The Race Card

[MeanGreenBuzz]

She came to American legally, got a green card, learned English, got a job and worked. And worked. And worked. She worked like a Mexican. Is that racist? No. Go to a restaurant or store staffed with Mexicans and compare their service and attitude to that of your typical American teen or low-wage worker. Give me a Mexican everytime. Friendly, fast, and generally happy to see you.

All hail the truck full of Mexicans!

I couldn't agree more. Because of where I work I deal with Mexicans as 75% of my customer base (legal and otherwise) and I can say they are some of the most honest, friendly, hard working people I encounter.

[PHSCoach]

My guess, as posted elsewhere, is simply that the make up of this coaching staff and its lack of dealing with college athletes has probably created a more segmented locker room than necessary.

I think that's the bottom line. This staff has to learn how to deal with everybody at their level. It's what Jesus did. Let's do what Jesus did.

How in the hell did the locker room get segmented. This has nothing to do with the players interaction

[GreenMachine]

Racism exists at all levels towards all groups. It is ridiculous to think it exists only toward minorities or a select group. My best friend is Jewish and you haven't seen racism until you've seen how he's been treated and heard the comments he's had made to his face. I'm Irish and I have had negative comments made to me, Jesse Jackson has a bad habit of calling white people honkies and so does Al Sharpton, so it does exist, just not as one sided as people like to believe.

[RamoneArchie]

Racism exists at all levels towards all groups. It is ridiculous to think it exists only toward minorities or a select group. My best friend is Jewish and you haven't seen racism until you've seen how he's been treated and heard the comments he's had made to his face. I'm Irish and I have had negative comments made to me, Jesse Jackson has a bad habit of calling white people honkies and so does Al Sharpton, so it does exist, just not as one sided as people like to believe.

Very true.

[UNTflyer]

Prejudice exists, yes. And anyone who claims not to be prejudiced is full of crap. However "racism", which is the belief that a race is inherently inferior to your own, is a dying idea in America and across the civilized world. But prejudice mindsets happen in both directions across the racial divide. Visit an Asian country and see how whites are treated. I think it makes you understand, just a little bit, what it's like to be a minority in America.

The key is that as human beings, 99.9% of the time we can overcome our hardwired bias towards things that are different or unfamiliar to us. The sooner we realize that prejudism is ingrained into the human subconcious (and not a character flaw), the sooner we can begin to deal with it.

As for Mr. Green.... grow up! Take responsibility for your own actions... it sounds to me as though you were suspended for insubordination, or just being a jerk.

"I am suspended indefinitely for saying, 'We are from the hood,' on the sideline," Green said.

Nobody gets suspended for something like that. And I suspect Green is taking advantage of Dodge's policy of not disclosing the reason for suspending a player. Green gets to strut around like he's the cock of the walk and make these allegations, hoping that the might of the NAACP will somehow grant him a spot on the team that he obviously doesn't deserve.

Green achieved his goal. Instead of talking about the real issue that got him suspended, we're talking about contrived racism.

[Mean Green 93-98]

Flyer, you talkin' 'bout racism?

[UNTflyer]

Flyer, you talkin' 'bout racism?

Quoner will be proud.

[KRAM1]

Be careful...be very careful.

[EagleMBA]

Thank you, Coach Archie, and thank you, Flyer for two thought-provoking posts.

[Got5onIt]

Just more fuel to the fire of an already dismal season. I hope everything works out and NT doesn't suffer. I can't help but wonder how much frustration exists between the current coaching staff and it's players? People handle situations in different ways, & DG unfortunately went this route. Is the locker room in a state of unrest? Have the coaches "lost" many of it's upperclassmen????

Edited October 30, 2007 by Got5onIt

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Racism exists at all levels towards all groups. It is ridiculous to think it exists only toward minorities or a select group. My best friend is Jewish and you haven't seen racism until you've seen how he's been treated and heard the comments he's had made to his face. I'm Irish and I have had negative comments made to me, Jesse Jackson has a bad habit of calling white people honkies and so does Al Sharpton, so it does exist, just not as one sided as people like to believe.

Dear GreenMachine,

I don't know what a honkey is, but I am one. Or, I am one?

Love,

The Fake Lonnie Finch

P.S. - Quite by accident, I've discovered that Mr. Pibb Xtra is better than regular, run-of-the-mill Mr. Pibb. And, I discovered this despite being a honky.

[Quoner]

Prejudice exists, yes. And anyone who claims not to be prejudiced is full of crap. However "racism", which is the belief that a race is inherently inferior to your own, is a dying idea in America and across the civilized world. But prejudice mindsets happen in both directions across the racial divide. Visit an Asian country and see how whites are treated. I think it makes you understand, just a little bit, what it's like to be a minority in America.

The key is that as human beings, 99.9% of the time we can overcome our hardwired bias towards things that are different or unfamiliar to us. The sooner we realize that prejudism is ingrained into the human subconcious (and not a character flaw), the sooner we can begin to deal with it.

As for Mr. Green.... grow up! Take responsibility for your own actions... it sounds to me as though you were suspended for insubordination, or just being a jerk.

Nobody gets suspended for something like that. And I suspect Green is taking advantage of Dodge's policy of not disclosing the reason for suspending a player. Green gets to strut around like he's the cock of the walk and make these allegations, hoping that the might of the NAACP will somehow grant him a spot on the team that he obviously doesn't deserve.

Green achieved his goal. Instead of talking about the real issue that got him suspended, we're talking about contrived racism.

That was a loooong post.

But it was good.

[mitchmaher]

Hey Everybody,

I received an email from a member of GoMeanGreen asking if I'd comment on this whole race issue. There's nothing deep or provocative here, simply two responses I've given today.

First, in response to the article in the Denton Record Chronicle, I sent this email to Brett Vito (originally it was sent only to him, but I post it here as he and I've talked on the phone today)

Hey Brett,

Whether you intended it or not, your article this morning in the Denton Record Chronicle raises questions in readers' minds there in the Denton area (and around the world—for those of us who read online) that my good friend Clayton George might possibly be a racist. I was disappointed to read it, and feel for him as his character is now in question with thousands of readers.

Well, he's not a racist, and it's sad we'll have to wait on an NAACP investigation and follow up article in the Denton Record Chronicle to find out.

When it's all said and done, I hope you'll let your readers know.

Take care,

Mitch Maher

UNT Quarterback, 1991-1994

Second, in response to a phone call from Brett regarding my email and a follow-up story he's going to do, I told him essentially this—"I've known Clayton since 1991 and Coach Dodge since 1992, and neither has ever done or said anything that would make me believe there is a racist bone in their body. I'm disappointed that their character regarding this issue has been called into question, and I look forward to seeing it resolved."

These guys are class acts—even if they don't always open up to the public as some might hope—and I'm proud to know and associate with them. This season hasn't turned out as they hoped, but they are headed in the right direction and the future is bright for UNT football.

Take care, and I hope to see some of you in Jonesboro on November 15.

Mitch Maher

[Mean Green 93-98]

Mitch, I appreciate your defense of the coaches. I imagine a number of people will be questioning whether the UNT coaching staff is racist following that writeup.

Hope to see you in Jonesboro!

[PlummMeanGreen]

For those who are newbies or just trolling GoMeanGreen.com, it should be pointed out that Ramone Archie is an African American, a former (very talented) Mean Green football player and also a former UNT assistant football coach pre-Todd Dodge era in Mean Green Country.

And for your posting of this thread and your thoughts, Coach Archie...........a hearty and most sincere appreciation from your fellow alums and the Mean Green Nation. We all hope all is well for you in all your endeavors because after all........you are one of us who gives a d@mn about our alma mater and specifically, its football program.

Coach Dodge and his staff are not racist! And yes all race cards should have expired in the USA already. One problem though, racism still exists in every part of our society. I'm not a big activist or anything, but the majority of our nation is blind to this issue. Just because we're in the year 2007 we don't think racism exists anymore. It exists and will alway exist. I know i'm going to catch slack for this, and this post really doesnt belong on this board. It just bothers me that people who aren't racist seem to say the people use the race card too often. If it wasn't in the deck then it couldn't be played. Do you realize that the last legal lynching was in 1957? Only 50 years ago! There was a school in Geogia that, as of last year, just had it's first intergrated prom. I think that had to do more with music preference than racism, but we still let it go on. I can't remember a single incident in my life where I think I was unfairly treated because I was black. I think for the majority of my life it's been an advantage to be black, at least for me. So, I'm not bitter about being mistreated or anything. Even though I haven't been discriminated against I'm still not so naive to say that it doesn't exist. We all live in this Ameritopia where we believe the darkest part of our history (slavery/racism), has finally been overcome. The reality is our country won't ever fully recover from that part of our history. I know for a fact that Coach Dodge is not racist, and i'm pretty sure George isn't either. Let me use this example. A racist remark is kind of like a sexual harrasement remark. We might say something or do something that to us doesnt' sound wrong, but who are we to tell someone else how they should feel? I'm going to end on this. Coach Dodge is an High Class Individual and he would only have those types of individuals on his staff. I think this has more to do with a 1 win season and frustration then anything.

Edited October 30, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[GreenMachine]

Dear GreenMachine,

I don't know what a honkey is, but I am one. Or, I am one?

Love,

The Fake Lonnie Finch

P.S. - Quite by accident, I've discovered that Mr. Pibb Xtra is better than regular, run-of-the-mill Mr. Pibb. And, I discovered this despite being a honky.

I'm not sure, all I know is I'm a drunk, Irish cracker.

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

Quite by accident, I've discovered that Mr. Pibb Xtra is better than regular, run-of-the-mill Mr. Pibb.

Finch, your elitist sensibilities regarding the TRUE AND ORIGINAL Mr. Pibb are way off target! Pibb Xtra is an abomination. I have tried to find the ORIGINAL, and I believe it was still produced in Mississippi for a period after Pibb %#@& Xtra was spawned, but it appears it is no more altogether. The 'Xtra', whatever it consists of, ruined a great taste. Please note that they removed the 'Mr.' from Pibb Xtra, so it is not even clear what sex this pretender is, though it is clear it is not worthy of any such respectful prefatory reference.

On a more serious note (OK I am actually pretty seriously disappointed about the demise of MR. Pibb), thanks to Ramone and others who posted their honest opinions about a sensitive topic. Maybe through such dialogue the topic will ultimately become less sensitive.

[MeanGreenEngineer]

I agree that Dodge and his staff are not racist. But they have not learned how to deal with these young men.

I have heard rumbling of this, especially from some player parents.

You have to coach a 16 year old differently that you do a 20 year old.

Not everyone here comes from the same background and neighborhoods like they did at SLC.

[NT80]

Mitch, I appreciate your defense of the coaches. I imagine a number of people will be questioning whether the UNT coaching staff is racist following that writeup.

Yes, thanks Mitch for your comments and direct knowledge of the coaches. I also feel this article and incident may cast a negative light on the program just by the introduction of the subject matter. There may have been misunderstanding by one party or the other on the context of the statements involved? I always thought "hood" was just short or slang for neighborhood and never really associated it as meaning thug-like, but I guess some might. Anyway, I hope it's all resolved VERY quickly so recruits and the program are not affected more than they have been, it's already been a tough enough season!

[MeanGreenEngineer]

I'm sorry but I think it shows far more about your connotation of the word "hood" than what can reasonably be assumed from Green's words. If the word "hood" conjures up images of drugs, killings and listlessness in your head then perhaps less of a eurocentric sheltered life is in order?

People from, and let me use quotes here, "the hood" often use the term to mean that someone from "the hood" is tough and knows how to take care of business because they were raised to know they couldn't count on someone else bailing them out. It can be a complement.

I don't think the coaching staff is racist. I do think that there was a miscommunication between a coach and a player because the coach and player come from different backgrounds.

Add in the fact that these two are tough, competitive minded individuals, add the stress of losing, and things get out of hand quick.

[AnotherEagleFan]

I'm a white male. White as a cracker. Born in white Abilene, Texas in 1969. I grew up in a white, upper middle class suburb of North Dallas.

I get your point.. But a Cracker goes back to slavery and means "the sorry B@$^*% who cracks the whip" it is not a blanket term for the white man. Not a good term...

[Guest JohnDenver]

I get your point.. But a Cracker goes back to slavery and means "the sorry B@$^*% who cracks the whip" it is not a blanket term for the white man. Not a good term...

The origins of the term "cracker" are unknown but the word is considered to refer white people racially. There are multiple theories to explain where it came from. [1]One theory reports that the term dates back to slavery in the antebellum South. Slaver foremen used bullwhips to discipline African slaves, and the sound the whip being described as 'cracking the whip'. The foremen who cracked these whips were thus known as 'crackers'. [2][3][4] Another whip-related theory holds that "cracker" is linked to early Florida cattle herders (Florida crackers) that traditionally used whips to herd wild Spanish cattle. These cowboys were distinct from the Spanish vaqueros of Florida. The crack of the herders' whips could be heard for great distances when they were used to round cattle in pens and to keep the cows on a given track.

Yet another theory derives from the term "cracker" being long used to describe braggarts. In the 1760s a loosely organized gang of horse thieves and slave nappers operated in the Carolinas. The earliest reference to them is from a letter dated June 27, 1766 from Gavin Cochrane to the Earl of Dartmouth in which Cochrane writes that this "lawless set of rascalls" were called "crackers" on account of their "being great boasters". [5]

Seems like the origin is unknown to me. Let's not get too sensitive

[foutsrouts]

I have heard rumbling of this, especially from some player parents.

You have to coach a 16 year old differently that you do a 20 year old.

Not everyone here comes from the same background and neighborhoods like they did at SLC.

I was kind of thinking along those lines as well. I guess it's possible that many of the coaches on this team have grown accustomed to treating their players a little more like kids than as adults, and that Green may have misconstrued this treatment as being racist. I seriously doubt that this incident had anything to do with racism, but maybe learning how to deal with grown men instead of kids is just another transition some of our staff is going to have to go through.

On the other hand, Green may just be a jerk looking for attention. Contacting the NAACP to look into an incident such as this sounds to me like overkill at best. I guess you really have to know the characters involved on a personal level to be able to make a judgement on what's really going on here. Either way, I think Vito went a little too far with his article. No reason to create a cloud when it's very likely that one doesn't exist.

[DeepGreen]

Racism exists at all levels towards all groups. It is ridiculous to think it exists only toward minorities or a select group. My best friend is Jewish and you haven't seen racism until you've seen how he's been treated and heard the comments he's had made to his face. I'm Irish and I have had negative comments made to me, Jesse Jackson has a bad habit of calling white people honkies and so does Al Sharpton, so it does exist, just not as one sided as people like to believe.

I'm of Sicilian desent. When people make remarks about my ancestry or Sicilians/Italians in general, I usually have them whacked.

Edited October 30, 2007 by DeepGreen

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Finch, your elitist sensibilities regarding the TRUE AND ORIGINAL Mr. Pibb are way off target! Pibb Xtra is an abomination. I have tried to find the ORIGINAL, and I believe it was still produced in Mississippi for a period after Pibb %#@& Xtra was spawned, but it appears it is no more altogether. The 'Xtra', whatever it consists of, ruined a great taste. Please note that they removed the 'Mr.' from Pibb Xtra, so it is not even clear what sex this pretender is, though it is clear it is not worthy of any such respectful prefatory reference.

I bow to you. You are a true expert in all things Pibb. I accidentally tried some and didn't really get a good look at the bottle. I'm a little suspicious now that I know they've dropped "Mr." Sounds too PC.

Anyway, I've moved Pibb Xtra into my Top 5 soft drinks:

(1) Pepsi - Red, White, and Blue...obviously the drink, then, for Americans and Texans (you Communists and Marxists go ahead with your Coca-Cola and its Red theme)

(2) Root Beer - it don't care which brand, just give me one

(3) RC

(4) Fanta Orange

(5) Pibb Xtra