Did Td Get To Conservative

[GreenN'walinsVet]

As I posted in another thread

I dont think TD went conservative in the second half as much as he just continued to do what he has done all year. His offensive philosophy is to take what the defense gives you, plain and simple. Tonight in the second half, they dropped 7 and 8 guys back into coverage and forced us to run the ball, which we did, and with good success. That is not going conservative, that is smart. If we would of tried throwing as much as we do into 7 and 8 defenders then this game would have got ugly with all the interceptions and incompletions.

At the end of the game TD made the right calls as well. Once we got down to the 14 yard line, there was just over two minutes left and ASU had two timeouts and we had a three point lead. We ran on the first two downs to take away their timeouts witch is the corret call. If you throw the ball there and imcomplete it, then you let them save their timeouts and witch puts more pressure on the defense. On third down we ran again to put our kicker in line for a chip shot, and milk around 40 seconds off the clock, again the right call. If he makes that it then forces ASU to go to the endzone on their last drive instead of just field goal range. I know some of you are going to say that we would of lost anyway, but I disagree. On that last play our defense was playing a zone, and trying to keep ASU from getting a shot at a closer field goal, not protecting the end zone. If we would of had a 6 point lead a that point, then all of our defenders would of been around the end zone, and then there would of been no way that that reciever would of been that open.

Bottom line is, We were in position to win that game, and we didnt. Why, missed field goal, dropped interceptions, and then letting a reciever get behind our defense at the worst possible time. Is that coaches fault?, I dont think so, is that players fault?, not really, its just poor execution, witch is something that can be fixed.

[SUMG]

You know, it looked like there at the end....that the worst case scenario for us, would be that the game would go into Overtime. IMHO, if we had taken that game into OT, and lost...it would have been much easier to handle, than losing the way we did.

That being said, one thing I love about this team: They haven't quit on Todd. I sort of expected us to be flat at the start of the game yesterday. We had the hangover effect from the Navy game...plus we had a short work week....and had to go on the road. But, our kids were ready to play. They weren't flat. That's a huge testament to TD and his staff.

Anyway, that was a tough loss to handle. But, I still have no doubts that Todd Dodge is going to lead us to some great places (bowl wins, rankings, etc).

[Dodge2007]

You know, it looked like there at the end....that the worst case scenario for us, would be that the game would go into Overtime. IMHO, if we had taken that game into OT, and lost...it would have been much easier to handle, than losing the way we did.

That being said, one thing I love about this team: They haven't quit on Todd. I sort of expected us to be flat at the start of the game yesterday. We had the hangover effect from the Navy game...plus we had a short work week....and had to go on the road. But, our kids were ready to play. They weren't flat. That's a huge testament to TD and his staff.

Anyway, that was a tough loss to handle. But, I still have no doubts that Todd Dodge is going to lead us to some great places (bowl wins, rankings, etc).

Great post and your dead on. That game showed that TD, staff, and players are all heart.

[buff64]

The famous prevent defense , rush three men which have no chance to put pressure on the QB, giving him time to pick and choose recievers. The DB's can only cover for so long, time after time I've seen the prevent fail. Sigh

[GoMeanGreen1999]

The famous prevent defense , rush three men which have no chance to put pressure on the QB, giving him time to pick and choose recievers. The DB's can only cover for so long, time after time I've seen the prevent fail. Sigh

All it seem to do is Prevent teams from winning - yet coaches all over this country use it like it is going out of style in the last portions of each half. On a side note, TD's comment in the DRC this morning might shed light on why they went to the Prevent defense as he alludes to the notion of all they expected ASU to do was the possibility of a field goal on the last drive.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

I thought we were conservative the whole game. We didn't take many shots downfield, it seemed. I know ASU has the most experienced secondary in the Belt, but I think maybe Ford and Dodge may have bought the hype a little too much.

On the other hand...ASU has the two top tacklers in Sun Belt history with their two safeties. The passes we completed were well defensed by those guys. The short week could have also effected the overall game plan.

By the way, the offensive linemen who were recruited for a run-based/play-action offense do seem to run block very well at times.

Edited November 16, 2007 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[GreenBat]

Hell must have froze over. TFLF posted something positive.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Hell must have froze over. TFLF posted something positive.

We finally played a game that was almost 100% positive. What's to complain about when everyone's on the same page? We played well enough to win in all four quarters. I mean, ASU was scrambling at the end of the game. I thought their coach had screwed up royally when, with :13 seconds left they attempted one more play instead of attempting the field goal.

But...it's been that kind of year for us. Dude gambled and his QB came through...although, I still think he stepped across the line.

I guess that's my only complaint. If Dodge hadn't wasted the challenge on the TD catch earlier in the game, and Vizza hadn't called the timeout while we were driving on one of the last FG drives, we'd have been able to challenge the play. Advice to Dodge: whoever is upstairs telling you to challenge...sit down and have a long talk with them...curse if you need to, too.

[Arkstfan]

Regarding ASU's final play. Only one receiver was sent to the end zone the rest were running routes along the sidelines to get in position to make a catch and get out of bounds to set-up a tying FG. Our fastest receiver was the one in the end zone and as Leonard broke away from the rush Tompkins just out ran the defender crossing the end zone to be wide open. If the UNT pressure had caused Leonard to roll to his right instead of his left the defender has a chance to make up the ground and have a shot to break-up the play

It was just one of those plays that happen. Everyone was covered well initially but a fast receiver can't be covered forever.

[meangreendork]

That being said, one thing I love about this team: They haven't quit on Todd. I sort of expected us to be flat at the start of the game yesterday. We had the hangover effect from the Navy game...plus we had a short work week....and had to go on the road. But, our kids were ready to play. They weren't flat. That's a huge testament to TD and his staff.

Anyway, that was a tough loss to handle. But, I still have no doubts that Todd Dodge is going to lead us to some great places (bowl wins, rankings, etc).

I caught the radio cast and up until that last minute, I swore we had the win. It's one of those games that came down to a toss up due to any number of things happening. But, as to Dodge being conservative? No, because he took what the defense gave, and since that became just the running game, he went with it. With that many guys in the secondary and as good as they are as a whole, it would've been a big risk to throw deep in the closing minutes of the game. What was a last-minute, bare win could've been ASU+14 or 21 had INTs been the result of throwing deep.

I know this season's record is ugly, but aside from the money games and Troy, there's always been an upside to the losses. And it's not just any, it's the kind of upside that says great things will happen with Dodge at the helm and his coaches and players with him.

Edited November 16, 2007 by meangreendork

[soccerguy59]

As I posted in another thread

I dont think TD went conservative in the second half as much as he just continued to do what he has done all year. His offensive philosophy is to take what the defense gives you, plain and simple. Tonight in the second half, they dropped 7 and 8 guys back into coverage and forced us to run the ball, which we did, and with good success. That is not going conservative, that is smart. If we would of tried throwing as much as we do into 7 and 8 defenders then this game would have got ugly with all the interceptions and incompletions.

At the end of the game TD made the right calls as well. Once we got down to the 14 yard line, there was just over two minutes left and ASU had two timeouts and we had a three point lead. We ran on the first two downs to take away their timeouts witch is the corret call. If you throw the ball there and imcomplete it, then you let them save their timeouts and witch puts more pressure on the defense. On third down we ran again to put our kicker in line for a chip shot, and milk around 40 seconds off the clock, again the right call. If he makes that it then forces ASU to go to the endzone on their last drive instead of just field goal range. I know some of you are going to say that we would of lost anyway, but I disagree. On that last play our defense was playing a zone, and trying to keep ASU from getting a shot at a closer field goal, not protecting the end zone. If we would of had a 6 point lead a that point, then all of our defenders would of been around the end zone, and then there would of been no way that that reciever would of been that open.

Bottom line is, We were in position to win that game, and we didnt. Why, missed field goal, dropped interceptions, and then letting a reciever get behind our defense at the worst possible time. Is that coaches fault?, I dont think so, is that players fault?, not really, its just poor execution, witch is something that can be fixed.

I agree, look at the stats, only 160 yds passing, 220 yds rushing. When did we have that many yds rushing this season? TD made adjustments and took what the defense was giving.

Edited November 16, 2007 by soccerguy59

[eulessismore]

Hell must have froze over. TFLF posted something positive.

Or perhaps, realistic. I agree with the implied assumption that negative posts are of little use as information; maybe they provide some release to those sending them-venting has it's purposes.

In a broader sense, I view this particular thread as being useful criticism, whether of those playing/coaching or of those forum members posting an opposite viewpoint. In other words, maybe some of us are arriving at that "clear headed" state Dodge once mentioned on his radio show. I would like to say I've considered TFLF as being negative; although I feel I should respect him due to his longer "tenure" on this board. I did appreciate a couple of his comments for reasons which I will state. I hope he'll forgive my references to high school play, but it is where we will continue to get most of our future players, perhaps even future coaches. I will disagree with earlier questions from TFLF as to whether or not coaches with no higher than high school experience can succeed at the college level. Case in point; Todd Ford. To balance that, I think I've detected some board member criticism of signing recruits from the JUCO ranks, as was a more common (perhaps too common) practice of the previous coaching staff. Cases in point, Omar Haugabook of Troy and Colt Brennan of Hawaii. From that perspective, I credit TFLF generally for defending the nonstereotypical student athlete, although reserving the right to disagree on particular ones. In short, I don't care as much where someone has been, as much as the direction they're headed. On to his comments in this thread:

He mentioned the respect given to the ASU secondaries, and the possibility it was excessive on the part of Dodge and Ford. In the Monday morning quarterbacking of last year's Euless Trinity-Southlake Carroll game, one of my coworkers who is involved in high school football mentioned the avoidance of Youri Yenga ( All State 1st Team Defensive Lineman, Dallas Morning News Defensive MVP, Fort Worth Star-Telegram) by the Carroll offense. As a Euless Trinity fan (keep winning, guys), I think that showed good judgment by Carroll (now UNT) offensive coaching staff, as Yenga still managed to make major plays, including a leap over Carroll offensive linemen to land on Riley Dodge's head. To touch briefly on the "prevent or not prevent" defense mentioned by others in this thread, I believe that Trinity was the first team to hold the Carroll offense to so few (22) points in 2006, BY IMPLEMENTING A THREE MAN RUSH, AND DROPPING EIGHT IN COVERAGE. Actually, good pressure on the quarterback resulted from that defensive scheme (receivers well covered, QB has to eat the ball?), and it also cut down on running yardage Riley had gotten in other games. Not to digress too much, but great tackling in the secondary IS SOMETHING FOR WHICH UNT FOOTBALL NEEDS TO GAIN RESPECT. If it is something ASU has that was taking away our deep passing game, let's learn something from them. If there is an underlying reluctance to attack the perceived strength of an opponent with actual strength of ours, i would consider that a legitimate criticism.

The other comment from TFLF which I appreciate is the praise of the offensive line, most of whom were recruited for run blocking. I've only watched 2 UNT games to completion this year, with MTSU and Navy, and , other than the quick (and early) score by J-MO in the MTSU game, didn't see enough of the running game to notice run blocking. Although the board seems pleased with the progress of the o-line during the season, I haven't concluded that offensive line play has been perceived as a traditional strength for UNT as it has here at Euless Trinity, which has made adjustments for early season injuries quite nicely, thank you. Please be aware that the stereotype of Trinity linemen as 300+ pound Tongans is not completely true, and that the athleticism of even our largest o-linemen might surprise many. Of course, I'd love to see a recruiting pipeline from Trinity to UNT that beats the ones to BYU and Arizona State, but mostly want an outstanding o-line as well as downfield blocking by skill players to become a UNT tradition. I'd love to see what other board members think will accomplish that in terms of profile of the type of o-line recruit, position needs for the next 1 to 4 years, recruiting pipelines, and development of o-line unit and players, once in the program.

Oh yes, for those who want to see some of our Euless Trinity Trojans in action (btw, they're playing great defense this year), they start playoff action tonight against Arlington Martin; 7:30 p.m., Nov. 16, Birdville Fine Arts Stadium (don't laugh, that "culture thing, yes including our players dancing the haka, is a way I keep my wife interested).

[Eagle1855]

although, I still think he stepped across the line.

I do too. Said that when it happened. I was thinking, well they have to review it so hopefully it gets overturned. No such luck. Either way, never should have come down to it.

[Monkeypox]

I thought we were conservative the whole game. We didn't take many shots downfield, it seemed. I know ASU has the most experienced secondary in the Belt, but I think maybe Ford and Dodge may have bought the hype a little too much.

I agree. It's one thing to take what a defense gives you, but allowing them to dictate how you play and take you out of YOUR game before you even step out on the field is a mistake.

I liked the adjustment to some degree and especially at the end of the game, because it showed our offensive playcalling HAS developed throughout the season, and it was apparent that Todge and company wanted to slow down the game some with us in the lead. Letting teams like Navy score quickly to end the half (TWO possessions in very little time) and continually backing out of FG range early on this year have hurt, and they wanted to avoid these scenarios. Unfortunately, though, you still have to try and knock your opponents out, and we ALL KNOW how our defense is.

Oh, and if you're going to get conservative with your offense and take what they're giving you, then you need to have a few more traditional (read: NOT SHOTGUN) sets, especially when you're pounding the ball late in the game.

[Mad Hatter]

If by "Getting too Conservative" you mean should Dodge have been throwing more instead of running, I'd say the answer is no. I did think that they should have gone for it on 4th and 3 (?) rather than try the field goal. If you get the Field Goal you are still putting your D in a situation where they HAVE to come up with a stop to win the game. If we go for it and either get the 1st down at the 2 yard line or get the touchdown, you essentially put the game away. If you go for it on 4th and don't get it, ASU would have to go 95 yards to get the win.

Plus if you get the Field Goal, you have to kick off, and risk a big return putting them in good field position. Of the 3 parts of the team (Offense, Defense, and Special Teams) I have the most confidence in our Offense to get 3 or 4 yards......especailly with our success on the ground.

Oh well.......there's a reason I'm not a coach.

[FirefightnRick]

You know, it looked like there at the end....that the worst case scenario for us, would be that the game would go into Overtime. IMHO, if we had taken that game into OT, and lost...it would have been much easier to handle, than losing the way we did.

That being said, one thing I love about this team: They haven't quit on Todd. I sort of expected us to be flat at the start of the game yesterday. We had the hangover effect from the Navy game...plus we had a short work week....and had to go on the road. But, our kids were ready to play. They weren't flat. That's a huge testament to TD and his staff.

Anyway, that was a tough loss to handle. But, I still have no doubts that Todd Dodge is going to lead us to some great places (bowl wins, rankings, etc).

Good post.

Rick

[Guest 97and03]

At the end of the game TD made the right calls as well. Once we got down to the 14 yard line, there was just over two minutes left and ASU had two timeouts and we had a three point lead. We ran on the first two downs to take away their timeouts witch is the corret call. If you throw the ball there and imcomplete it, then you let them save their timeouts and witch puts more pressure on the defense. On third down we ran again to put our kicker in line for a chip shot, and milk around 40 seconds off the clock, again the right call. If he makes that it then forces ASU to go to the endzone on their last drive instead of just field goal range. I know some of you are going to say that we would of lost anyway, but I disagree. On that last play our defense was playing a zone, and trying to keep ASU from getting a shot at a closer field goal, not protecting the end zone. If we would of had a 6 point lead a that point, then all of our defenders would of been around the end zone, and then there would of been no way that that reciever would of been that open.

I agree with most of your post. I think that running on first and second down was the right call, as you said to cause them to burn their timeouts. But I do think that considering the lack of wins this year, Dodge should have just gone for it on third and fourth. I don't think that field goal should have ever crossed the coach's mind. That was a great opportunity to seal the game and build some momentum for the end of the season - which builds momentum for recruiting and the next season. With really nothing to lose, why not just go for it? Throw on third and fourth, if that is what would have gotten into the endzone. Or run. Or whatever. Even if you failed, it would have sent a strong signal that the coach wanted that win. I know that they did want the win, but playing for the field goal was a bit timid for this type of season.

Edited November 16, 2007 by 97and03

[Arkstfan]

I agree with most of your post. I think that running on first and second down was the right call, as you said to cause them to burn their timeouts. But I do think that considering the lack of wins this year, Dodge should have just gone for it on third and fourth. I don't think that field goal should have ever crossed the coach's mind. That was a great opportunity to seal the game and build some momentum for the end of the season - which builds momentum for recruiting and the next season. With really nothing to lose, why not just go for it? Throw on third and fourth, if that is what would have gotten into the endzone. Or run. Or whatever. Even if you failed, it would have sent a strong signal that the coach wanted that win. I know that they did want the win, but playing for the field goal was a bit timid for this type of season.

Here's the ASU take on the final UNT possession.

http://www.arkst.com/board/index.php?topic=33513.0

It was similar to a situation ASU had at NC State in 2000. We opted to go for it on fourth and didn't make it. They got into FG range and sent the game to double OT and we lost. Despite the out come I still think we made the right call out there because Phillip Rivers was HOT in the second half and had no trouble covering the ground needed for the tying FG, NC State actually got a tad conservative and didn't push for the end zone on the final drive because they knew their odds in OT being at home were very good.

[3XNTGRAD]

You know, this thread has restored some of my faith in the board. Honestly, I was a little afraid to get on today because of some of the meltdowns I've seen on the board earlier in the year following losses.

It is a nice surprise to see that many of you saw a lot of the same positives I saw in a game that I felt was well played by our guys, but we just came up short in the end. If only the score for the first 59:58 mattered instead of that stinkin' last 2 seconds!

Like for much of this season, I choose to look at the progress we are making toward a brighter future. Yesterday showed a few more glimpses of that future, and I am 100% behind this team.

See you at Fouts on the 24th!