Here's A Controversial Topic For This Board

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 4, 2007

Oh? Arkansas has one of the best running games in the nation and..............how are they doing again?

2 words: Houston Nutt

Got5onIt · October 5, 2007

One thing you have to realize is that the top teams in the nation can run if they have to. You don't see a lot of traditional I & pro form stuff with the FB being almost "eliminated" from todays game, but teams still run from specific ace formations.

Pure spread offenses are being stopped by most of the top programs.

OldTimer · October 5, 2007

One thing you have to realize is that the top teams in the nation can run if they have to. You don't see a lot of traditional I & pro form stuff with the FB being almost "eliminated" from todays game, but teams still run from specific ace formations.
Pure spread offenses are being stopped by most of the top programs.

IF you are a run, run team you better not get behind. I can remember when NEB played in a major bowl game a few years ago ....and got behind....that is one reason they changed. Whereas in a spread you can come back very fast. To be a consistent winner in either style of play you MUST have an outstanding ( read that very fast) defense.

the green rokemi · October 5, 2007

I'll be honest, the old school was better...and by old school I mean the old Hunter "Mean" Green. Once the school switched to the new Kelly "girlie" Green we have sucked. Let me break it down further -

Hunter = something that kills things

Kelly = a name typically given to girls

When it comes to football which would you choose? Even Spock wouldn't argue this logic.

Mean Green 93-98 · October 5, 2007

So you believe that Nebraska would still be winning NC's running the offense they were? If that is the case, why did they remove Frank Solich as the head coach after he took over for Osborn?

But they WEREN'T winning. They didn't change for the sake of change. Those were great teams, yes, but that was a decade ago, and they stopped winning.

Frank Solich was fired after a 9-3 season, a level of success that Callahan has not yet attained with his West Coast Offense. The reason Solich was fired was because he had to coach at a school where everyone expected NCs. But to say that Nebraska updated their offense because they weren't winning is simply not accurate.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Mean Green 93-98

Arkstfan · October 5, 2007

I am telling you that defenses have figured out the Spread Offense. It ain't fooling nobody no more (bad grammar intended). I am still very hopeful and high on Dodge not necessarily because of his offense but because of the quality of coach he is and recruiting ability. Great athletes win games no matter what the system. I am counting on Dodge bringing in great athletes and knowing how to coach them. His relationship with the fans is also a great plus.

ASU added some hurry up no huddle this year. We became the first Sun Belt team to score more than 10 on Texas and the first to score three times against them and by moving the ball it allowed us to be the first to hold them under 27. It let us become the first Sun Belt opponent to score more than field goal on Tennessee set the stage to score 22 of the 29 points scored against Memphis in under 16 minutes.

Arkstfan · October 5, 2007

There is no question that the best spread teams can run.

Florida is 18th in rushing offense, West Virginia 3rd, Louisville 24, Boise 29, Tulsa 39th

But look at the teams that can run but can't pass.

ULL 9th in rushing 107th in passing

ULM 17th in rushing 117 passing

Arkansas 1st in rushing 97th in passing

Being a one-trick pony won't elevate you to the top in the nation, see Texas Tech and Hawaii. In both cases superior talent still beats them they just destroy inferior talent.

But 25 years ago if you were a great running team that didn't pass well you could find significant success but a team that passed great and couldn't run generally didn't perform well. That's been flipped.

The best teams can still run effectively but having a dominating ground game is not nearly as vital as it once was.

Got5onIt · October 5, 2007

There is no question that the best spread teams can run.
Florida is 18th in rushing offense, West Virginia 3rd, Louisville 24, Boise 29, Tulsa 39th
But look at the teams that can run but can't pass.
ULL 9th in rushing 107th in passing
ULM 17th in rushing 117 passing
Arkansas 1st in rushing 97th in passing
Being a one-trick pony won't elevate you to the top in the nation, see Texas Tech and Hawaii. In both cases superior talent still beats them they just destroy inferior talent.
But 25 years ago if you were a great running team that didn't pass well you could find significant success but a team that passed great and couldn't run generally didn't perform well. That's been flipped.
The best teams can still run effectively but having a dominating ground game is not nearly as vital as it once was.

Great post.

One thing that can't be ignored about an "effective" running game is that it can eat up clock, protect a lead, and wear down a defense. You don't need to be a wishbone team to see the advantages.

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 5, 2007

Frank Solich was fired after a 9-3 season, a level of success that Callahan has not yet attained with his West Coast Offense. The reason Solich was fired was because he had to coach at a school where everyone expected NCs. But to say that Nebraska updated their offense because they weren't winning is simply not accurate.

Well they won NC's with Osborn and then Solich came in and in 6 years running the same offense, didn't win any. Was that because of the offense or coaching, don't know, but probably a little of both.

Great post.
One thing that can't be ignored about an "effective" running game is that it can eat up clock, protect a lead, and wear down a defense. You don't need to be a wishbone team to see the advantages.

I agree completely.

meangreendork · October 5, 2007

Great post.
One thing that can't be ignored about an "effective" running game is that it can eat up clock, protect a lead, and wear down a defense. You don't need to be a wishbone team to see the advantages.

Back when UNT was a physically better team than the rest of the SBC, that's exactly what happened. The RBs chewed up the turf, scored, killed time...and when tied with a strong D, you couldn't pass or run your way through it unless you had better physical players.

Coach · October 5, 2007

A running game played at its top level beats a spread attack played at its top level every time.

What if you run out of the spread?

October 5, 2007

I don't think our Spread Offense is the problem. It's the Spread Defense.

SLCoutsider · October 5, 2007

Here's a controversial statement for the board. A running game played at its top level beats a spread attack played at its top level every time.

Whoever said a running game and a spread are mutually exclusive? A common misconception around here seems to be that a spread offense is all about passing. A succesful spread relies just as much on a strong running game. It's a totally balanced system. "Spread" the players across the width of the field to open the defense, assess the coverage, then take what they give you. If that means running it 30 times per game, then that's fine. It's still a spread.

Got5onIt · October 5, 2007

Whoever said a running game and a spread are mutually exclusive? A common misconception around here seems to be that a spread offense is all about passing. A succesful spread relies just as much on a strong running game. It's a totally balanced system. "Spread" the players across the width of the field to open the defense, assess the coverage, then take what they give you. If that means running it 30 times per game, then that's fine. It's still a spread.

Balanced system?????Pro style teams can run out of singleback (ace tight, ace 3 wide, & ace 4 wide, etc) but still are not considered spread offenses.

I've only ever heard of 2 types of Spread offenses. The Spread Option incorporates some form of a running game, just not out of "traditional" sets. It is still a pass first system. The true Spread has no running game, period. Check Hawaii, Texas Tech, NMSU, & North Texas. Yes, they still run some form of the "draw" to try and catch defenses off balance, but a running attack is NOT in the gameplan. Most true Spread teams substitute the running game with screens & quick outs.

What's really mind boggling is that I haven't seen many of these types of plays from NT?? Is our QB's arm too weak to throw the quick out? Regarding screens, why can't we use Jmo more in these types of plays? Hell, it could be as simple as Dodge just doesn't use these types of plays too often.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Got5onIt

LongJim · October 5, 2007

A dominating run game is not vital, but as has been alluded to--you have to be able to pick up first downs and short yardage consistently using the run. If you can't do that, your offense is limited, and any passing offense will have more difficulty getting first downs with the pass, as well as scoring touchdowns in the zone. The other thing I agree with in this thread is that the defense has to be able to get 3 and outs. It does no good to score 40 points per game if you give up 42. One reason Tech will continue to struggle against better opponents.

Censored by Laurie · October 5, 2007

Oh? Arkansas has one of the best running games in the nation and..............how are they doing again?

I heard they won their last game by 59 points so it seems like they're playing pretty well.

I keep reading that people think Dodge's spread...or any spread...is meant to "fool" a defense. Its not...its just an offensive philosophy designed to create mismatches with the defense and exploit its weaknesses. It requires execution and players who understand the system the same way a wishbone offense does.

SLCoutsider · October 5, 2007

The true Spread has no running game, period. Check Hawaii, Texas Tech, NMSU, & North Texas.

I won't argue that there are variations of the spread that don't/can't run much. But I still contend that a "true" spread is balanced. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_offense ...

The fundamental nature of the spread offense involves spreading the field horizontally using 3, 4, and even 5-receiver sets, as well as wide splits between the offensive linemen. This opens up multiple vertical gaps for both the running and passing game to exploit, as the defense is forced to spread itself thin across the field to cover everyone.

PlummMeanGreen · October 5, 2007

I heard they won their last game by 59 points so it seems like they're playing pretty well.
I keep reading that people think Dodge's spread...or any spread...is meant to "fool" a defense. Its not...its just an offensive philosophy designed to create mismatches with the defense and exploit its weaknesses. It requires execution and players who understand the system the same way a wishbone offense does.

And more players are on the way...

Patience, fans, patience...it's only Game 5 of the DodgeBall Era. Instant success would be preferred by fans of any football program, but thats not what is on the menu at many D1-A outposts starting almost from scratch; but rather...

...lets allow TDodge to build something bigger and better than our past success (w/o rankings) from a newly formed Sun Belt Conference; lets give him the necessary time he needs to tear down a bad bridge that we found out the last 2 years was a bad bridge in order for him and his staff to build a better and more solid one; that is, a Mean Green football program worthy of Top 25 ranking's this time around in Mean Green Country.

We as NT Exes/Mean Green fans deserve no less considering the last 2 1/2 decades many of us have witnessed (and that without "one' Top 25 ranked Mean Green football team).

Edited October 5, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

UNT_92_Fan · October 5, 2007

What if you run out of the spread?

TOUCHE COACH TOUCHE....

This isn't controversial in my book... now back to britney suicide watch...

PlummMeanGreen · October 5, 2007

ASU added some hurry up no huddle this year. We became the first Sun Belt team to score more than 10 on Texas and the first to score three times against them and by moving the ball it allowed us to be the first to hold them under 27. It let us become the first Sun Belt opponent to score more than field goal on Tennessee set the stage to score 22 of the 29 points scored against Memphis in under 16 minutes.

Of course, you are talking the SBC Era, but some of us remember scoring 14 on Texas (they scored 17 mostly because of Earl Campbell) and that was when Darrell K. Royal was the Longhorn coach and then others remember a Mean Green win over U of Tennessee; but of course, that is before we raised our standards and went Big Time by becoming charter members of the Sun Belt Conference. :rolleyes: (This Baby Boomer can get a bit sarcastic when he wants to--but I do know you were talking "the SBC Era", counsel).

May we all become Top 25 football programs, Arkstfan. Wouldn't Frank Broyles turn over in his grave if ASU were in it and the Hogs were not?!?!? Whoops! I'm sorry, he's still among us and is the UA AD, right? (BTW, good luck to your Indians this Saturday).

OK, folks, I'm going to get some breakfast and get some sugar in my blood which will make me lose all the sarcasm--well, at least, most of it anyway! :lol:

Edited October 5, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

the real grad88 · October 5, 2007

To Arkstfan, I would say that you did much better against UT than other Belt schools have done because your teams athleticism has improved that much, not because of some different scheme you guys employed.

To Plumm, I would say that you should not take this thread to mean that I am impatient with Dodge or am losing faith. I just wanted to shake up the board with some good football talk. I love talking Old School/New School. I really wish we had a time machine to bring back one of the old Nebraska teams with Oak Trees for Olinemen and race cars for RBs PLUS a true killer defense and see what would happen with the best the new offense has to offer....me thinks I know what would happen...

SLCoutsider · October 5, 2007

To Arkstfan, I would say that you did much better against UT than other Belt schools have done because your teams athleticism has improved that much, not because of some different scheme you guys employed.
To Plumm, I would say that you should not take this thread to mean that I am impatient with Dodge or am losing faith. I just wanted to shake up the board with some good football talk. I love talking Old School/New School. I really wish we had a time machine to bring back one of the old Nebraska teams with Oak Trees for Olinemen and race cars for RBs PLUS a true killer defense and see what would happen with the best the new offense has to offer....me thinks I know what would happen...

grad88, I kind of get what you're saying. But, assuming that time warp was possible, what would you do after transporting that Nebraska offense from the early '80s to the present? How would you "see what would happen with the best the new offense has to offer"? The old offense and the new offense won't be on the field at the same time, so how do you see who is better? Are you saying that, given the same defensive competition, the old offense would do better?

Maybe, maybe not. I think the pass-oriented offense is just an evolution of the game. Coaches finally figured out that, with enough training at the skill positions, the passing game can be very effective at the HS and College levels.

When I was in HS, our team rarely passed. When we did attempt a pass, it was usually a joke. Either A) the QB made a bad throw, B ) the pass hit the receiver in the back, or C) the receiver dropped the pass. So we stuck with the wishbone option. Most HS coaches wanted to keep it very simple back then, so mediocrity was bred into the passing game.

The success of the spread at the HS level in recent years proves that it was just a matter of training at the skill positions. Given proper training and reps, HS (& college) kids can execute a virtually mistake-free passing game. If you watch any of the good spread teams at the HS level, they rarely make the mistakes that I mentioned above. Again, I think this was an evolution. Offenses are forever better now because they can rely on an effective passing game in addition to the running game to create a balanced attack that is difficult to stop.

Edited October 5, 2007 by SLCoutsider

Coach · October 5, 2007

The true Spread has no running game, period.

"Spread" just means spread the field. You can run just about any style of offense using this idea of multiple receivers, and in some cases, wide line splits. It doesn't mean run or pass, it's just how you align to do it.