."

That says it all.

[eulesseagle]

CMJ-

The reason why meds are more expensive in the United States is that OUR pharmacutical companies do the vast majority of research & development of new drugs. Other countries just copy what we develop.

[UNTflyer]

I do work with a woman that goes to Mexico for her prescription drugs(a whole tangent argument) because the same medicines are so much cheaper there.

1. They are not the same medicine. They are usually lower quality generics or outright snake oil. One estimate is that 20% of Mexican pharmaceuticals are counterfit.

2. If you are getting a name brand medicine in Mexico, it's usually because a generic version is not yet available in the U.S. But that's like going to Mexico to get a deal on a used car. I don't buy it and I don't think it happens as often as the media likes to portray it.

3. Like every other product on the market, medicine is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for them. If a $70 prescription knocks out that ear infection and gets you back to work in 2 days, that is worth more than missing two weeks of work. So what's the gripe? Is the medicine really not worth $70, or is it because Americans have been so brainwashed about this healthcare "crisis" that they think medicine should be free?

4. Wal-Mart recently started offering $4 generic prescriptions. That's how the free market works. Socialized medicine would never be able to achieve such economies of scale.

Edited January 3, 2008 by UNTflyer