Vizza Vs. Meager

emmitt01 · October 5, 2007

And, full of crap.
I know Meager has no points against OU and UA. I know Vizza has 17. REALLY, it doesn't make that much difference to me. I DON'T CARE WHO STARTS. 17 points is of no significance to me. I just want a football team to be proud of and the difference in QB's won't do that for me.
We aren't going to turn those losses into respectability with something as simple as a QB change.

Here's what I just plain don't get with some of you people. Rather than look at the possibility of solving one of our problems...albeit the "smaller" one on everyone's radar...you would rather summarily discount it because it isn't the biggest issue in your eyes. Please tell me how, if we have a laundry list of things to improve, improving the QB position makes it any harder or in any detracts from the ability to fix the other problems. Will putting the better QB out there make the defense better? No. Will it make it impossible to make the defense better? No. Bottom line is, it's possible to have it both ways...why can't we fix the defense (the big problem) AND fix the QB position?

I'll wait.........................

MeanMag · October 5, 2007

Here's what I just plain don't get with some of you people. Rather than look at the possibility of solving one of our problems...albeit the "smaller" one on everyone's radar...you would rather summarily discount it because it isn't the biggest issue in your eyes. Please tell me how, if we have a laundry list of things to improve, improving the QB position makes it any harder or in any detracts from the ability to fix the other problems. Will putting the better QB out there make the defense better? No. Will it make it impossible to make the defense better? No. Bottom line is, it's possible to have it both ways...why can't we fix the defense (the big problem) AND fix the QB position?
I'll wait.........................

The answer is, you wouldn't be fixing it. I pray to god Vizza is the guy everyone says he is. Right now, I haven't seen it.

Meager Vizza

TD 4 1

INT 8 3

Comp % 63.5 32.4

YDS / Att. 6.47 6.54

QB rating 116.2 80.1

Here's what I don't get with you, Emmitt. You act like it's as clear as day which one should start. AND IT'S NOT. It's not worth arguing. It's so damn close and not even relevant. Leave the fact that there are other huge problems out and you still have an irrelevant topic/argument.

You are trading one problem (which really isn't a problem at all) for another when it really makes no difference, other than one has played before and one hasn't.

I don't even understand why you want him to be the starter. What difference does it make if he takes the first snap of the 1st quarter, or the 1st snap of the 3rd? You will see him again this season, I can guarantee it. You haven't lost your chance to get an autograph, take pictures and pitch a tent for Giovanni yet. He's going to be here for 3 more years, and he's going to play more this season.

So ADMIT that it makes not one damn bit of difference, and deal with it for at least until we are out of the conference race. Then, I'm sure Dodge will be more willing to listen to the fans and play who we want, instead of ignoring us like that last coach did, because we know what's best. Just because Rick V. cares what we say doesn't mean Todd Dodge has to. He's got more important things to do, like prepare to win.

Cr1028 · October 5, 2007

If you are comparing the two quarterbacks, it is imperative that you only use stats from the OU and UA games. The games against SMU and FAU in which Vizza didn't play skews the data.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Cr1028

MeanMag · October 5, 2007

If you are comparing the two quarterbacks, it is imperative that you only use stats from the OU and UA games. The games against SMU and FAU in which Vizza didn't play skews the data.

Okay

Passing OU and Ark. games combined for imperativeness purposes.

.................TD........INT......Completion %.......YDS................AVG/ Comp.

Meager ......0...........2...............52.3...............179..................8.13

Vizza .........1...........3...............32.4...............242..................20.16

Still a wash if you ask me. Circle yds per completion if you want. Vizza is also almost twice as likely to throw an INT as Meager is.

Edited October 5, 2007 by MeanMag

GrandGreen · October 5, 2007

If you are comparing the two quarterbacks, it is imperative that you only use stats from the OU and UA games. The games against SMU and FAU in which Vizza didn't play skews the data.

Actually you should weight the stats against an index of starters, second team'ers, etc. on the field for both teams when each QB was on the field. Then create a relevance factor to use to compensate for the point in the game the Qbs were in. Obviously you can't compare statistics when the game is on the line with the game is over, NT does not have even a remote prayer playing time. Then apply functions to account for field position inherited, passes with the wind versus against the wind, crowd noise, etc.

Numbers don't lie but it sometimes takes a lot of skill to accurately interpret statistics. My take is that anyone who thinks that the choice of Qb is obviously Vizza must be clairavoyance because I haven't see anything that clearly indicates that decision. Yes, Meager has made mistakes that probably cost NT some wins, but on the other hand; Vizza has made even worst decisions in basically mop up time play.

UNTFan23 · October 5, 2007

What I saw in Vizza was pocket presence. Instead of bootlegging out away from his blockers when under pressure, he ran through a hole in the line, much like a RB would, and heads up field. It also seemed like Vizza also got rid of the ball quicker when under pressure rather then run around and try to force something before throwing the ball away. Vizza also stepped up into the pocket and didn't seem to have happy feet all the time. From what limited play time I saw, he stares down his receivers (both QBs suffer from this though), which might have accounted for his late 4th quarter INT against Ark.

To say the O-line blocks better when Vizza is in might not be entirely true. Meager is perhaps too mobile when put under pressure, which makes it all the more difficult for the line to maintain blocks. Meager holds on the ball way too long for my comfort and in turn, forces the ball into places where the the defense is more likely to jump a route or gain better position on the ball.

Some things I'd like both QBs to learn: pump fake and looking off a receiver.

Edited October 5, 2007 by UNTFan23

MeanMag · October 5, 2007

Now we are getting somewhere in this discussion. Taking an honest to god look at both of them. They both had almost equal playing time in the games combined. They have made almost the same amount of attempts.

Meager also has the longest scramble of them in the 2 games. (24yds) Vizza has a long of 9 yds.

Vizza is almost twice as likely to throw an INT

Meager is 1.7 times as likely to complete a pass

Vizza throws for near twice as many yards per completion, but since he completes less he only really throws for 1.5 times as many yds total.

I'll be the first to admit that Vizza looks more comfortable, and more confident. But if he can't even give receivers a chance to make plays, and throws ints, what's the point? It just puts our defense back on the field more. And that is the LAST thing we need.

Edited October 5, 2007 by MeanMag

October 5, 2007

Who cares who the QB is right now. Roger Freaking Staubach couldn't win with our D.

What happened to your bobblehead? I can't bear to see it.

Zeke · October 5, 2007

Yay!! A redshirt junior is no-better than a guy who was planning his prom a few months ago. How is that even possible?

Censored by Laurie · October 5, 2007

Yay!! A redshirt junior is no-better than a guy who was planning his prom a few months ago. How is that even possible?

:clapping:

I think the majority of people calling for Vizza at this point would feel much better about a freshman making freshman mistakes rather than a fourth year junior...especially if this season is going to be a rebuilding year.

H-towngreen · October 5, 2007

Vizza or Meager......Meager or Vizza.....hmmmmm. No one really seems to know. But luckily I have come up with a final answer that will solve all problems surrounding our QB controversy. His name is Woody Wilson

emmitt01 · October 5, 2007

It is obvious that the mapologists have missed the ENTIRE point of what I am saying. I'm not saying that Giovanni Vizza is perfect...just better than our current starter. Yes, he throws picks that result in points for the other team. On the flipside he also throws passes that result in points for our team. Or, phrased differently..."With Danny Meager in we will get blown out by BCS teams some exorbitant number to zero. With Vizza we will get blown out by BCS teams some exorbitant number to SOME NUMBER." Which, mapoligists, do you think is the easier fix? A freshman who makes freshman mistakes with some of his throws or a redshirt junior who makes freshman mistakes and the ball doesn't move forward? I know which one I would take. But, don't take my word for it...just look at the stats from the Arkansas game (since everyone is so enamored with throwing out numbers)

Meager QB'd the first four possessions...and here they are:

First Quarter

Possession 1: Started at the NT 35 at 13:08 and ended at the NT 42 at 11:21. So that's a whopping 7 yards in 1:47.

Possession 2: Started at the NT 15 at 9:51 and ended at the NT 15 at 8:28. So that's zero yards in 1:23.

Possession 3: Started at the NT 18 at 6:12 and ended at the NT 22 at 5:06. 4 yards in 1:06.

Second Quarter

Possession 4: Started at the NT 26 at 14:10 and ended at the NT 39 at 12:45. 13 yards in 1:25.

Vizza QB'd the second three possession...and here they are:

Second Quarter

Possession 1: Started at the NT 41 at 9:24 and ended at the Arkansas 21 at 8:34. 38 yards in 50 seconds. Did I mention this drive actually ended with a field goal attempt?

(And for those playing at home...38 is larger than the grand sum of the first four drives, 24)

Possession 2: Started at the NT 12 at 7:06 and ended at the NT 13 at 5:54. 1 yard in 1:12.

Possession 3: Started at the NT 20 at 4:42 and ended in the Arkansas endzone at 1:24. 80 yards (and a TD) in 3:18.

So, in 4 possessions DM quarterbacked the team to a grand total of 24 yards and zero points. Vizza, in three possessions, quarterbacked the team to 119 yards and 7 points with a missed field goal.

Now, let me line up the lame excuses for you mapoligists.

"Danny faced the first team defense!" Yeah, cuz Arkansas pulled their starters after four possesions, right? <_<

"Vizza threw a pick for a TD!" Yep. It was returned 100 yards because our offense was actually NEAR THE GOAL LINE. Oh yeah, and DM threw a pick during the game as well.

"Vizza is almost twice as likely to throw a pick" I love this one the most. I can only assume, MeanMag, that you are referring to Vizza's 3 picks in the OU an Ark games versus Danny's 2. To be honest 3 is actually 1.5 times 2. If 1.5 is "almost twice" in your math then fine. Now, take the 2 touchdowns Vizza has accounted for (you know, cuz he passed for one of them and ran for the other). In anyone's math 2 is "literally infinitely larger" than 0.

"Todge doesn't want to send Vizza out there to make freshman mistakes." I'll defer to what Bill Parcells had to say when he talked about Tony Romo and Drew Bledsoe..."If I'm gonna get rookie mistakes it might as well be from my rookie."

"Vizza didn't all of those yards by himself, the running game helped." You're right, we didn't have a single running back on the field when Danny was in. Todd Dodge, in his attempts to skew the numbers, kept calling 'QB happy feet sack on 3'.

Edited October 5, 2007 by emmitt01

Censored by Laurie · October 5, 2007

It is obvious that the mapologists have missed the ENTIRE point of what I am saying. I'm not saying that Giovanni Vizza is perfect...just better than our current starter. Yes, he throws picks that result in points for the other team. On the flipside he also throws passes that result in points for our team. Or, phrased differently..."With Danny Meager in we will get blown out by BCS teams some exorbitant number to zero. With Vizza we will get blown out by BCS teams some exorbitant number to SOME NUMBER." Which, mapoligists, do you think is the easier fix? A freshman who makes freshman mistakes with some of his throws or a redshirt junior who makes freshman mistakes and the ball doesn't move forward? I know which one I would take. But, don't take my word for it...just look at the stats from the Arkansas game (since everyone is so enamored with throwing out numbers)
Meager QB'd the first four possessions...and here they are:
First Quarter
Possession 1: Started at the NT 35 at 13:08 and ended at the NT 42 at 11:21. So that's a whopping 7 yards in 1:47.
Possession 2: Started at the NT 15 at 9:51 and ended at the NT 15 at 8:28. So that's zero yards in 1:23.
Possession 3: Started at the NT 18 at 6:12 and ended at the NT 22 at 5:06. 4 yards in 1:06.
Second Quarter
Possession 4: Started at the NT 26 at 14:10 and ended at the NT 39 at 12:45. 13 yards in 1:25.
Vizza QB'd the second three possession...and here they are:
Second Quarter
Possession 1: Started at the NT 41 at 9:24 and ended at the Arkansas 21 at 8:34. 38 yards in 50 seconds. Did I mention this drive actually ended with a field goal attempt?
(And for those playing at home...38 is larger than the grand sum of the first four drives, 24)
Possession 2: Started at the NT 12 at 7:06 and ended at the NT 13 at 5:54. 1 yard in 1:12.
Possession 3: Started at the NT 20 at 4:42 and ended in the Arkansas endzone at 1:24. 80 yards (and a TD) in 3:18.
So, in 4 possessions DM quarterbacked the team to a grand total of 24 yards and zero points. Vizza, in three possessions, quarterbacked the team to 119 yards and 7 points with a missed field goal.
Now, let me line up the lame excuses for you mapoligists.
"Danny faced the first team defense!" Yeah, cuz Arkansas pulled their starters after four possesions, right?
"Vizza threw a pick for a TD!" Yep. It was returned 100 yards because our offense was actually NEAR THE GOAL LINE. Oh yeah, and DM threw a pick during the game as well.
"Vizza is almost twice as likely to throw a pick" I love this one the most. I can only assume, MeanMag, that you are referring to Vizza's 3 picks in the OU an Ark games versus Danny's 2. To be honest 3 is actually 1.5 times 2. If 1.5 is "almost twice" in your math then fine. Now, take the 2 touchdowns Vizza has accounted for (you know, cuz he passed for one of them and ran for the other). In anyone's math 2 is "literally infinitely larger" than 0.
"Todge doesn't want to send Vizza out there to make freshman mistakes." I'll defer to what Bill Parcells had to say when he talked about Tony Romo and Drew Bledsoe..."If I'm gonna get rookie mistakes it might as well be from my rookie."

I love you so much right now.

nautique · October 5, 2007

In all fairness to GV, he has only played against teams that have pressed our receivers the entire night. GV has not thrown one screen, not one bubble, no high percentage passes because its wasn't there against OU or ARK.

DM dumps it down on a lot of third and long for short gains but no first downs. Vizza, being young, takes his shots down field and goes for the first down when its third and long and sacrifices completion percentage for a chance to make a first down.

Considering that GV had not played in an entire month, I do agree that his second quarter Arkansas performance was good and very noteworthy.

This dilemna will not end until GV starts a game and plays a team that we athletically match up with.

Dodge knows you can't take a true freshman and give him DM's four years of experience. But at some time, he'll have to let GV spread his wings, in a game that is not totally out of control and where the defense is having to play our entire playbook.

yyz28 · October 5, 2007

...if I had a nickel...

UNTFan23 · October 5, 2007

...if I had a nickel...

... for every time PMG posted a long winded diatribe ... ?

yyz28 · October 5, 2007

... for every time PMG posted a long winded diatribe ... ?

LOL! That too...

MeanMag · October 5, 2007

"Vizza is almost twice as likely to throw a pick" I love this one the most. I can only assume, MeanMag, that you are referring to Vizza's 3 picks in the OU an Ark games versus Danny's 2. To be honest 3 is actually 1.5 times 2. If 1.5 is "almost twice" in your math then fine. Now, take the 2 touchdowns Vizza has accounted for (you know, cuz he passed for one of them and ran for the other). In anyone's math 2 is "literally infinitely larger" than 0.

Vizza IS almost twice as likely to throw a pick. Take the number of interceptions over the number of attempts and get a percentage. In those 2 games Vizza threw a pick 8.11% of the time. Daniel threw a pick 4.76% of the time. the number is actually 1.7 times more. But, you have me beat. It's really not that big of a difference. I didn't make up numbers to prove Meager needs to start. I did the math and it shows me that there is just about no difference between the 2. To be honest, I would love to see more of Vizza. But, since you are clearly are blinded by man love for Vizza, you would fail to see that.

2 is exactly 2 numbers away from 0. I was looking at passing stats, but if you want to include rushing, that's fine too. It's part of the game. You don't have to explain it to me, I know where you got it from, because I don't assume anything. You argument of getting our asses beat some huge number to 0 and some even bigger number than that to 7 or 14 is hilarious. Because, either way we still get our asses kicked, and it's still a beating to watch someone try to "figure it out" on game day.

You assuming is what all of your arguments are based on. You are assuming you have a say in the matter. You are going to argue this point until you are red in the face, and it still isn't going to matter one damn bit. Let Dodge do his job, and you do yours. YOU WILL SEE VIZZA AGAIN. TRUST ME. If you can't wait until Saturday, then you know where they practice and you can see through the fence. You can even go and take pictures to hang above your bed at night. Again, I ask you: what difference does it make if he takes the 1st snap of the game, or the 1st snap of the 3rd quarter?

I don't really care who the freaking Qb is. I wish one of them would step up and CLEARLY prove they are better than the other, but that hasn't happened. To me, Vizza does look more like a QB, but he still isn't getting it done. And, until he does, there is only one thing we can count on. We will continue to see a split QB situation until Riley Dodge gets here.

If I am named a "mapologist" (gayest term ever), I should also be named a Vizza apologist, because who ever the QB is going to be, he's going to make some plays we will all be sorry for.

Edited October 5, 2007 by MeanMag

pollock · October 5, 2007

What happened to your bobblehead? I can't bear to see it.

My 2-yr-old got a hold of it. Makes for good artistic expression right now though.

Zeke · October 5, 2007

I don't really care who the freaking Qb is.

Clearly.

Vizza4QB · October 5, 2007

I don't really care who is QB. I trust Dodge to make the right decision, because he knows more about the position than every person on this board combined.
My only comment to this statement is the team gets the wins and the team gets the loss. And Meager can have great stats but if the defense doesn't play better, we lose.
Why not? You're knee-jerking about Meager. Four games in a new system is enough to make a final judgment? Then I guess you would have cut Troy Aikman the middle of his first season. No, I'm not comparing Troy and Meager, not at all. But I am comparing the rather brief amount of information upon which everyone is judging Meager. And don't even mention the past two years. Anything coming from train wreck led by DD and Flanagan should not be held against any player.
How would you know they are at the same level? Vizza hasn't played enough to show that. And Dodge IS giving Vizza a chance to learn this year. That's what they're doing with him this year - teaching him to play college quarterback.
Let's not get this chant started. For crying out loud, they're kids. They're not professional athletes. How about a little respect for these kids and a little bit more civil behavior. It's been painfully lacking all too often on this board.

Well i believe that Dodge said that it came down to the final few days of camp to se ehwo the starter would be. I have seen the aweful QB play that is D Meager for 3 years now. Im not Knee Jerking im calling it like i see it... The kid couldnt start for a high school team these days.

Vizza4QB · October 5, 2007

A freshman who makes freshman mistakes with some of his throws or a redshirt junior who makes freshman mistakes and the ball doesn't move forward? I know which one I would take.
Todge doesn't want to send Vizza out there to make freshman mistakes." I'll defer to what Bill Parcells had to say when he talked about Tony Romo and Drew Bledsoe..."If I'm gonna get rookie mistakes it might as well be from my rookie."

I think these two statements might be the best thing ever posted on this board. If this team is going to struggle then lets struggle with a freshman. I like how Meager can beat up teams like SMU and lose and everyone thinks its ok. That is part of the problem with UNT athletics they EXCEPT losing. With Meager we have no change at winning OOC games or IC games (in conference). By definition of my login you can tell who i think should be playing QB. I just think that if you look at the team they all want to see Vizza play personally i think that says all that needs to be said they have not confidence in Meager plain and simple.

Oh well heres to getting Vizza on the field sooner rather then later..... GO MEAN GREEN..... got a winnable game this weekend YAHOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Smitty · October 5, 2007

Well i believe that Dodge said that it came down to the final few days of camp to se ehwo the starter would be. I have seen the aweful QB play that is D Meager for 3 years now. Im not Knee Jerking im calling it like i see it... The kid couldnt start for a high school team these days.

Well, you did stumble upon one correct statement. Since Meager is twenty-two years old, has graduated from high school, and has no UIL eligibility remaining, he could not start for a high school team these days.