Don't Mess With Texas

[KingDL1]

What bothers me is not the legal debate, but the fact that Mr. Horn chose to leave his home to engage in a gun fight in the middle of a residential area. In doing so, there was a serious risk of a stray round going through someone's window and hitting an innocent bystander. He's very, very lucky that the robbers did not have guns - for his own well being and for the safety of his neighbors. Think of how many stories we've heard of gang gun fights claiming a child caught in the crossfire.

If criminals invade your home, I absolutely support using deadly force against them. But Mr. Horn endangered his neighbors by taking the fight outside. I have no doubt a lot of his neighbors - maybe even all of them - support him, but I doubt they would be so supportive if an innocent had been shot in a needless gun battle.

Just a different note:

I have no idea what shot Mr. Horn had in his shotgun, but anything other then buckshot would not carry very far. At close range I would prefer duck shot. As far as if the crooks had guns he still would have had the drop on them, there hands were full of loot. But that was the risk that Mr Horn took, I would not recommend it. Gang drive byes are wild and random I don't think they aim.

[Cr1028]

The full 911 call

Just listen to the demeanor of the dispatcher. He is calm telling Horn stay inside, when Horn shoots someone he gets pissed. Alos, listen in real time, the amount of time between him walking out the door, saying "move, you're dead", and firing two shots. Also, pay very close attention to the time lapse between the first two shots and the last. One of two things must've happened: A) a 60-some year old overweight white man chased down a thin 30-40something black man. or he was trying to make sure someone was dead.

[KingDL1]

And are you willing to pay all the legal fees and time required to defend your actions in such a questionable situation? And yes, it is questionable otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

As for me, I would have observed and reported but I would not have gone outside to confront them. If my property or my life isn't involved, I'm not getting involved. And before you jump on me about such a "selfish" attitude, I ask if I was your neighbor would you be paying the $300/hr that my attorney would charge to defend me?

This is true and I agree with it.

Mr. Horn will likely have those who will throw in if he needs it just from the publicity alone.

I guess the biggest disagreement here is I think Mr. Horn was worked up and pi$$ed off, and I take it you think he had been waiting for the opportunity to kill someone and this was his chance. If your assumption is correct I would jump boats.

[FirefightnRick]

I did. Scumbags. Were they ever caught?

I haven't been able to find out just yet.

Rick

[runt96]

I haven't been able to find out just yet.

Rick

Rick, I just watched it and his screams gave me chills.

Pray these guys are caught or confronted by someone like Mr. Horn and not someone who can't deal with it.

Mr. Horn may have had a pre-conceived notion that someone crawling through his neighbor's window had a weapon(actually anyone would think so until after the carcasses are examined). Even though the men turned away eventually(probably a matter of milliseconds), Mr. Horn should have known they were not a threat(and they were probably gooood people).

When a situation arises like this a person has got to be prepared to react quickly and live with the consequences. If he goes to jail or not, that choice was much harder than one of us sitting behind a laptop chatting about it. He may have sounded determined on the 911 call, but if the police had arrived a minute earlier his decision may have been different(it's no fault of the police). He made his choice and some think it was hasty and some think he's heroic(i side with the latter). The police can't be expected to arrive immediately. At some point we have got to be able to protect ourselves from the unknown(whether or not the person has a gun). If someone enters your home or your neighbor's you must assume they are armed.

The burglars were not armed but if they were and the family were there and Mr Horn simply sat at the window and observed, there would much more reason to refer to him as "coward" whether he had a gun or not.

[UNTLifer]

"Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb."

Oh yeah...and does somebody want to explain the physics of this to me?

Horn pulls his shotgun up to fire, the illegal immigrant drug dealing burglar turns to run just as Horn pulls the trigger. Oops, he's dead. If these two illegal immigrant drug dealing, deported, snuck back into the country illegally burglars weren't career criminals they would have never put Mr. Horn in the position to make a decision I'm sure he now regrets, but the illegal immigrant, drug dealing, arrested, deported, snuck back into the country illegally, looking for a free ride, burglar made a stupid decision.

[runt96]

Horn pulls his shotgun up to fire, the illegal immigrant drug dealing burglar turns to run just as Horn pulls the trigger. Oops, he's dead. If these two illegal immigrant drug dealing, deported, snuck back into the country illegally burglars weren't career criminals they would have never put Mr. Horn in the position to make a decision I'm sure he now regrets, but the illegal immigrant, drug dealing, arrested, deported, snuck back into the country illegally, looking for a free ride, burglar made a stupid decision.

well spoken, lifer!!!

[Censored by Laurie]

Horn pulls his shotgun up to fire, the illegal immigrant drug dealing burglar turns to run just as Horn pulls the trigger. Oops, he's dead. If these two illegal immigrant drug dealing, deported, snuck back into the country illegally burglars weren't career criminals they would have never put Mr. Horn in the position to make a decision I'm sure he now regrets, but the illegal immigrant, drug dealing, arrested, deported, snuck back into the country illegally, looking for a free ride, burglar made a stupid decision.

MMMMM....nothing like some good old fashion Lifer xenophobia to start my day off.

What amazes me is about this entire arguement is that those who are defending Horn believe that those who are critical of him are on the side of these robbers...and thats just plain stupidity. My problem is that Horn superceded both the law and the entire justice system...and as soon as he did that and those two criminals died, Horn became a murderer...he was in no danger had he stayed in his home, as he was instructed to do by the 911 operator...instead he aggressivly went after these criminals and determined, by himself, that their crime (robbery, not armed robbery, not assult, not drug dealing, not illegal immigration...nothing but robbery b/c thats the only crime Horn knew was being commited) meritted a death sentence.

The only issue here is Mr. Horn's actions. Had these two criminals gone through the justice system, yes, then their history comes into play...but the ONLY thing Horn knew was that these men were robbing a house. Past actions didn't matter, future actions didn't matter. Horn was in no personal danger and he killed two people...thats a murderer.

[UNTLifer]

People are sick and tired on their homes being burglarized. Half the time the people that get caught walk anyway. The legal system isn't stopping these people. They're letting them run back and forth, either across the border or in and out of jail. Just look at the background of the punk that abducted the NT student this year and ended up burning her. He shouldn't have been here in the first place.

xen·o·phobe (zěn'ə-fōb', zē'nə-) Pronunciation Key

n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples

I am far from a xenophobe. I have many good friends that imigrated to this country legally and aren't criminals. I just have a problem, not a fear, of those that enter our country illegally, commit crimes, get free education, healthcare, etc..., and don't have any intention of being a legal citizen. Especially those that commit crimes, run gangs (MS13), push drugs, abduct and murder young people, etc...

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Not that the Enron folk did not need to be shot, but you need to realize these were grown men bold enough to break in to a house in the middle of the afternoon in broad daylight. That is a pretty violent act to start with, what do you think their plan was if they accidentally surprised someone in the house? Run like school girls? Fact is if they were willing in to go to a neighborhood and break in to a house in under these conditions they likely would have hurt someone to get away. You would be very naive to give the adult criminal the benefit of the doubt.

---I am not going to defend him , not sure what really happened but you right... the four punks that broke into the house of the NFL player from the Redskins was not going to kill anyone either... just "harmless" theives...... but they did.

---Comparing Martha Stewart to the Enron guys is like comparing a kid that steals a piece of gum to Al Capone. She made less than $100,000 ......they took BILLIONS and ruined people's lives, cost them their jobs and even worse cost a lot of hard-working retired people their pensions and health care. Most are way to old to work or recover a fraction of what they lost. Many are now having to depend on their children to support them........ this happened to people who never worked for Enron but worked for companies that were aquired by Enron...... who then raided all the assets. Guess who Enron furished an airplane during the 2000 elections.....

[GreenBat]

This guy sounds like a gun-toting REPUBLICAN, who is supported by good americans and those who think he should be charged with a crime are pinko-commy liberal DEMOCRACTS, who think america would be better off with no police.

[Censored by Laurie]

This guy sounds like a gun-toting REPUBLICAN, who is supported by good americans and those who think he should be charged with a crime are pinko-commy liberal DEMOCRACTS, who think america would be better off with no police.

Actually, us pinko-commy liberals are the ones advocating that the law actually be handled by the police...rather than a murderous, gun-toting republican.

Though, I must say I appreciate your half-assed attempt at stirring the pot...thanks for playing as always.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Censored by Laurie

[runt96]

yellow bellied, red diaper doper babies. He wasn't committing a crime when the incident occurred. He will have to live with the decision he made and it will affect him much more than the worthless human debris that could have hurt the homeowners(had they been at home).

[GreenBat]

Though, I must say I appreciate your half-assed attempt at stirring the pot...thanks for playing as always.

Actually I was trying to get this F'n thread shut down.

[emmitt01]

He could see them out the window, he should have just followed them with his eyes and told the 911 operator so the REAL police could handle it.

Ok then, let me weigh in. And I'll do so for those that might misinterpret what I'm saying.

GOOD FOR MR. HORN

Ok, with that out of the way allow me to explain.

1)They were in this country illegally. They had a previous criminal record. Both of these facts are irrelevant to this particular situation...when Mr. Horn shot he didn't know either of these things... But he did know this...

2)They were brazen enough to break into his neighbor's house in the middle of the daytime. What about this screams "petty criminal" to you? Anything? In my experience (and all of the bleeding hearts are welcome to put their obviously vast experience at crime scenes up against it) those that break into homes are there for property first and foremost...but they're not there to get caught. That means that if you stand between them and their escape they will use whatever means necessary to get out of the situation, even if it means killing you....which brings me to my third point...

3)They were shot AFTER they crossed Mr. Horn's property line! Do you think they were burglarizing his neighbor's house from Mr. Horn's side of the property line? No! They came at him and he shot them.

But this was not the case here. They were getting away, and that pissed off Mr Horn and he went running out of his house eager to kill and exact revenge.

Wrong! They weren't getting away, they were coming at him. You're suggesting that when they looked to get away the only escape route they could conceive of was through Mr. Horn? Those who want to bandy about the word "murder" please pick up a penal code. Murder involves an innocent person...there were none in this situation.

4)He could have stayed in his house and waited for the police. True, he could have. He didn't. He waited 8 minutes on the phone and then realized help was not imminent. Then, he went outside and followed the letter of the law...two thugs are dead, I'm not crying.

The next two are especially for Greenminer.

5)I'm very sorry you had friends growing up who were STUPID enough to break into homes for fun. And I'm glad they were lucky enough to live to tell about it. Let me make it fundamentally clear though, if you break into my house I'm going to put a big fat hole in you. I don't know, nor do I care, why you have taken it upon yourself to violate my home. My wife knows that if she hears someone coming into our home she should call 911 from the home phone so they can trace it, and call me on her cell, then tell the 911 operator "send police. My husband is an officer and pray for the sake of the burglars that another policeman gets here before he does. Otherwise don't bother with the police. Send the coroner"

6)Shoot to wound!? This aint the Annie Oakley show. Shooting to wound is a one-way ticket to either losing your badge if you're a cop or losing your freedom or life if you're not. I hope you've got a great civil attorney AND a sympathetic grand jury on hand. If you point a gun at someone you damn well better be ready to use it...and the only reason to use a gun is to neutralize a threat. Live threats are not neutralized.

7)Those who want to compare a burglar to a drunk driver please send me a pm. I'd be glad to take you on a ride along so that you can meet face to face both a DWI driver and a person with a criminal history of burglary. Those two people wouldn't be in the same room if it weren't for their both being in Lew Sterrett, that's how diametrically opposed they are. Cutesy far-fetched comparisons are great for hyperbole...please save them for times when they are relevant.

8)I carry a gun with me at all times when I'm off duty. If I'm at the grocery store and the cashier four lanes over is getting robbed please tell the mother of the robber that her son/daughter was no doubt a good person.

9)"He was looking to kill someone" Wow! Please pass whatever you are smoking that allows you to make this grand of a logic leap. If you'll listen to that snippet from the 911 call again you'll hear him say several times "this isn't right". True, he does say "I'm gonna kill them" but who doesn't when they're faced with a massive injustice? You're telling me the words "I'm gonna kill...." have never come out of your mouth when you've been upset? If they have, can I put you on some kind of watch list for having murderous intent? This was not, in any stretch of the imagination, pre-meditated murder (again, see definition of murder)

10)The burglars weren't armed. So? Did Mr. Horn know this? The next time I answer a burglary in progress call should I leave my weapon holstered until I see a gun? Will you write my wife a check for the funeral expenses?

11)"They weren't murderers. They were just burglars" They were felons. The two differences between small time felons and big time felons are opportunity and practice. Don't believe me? Find somebody who has killed someone during a home invasion robbery or a carjacking and look at their criminal history. You'll see home burglaries and car jackings where they got caught because they left witnesses...they don't make that mistake twice.

12)"He shot them in the back. He must have wanted to execute them" I am so, so, so, so, hopeful that if/when the day comes that I'm forced to shoot someone in the line of duty you won't sit on the grand jury! Things like reaction time, the natural lag time between thinking of pulling a trigger and doing so, and adrenaline factor into the act of shooting. I don't expect any of you to understand this because Monday morning quarterbacking seems to fit you so well. I can tell you, though, that if a danger presents itself...especially in the form of running at you which is to say the threat is accelerating as it approaches you...it is entirely possible to shoot that threat even as it turns to where it is not facing you anymore.

I could sit here and write a post that would make Plumm blush because of its length all about the numerous times I have seen some thug take a life or ruin one to the point of no repair. I won't because Mr. Horn's actions don't need that much justification. Those of you who weep for the two dead CRIMINALS I am ecstatic that you've never had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of victimization...still I can't help but wonder if maybe seeing it up close and personal might color your black and white views on "vigilante justice."

Edited December 14, 2007 by emmitt01

[Coffee and TV]

still I can't help but wonder if maybe seeing it up close and personal might color your black and white views on "vigilante justice."

Funny, seeing as how those advocating the killer's side are seeing it pretty black and white that "they're dead criminals", and don't seem to differentiate between them and murderers.

[emmitt01]

Funny, seeing as how those advocating the killer's side are seeing it pretty black and white that "they're dead criminals", and don't seem to differentiate between them and murderers.

Go back and re-read my point about the differences between small time felons and big time ones.

Or, if you don't want to take my word for it read this:

http://www.odmp.org/officer/17960-police-o...-howard-jackson

Tell his wife how "small time" this guy was. And don't bore me with the "this is totally different, this guy was armed" crap either. Mr. Horn didn't know if these guys were armed when they RAN AT HIM.

[Censored by Laurie]

Actually I was trying to get this F'n thread shut down.

And why would you want to do that? This thread is under its proper heading, it was clearly a politically based thread when it started and everybody seems to be having reasoned discussion on the topic...if its reached seven pages clearly this is a controversial enough topic to merit discussion

If you, personally, want no part in the discussion allow me to point out the 5 other topic headings and their hundreds of threads from which you can weigh in.

Go back and re-read my point about the differences between small time felons and big time ones.

Or, if you don't want to take my word for it read this:

http://www.odmp.org/officer/17960-police-o...-howard-jackson

Tell his wife how "small time" this guy was. And don't bore me with the "this is totally different, this guy was armed" crap either. Mr. Horn didn't know if these guys were armed when they RAN AT HIM.

So now Horn has police training and ou believe he made a reasoned decision when he left his home...something consciously in him said that these guys are hardened criminals b/c they're breaking into a home during the day when the likelihood of running into the owner of the home is at best minimal.

And yes, there are probably hundreds of cases where in hindsight someone taking the law into their own hands has been beneficial...but there are just as many where things go horribly wrong and completely innocent people end up losing their lives...its not worth the risk.

[FirefightnRick]

breaking into a home during the day when the likelihood of running into the owner of the home is at best minimal.

No, there's no statistics that back that up when people are home or not. But from the violence that is being reported more and more I'd guess that it's on the increse. Just do a "Google" search and see the countless home invasions that have happened lately. Within a one mile radius of my firestation there has been three violent home invasions in the past 21 days. All the victims were home. The statistics apparantly are not well kepted so far and it's hard to track. But below is an '06 USAToday article, one of many I have found that states law officials say it's on the increase.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-0...invasions_x.htm

By Larry Copeland and Nick Martin, USA TODAY

The slayings of seven people during a home-invasion robbery in Indianapolis last week spotlights a trend in several cities around the nation: This terrifying crime is on the rise.

It's difficult to quantify the increase because such robberies aren't a separate crime category that the FBI and most police departments track. But police chiefs and criminologists say anecdotal evidence suggests home invasions, a form of armed robbery in which criminals burst into homes and threaten their victims face to face, are increasing in some areas.

Home invasions are "extremely painful" crimes, says Jean O'Neil, director of research and evaluation at the National Crime Prevention Council, a non-profit group that promotes strategies to prevent crime. "Your sanctuary, your home is being violated at the same time you're being violated personally," she says.

Increases in such crimes are showing up in some parts of the West and Southwest, where police say illegal immigrants are sometimes both victim and perpetrator:

• In Houston, home-invasion robberies increased 25% last year to 448. Police Chief Harold Hurtt says the victims often are either drug dealers whose stashes are targeted or small-business owners known to carry home cash.

• In Sacramento, home-invasion robberies are up 37% to 63 in the first five months of this year over the same period last year. "What happens, when one person does a certain type of crime and is successful, it filters through the criminal world," says Sgt. Terrell Marshall, a police spokesman. "That's what we're seeing with this home-invasion thing. When they get incarcerated, they're actually being educated on which crimes work and which crimes don't work."

• In Hidalgo County, Texas (population about 678,000), the sheriff's office created a special unit to investigate home-invasion robberies. Sheriff Guadalupe Trevino says criminals in the Rio Grande Valley county near the Mexican border often dress like SWAT officers and stage assaults on homes "where they believe drugs or drug money is being stashed. ... Sometimes they act on flawed information, which puts an innocent citizen in the line of fire. This has happened numerous times."

Trevino says suspects in many home invasions in his county are current or former Mexican police officers who sometimes target "stash houses" of illegal immigrants. "They will kidnap 10, 15, 20 illegal immigrants and hold them for ransom until the other trafficking gang pays up," he says.

Hurtt agrees. "Especially here in the border states of California, Arizona and Texas, it might be human smuggling," says the Houston chief, president of the Major Cities Chiefs Association, which represents the nation's 55 largest police departments and five Canadian agencies. "You have home invasions where human cargo is targeted."

In last week's mass slaying in Indianapolis, the two suspects were searching for a safe they believed contained money and cocaine, according to the Associated Press, citing documents filed by prosecutors. Three children under the age of 12 and four adults were killed. A funeral for six of the victims was held Wednesday.

Marion County prosecutor Carl Brizzi says he will seek the death penalty against suspect Desmond Turner, 28, and is considering whether to seek the execution of co-defendant James Stewart, 30. Each faces multiple charges, including murder, criminal confinement, robbery and burglary.

Indianapolis had "several" home-invasion robberies last year, according to the police department's website.

Dallas, Lubbock, Texas, Tucson, Phoenix, Seattle, Minneapolis, Washington and Cleveland are among the cities where police do not track such robberies as a separate crime category.

Some police and criminologists say that approach is similar to the way police treated carjackings before they became a federal crime in 1992, and church arsons, which became a federal crime in 1996.

Officers in Lubbock don't refer to home invasions by that name, Lt. Roy Bassett says. "So far as I know, that's a classification that has come from the media," he says. "Just like carjacking — we don't call it that."

Some cities that track such crimes are recording declines. In Tampa, home-invasion robberies dropped from 104 in 2004 to 96 last year. One was reported last year in Myrtle Beach, S.C., down from four in 2004.

Some crime analysts say they think home invasions are decreasing.

"That's why when these cases come up, they are all the more attention-worthy," says Robert McCrie, professor of security management in the Department of Law and Police Science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. "Because we don't hear about it."

The brazen nature of such crimes often leaves victims permanently traumatized, some crime experts say. "If you come home and find your house burglarized, it's pretty much an insurance issue," says Chris McGoey, a security consultant who runs the crimedoctor.com website.

"But if they break into your house while you're there and take you captive, it's something you never recover from. It's a tremendous hit on the relationship of couples," McGoey says. "I've talked to many, many women who blame their husbands for not protecting them. It's a really hard-hitting crime."

Posted 6/7/2006 10:57 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions |

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--I would daytime confrontations are very likely in today's world. When I was a kid most businesses closed down at 6-7:00 PM, not true now. The grocery store where I worked (Safeway) at closed at 7:00. Today people work all types of hours and there are a lot of people in homes during the daytime. Those who criticize "absolutely" what happened just aren't thinking. If I yelled at a bunch of four "thugs" and I was armed and then they started toward me. You bet I would shoot. They can have hidden weapons, including knives and in fact since four of them they would not even need weapons to "do me in". If nothing else they could use my weapon on me. Maybe he was justified, maybe not, I wasn't there. I know one thing if you threaten to use a gun you better be willing to use it or you will be in serious trouble.

---For those you consider Democrats bleeding heart, pagan, socialists... you haven't met me. True a lot of big city Democrats are rather anti-gun, especially those in the North-East but is a function of where they live not which party they belong to. I once voted for GOP candidates a lot but once they got the part that they try to "demonize" those that dare disagree with them as socialist, gay, unpatriotic, pagan, and total liberals then I decided it was time to support people that were more open minded. As for being conservative... on what issue.. ??.. financially, religion, socially or what? Very few people are more financially conservative than me (a Democrat) [fact: Clinton administration balanced their budget 6 of his 8 years, Bush never has nor did Reagan] Both Bush and Reagan more than doubled the national debt.... is that conservative??? And for it is worth I do go to church regularly... unlike some of those who want religion taught in schools. For the most part, Religious Extremists have done this extreme separation of church and state to themselves.... I have heard devotions over the intercom (I taught in public schools 30 years). l that I thought went way too far and tried to advance the beliefs of their particular Church---- trust me, not all Christian Churches believe the same at all. That is THE problem. A local Catholic Church sells beer at a fall festival... meanwhile a few blocks away the Baptist and Church of Christ try to absolutely forbid it.

An "almost exact" quote from Thomas Jefferson: "Sometimes the most patriotic thing a person can do is disagree with what his government is doing".

I graduated during the '60s... but not by any stretch of the imagination a flower child or extreme liberal... now or then.

[UNTflyer]

fact: Clinton administration balanced their budget 6 of his 8 years

Fiction. The federal government has not had a true budget surplus since the 1960s (I believe it was 1969). President Clinton's office "projected" a surplus based on a lot of fantastic and optimistic figures, but it never happened.

If I remember correctly, he and Congress did achieve the smallest deficit in 3 decades, which is in itself a remarkable achievement.

[FirefightnRick]

It tough to cap the price of freedom and safety.

Rick

Edited December 15, 2007 by FirefightnRick

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Fiction. The federal government has not had a true budget surplus since the 1960s (I believe it was 1969). President Clinton's office "projected" a surplus based on a lot of fantastic and optimistic figures, but it never happened.

If I remember correctly, he and Congress did achieve the smallest deficit in 3 decades, which is in itself a remarkable achievement.

Really---That is Horse manure.... probably stated by Rush Limbaugh or someone....then why was the GOP Senators and Reps wanted to cut taxes, and do other things in 1998-99. Your memory is very short. They were alway talking about the surplus... Some (mostly Democrat want to reduce the national debt and some wanted to put Social Security on a firmer basis.... I suggest you go back and look and learn the true facts.

Try this site, it is a US government site... not the propoganda of any party: IT SHOULD BE ACCURATE

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports...bt/histdebt.htm

The increases of the late 1900's was interest not because unbalanced budget... This is what was being in 1999-2000 argued at the time, what to do with the surplus.... Pay the Debt down??? or tax cuts. Bush won and the debt increased greatly again.

Date ---------- Dollar Amount

09/30/2008 -----------------

09/30/2007 not available

09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23 Bush II... it will double by the time he leaves office at this rate.

09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50

09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32

09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62

09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16

09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06

09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86 28% increase of wht it was when took office ( 8 years) Clinton

09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43

09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62

09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34

09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73

09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39

09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32

09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38

09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66 42% increase of what it was went into office ( 4 years) Bush I

09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03

09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25

09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32

09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16 186 % increase of what it was when went into office ( 8 years) Reagan

09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00

09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42

09/30/1985 * 1,823,103,000,000.00

09/30/1984 * 1,572,266,000,000.00

09/30/1983 * 1,377,210,000,000.00

09/30/1982 * 1,142,034,000,000.00

09/30/1981 * 0,997,855,000,000.00

09/30/1980 * 0,907,701,000,000.00 last Carter year.

* rounded off

[UNTflyer]

Try this site, it is a US government site... not the propoganda of any party: IT SHOULD BE ACCURATE

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports...bt/histdebt.htm

The increases of the late 1900's (1990s, I assume is what you meant) was interest not because unbalanced budget...

Interest payments are part of a budget. Do you not count the interest on your debts when do your budget? Regardless of how one tries to spin it, the country's debt got bigger every year Clinton was in office, just like it did for 30 years. But like I said, the work Clinton and Congress did during that time certainly helped minimize the deficit and should be applauded.

That and the fact that Americans were creating the new Internet economy that generated record tax revenues.

[KingDL1]

That and the fact that Americans were creating the new Internet economy that generated record tax revenues.

This was key.

And flyer is correct. But maybe better for another topic.

Can we get back to shooting people?