Vizza Vs. Meager

emmitt01 · September 30, 2007

Let's take a look:

IN the two games against OU and Ark (I won't include SMU and FAU because Vizza didn't play) here is what I have seen:

Points with Vizza under center- 17...and could have been 20 if Moreland hits a short one last night

Points with Meager under center- 0

Allow me to beat a few of you to the punch. Yes, the opposing defense has scored 14 points off of Vizza interceptions. I'll concede those to you on a silver platter and tell you I would GLADLY take an offense that might score some points for us since the other team is gonna score on our defense anyway. And you can teach Vizza to make better reads...since you don't have to teach him how to be a QB.

Now, to the excuses that are beating me down.

1)Todge doesn't want to hurt the confidence of the freshman.

Boy am I glad he's protecting Vizza. Protecting him from leading our offense, protecting him from showing the ample confidence he has displayed, protecting us from seeing the ball move, protecting us from scoring.

2)They're about even.

Do I really have to respond to this one? This is either incredibly naive and I'll assume you haven't seen the OU or Ark games, or incredibly generous.

3)Meager is just now getting good coaching.

Really? So NOBODY told him not to force throws into double coverage? NOBODY told him not to run backwards in the face of pressure? And who gave Vizza this superior coaching everyone must assume he was the recipient of? Who taught him to put the ball where only his receiver can get it, to look comfortable in the pocket....TO CAUSE THE OFFENSE TO FREAKIN' MOVE FORWARD? You can coach technique. You can coach mechanics. You can't coach away a talent discrepancy.

4)We have bigger issues to worry about than QB play (This one gives me the most tired head of all)

You mapologists (word Zeke and I came up with for Meager apologists) are silly. What you are saying is that, in essence, even though there is the very real issue of needing to find out which of them is better you would rather cop out to "we have other problems to deal with." Does the defense need work? Yes. Could we scheme better on defense? Yes. Should we stop with dumb penalties: Yes. How is this relevant to the QB discussion? I can just imagine your conversations with wives or girlfriends.

(As you drive down the highway)

Wife: You know honey, our windshield wipers don't work.

Mapologist: Babe haven't you noticed that the transmission has been acting up and we need to get an oil change?

Wife: True, but it's supposed to rain today and our windshield wipers don't work.

Mapologist: What's your point? This car has bigger issues.

Wife: Ok, I'll grant you that, but don't you think working windshield wipers would be a good idea in the rain?

Mapologist: Huh? Were you talking? I was thinking about how I really need to get an oil change.

Edited September 30, 2007 by emmitt01

meangreendork · September 30, 2007

4)We have bigger issues to worry about than QB play (This one gives me the most tired head of all)
You mapologists (word Zeke and I came up with for Meager apologists) are silly. What you are saying is that, in essence, even though there is the very real issue of needing to find out which of them is better you would rather cop out to "we have other problems to deal with." Does the defense need work? Yes. Could we scheme better on defense? Yes. Should we stop with dumb penalties: Yes. How is this relevant to the QB discussion? I can just imagine your conversations with wives or girlfriends.

That's good thinking. Right now, I think the QB situation is the easiest fix and what's best is that it can bring some great results with Vizza. Yeah, we do have other problems, but the QB problem is the easiest fix of them all.

Thing is, it's not the GMG users that gotta be convinced...it's the coaching staff.

gangrene · September 30, 2007

You mapologists (word Zeke and I came up with for Meager apologists)

So would us Meager bashers be known as Mashers??

emmitt01 · September 30, 2007

So would us Meager bashers be known as Mashers??

I prefer the term "sighted".

KingDL1 · September 30, 2007

I prefer the term "sighted".

Sighted Visionaries

Vizza

Vizza

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 1, 2007

Let's take a look:
IN the two games against OU and Ark (I won't include SMU and FAU because Vizza didn't play) here is what I have seen:
Points with Vizza under center- 17...and could have been 20 if Moreland hits a short one last night
Points with Meager under center- 0
Allow me to beat a few of you to the punch. Yes, the opposing defense has scored 14 points off of Vizza interceptions. I'll concede those to you on a silver platter and tell you I would GLADLY take an offense that might score some points for us since the other team is gonna score on our defense anyway. And you can teach Vizza to make better reads...since you don't have to teach him how to be a QB.
Now, to the excuses that are beating me down.
1)Todge doesn't want to hurt the confidence of the freshman.
Boy am I glad he's protecting Vizza. Protecting him from leading our offense, protecting him from showing the ample confidence he has displayed, protecting us from seeing the ball move, protecting us from scoring.
2)They're about even.
Do I really have to respond to this one? This is either incredibly naive and I'll assume you haven't seen the OU or Ark games, or incredibly generous.
3)Meager is just now getting good coaching.
Really? So NOBODY told him not to force throws into double coverage? NOBODY told him not to run backwards in the face of pressure? And who gave Vizza this superior coaching everyone must assume he was the recipient of? Who taught him to put the ball where only his receiver can get it, to look comfortable in the pocket....TO CAUSE THE OFFENSE TO FREAKIN' MOVE FORWARD? You can coach technique. You can coach mechanics. You can't coach away a talent discrepancy.
4)We have bigger issues to worry about than QB play (This one gives me the most tired head of all)
You mapologists (word Zeke and I came up with for Meager apologists) are silly.

I love the name Mapologist. I also love the name "Mashers" and the response of "sighted". :clapping:

I want a change, and I will be interested to hear what Dodge has to say tomorrow night - since I have to work, is there anyone that can ask about the possibilities of Vizza starting?

FirefightnRick · October 1, 2007

CLICK HERE and scroll to the bottom.

Give it up for crying out loud! Peyton Manning couldn't help our situation right now with a defense giving up 580 yards per game?

Rick

UNTFan23 · October 1, 2007

CLICK HERE and scroll to the bottom.
Give it up for crying out loud! Peyton Manning couldn't help our situation right now with a defense giving up 580 yards per game?
Rick

We only have 2.0 sacks so far in the season.

FirefightnRick · October 1, 2007

We only have 2.0 sacks so far in the season.

Last time I checked a sack required one to make a tackle on the opponents side of the LOS, which means, you gotta get over on that side somehow? Therefore, I don't expect NT to raise that number(2 sacks) very much if we remain sending 4 down lineman against 5 blockers while 3 linebackers stand back and wait for the action to come to them?

BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rick

Smitty · October 1, 2007

CLICK HERE and scroll to the bottom.
Give it up for crying out loud! Peyton Manning couldn't help our situation right now with a defense giving up 580 yards per game?
Rick

I agree with Emmitt on this point. Just because the defense is horrible doesn't mean you ignore a position on offense. They are two separate questions that should be dealt with simultaneously.

Besides, the point is not to salvage this season. North Texas is not going to win the Sun Belt conference this year. I'm not giving up on the season, I'll be at games cheering wildly, and I hope we win, but I do not believe we are going to a bowl this year. Nobody wants to hear that, and I don't want to say it, but I'm afraid that's reality this year.

So what's left? Develop the freshmen. That does not mean push them into the lineup immediately. Hopefully, coach Dodge is bringing this class along at the pace he feels is proper, letting them learn before putting them into the starting lineup. And before you say, "Freshmen are starting for other schools," remember, a lot of those freshman starting in other programs are starting with a better supporting cast. I will trust the coaches to know when it's best to put the freshmen on the field. Hopefully, coach Dodge is getting each freshman playing time according to when he feels each player is ready. If that is the case, then this season is not a waste, and this year's class will learn, get some experience, and be in a better position to contribute next year.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Smitty

LittleMeanGreenMan · October 1, 2007

Best post you've ever made Emmitt. The time is now. Look to the future. Vizza is bigger, smarter, stronger, and can sling the rock better. No reason he shouldn't be taking every snap.

Do you think Adrian Peterson's confidence was hurt his freshman year? Ha. What about Jamario?

For goodness sake, Allen High School has a 15 year old kid starting at quarterback and they are like 5th in the state.

Age is but a number.

TIgreen01 · October 1, 2007

Let's take a look:
IN the two games against OU and Ark (I won't include SMU and FAU because Vizza didn't play) here is what I have seen:
Points with Vizza under center- 17...and could have been 20 if Moreland hits a short one last night
Points with Meager under center- 0
Allow me to beat a few of you to the punch. Yes, the opposing defense has scored 14 points off of Vizza interceptions. I'll concede those to you on a silver platter and tell you I would GLADLY take an offense that might score some points for us since the other team is gonna score on our defense anyway. And you can teach Vizza to make better reads...since you don't have to teach him how to be a QB.
Now, to the excuses that are beating me down.
1)Todge doesn't want to hurt the confidence of the freshman.
Boy am I glad he's protecting Vizza. Protecting him from leading our offense, protecting him from showing the ample confidence he has displayed, protecting us from seeing the ball move, protecting us from scoring.
2)They're about even.
Do I really have to respond to this one? This is either incredibly naive and I'll assume you haven't seen the OU or Ark games, or incredibly generous.
3)Meager is just now getting good coaching.
Really? So NOBODY told him not to force throws into double coverage? NOBODY told him not to run backwards in the face of pressure? And who gave Vizza this superior coaching everyone must assume he was the recipient of? Who taught him to put the ball where only his receiver can get it, to look comfortable in the pocket....TO CAUSE THE OFFENSE TO FREAKIN' MOVE FORWARD? You can coach technique. You can coach mechanics. You can't coach away a talent discrepancy.
4)We have bigger issues to worry about than QB play (This one gives me the most tired head of all)
You mapologists (word Zeke and I came up with for Meager apologists) are silly. What you are saying is that, in essence, even though there is the very real issue of needing to find out which of them is better you would rather cop out to "we have other problems to deal with." Does the defense need work? Yes. Could we scheme better on defense? Yes. Should we stop with dumb penalties: Yes. How is this relevant to the QB discussion? I can just imagine your conversations with wives or girlfriends.
(As you drive down the highway)
Wife: You know honey, our windshield wipers don't work.
Mapologist: Babe haven't you noticed that the transmission has been acting up and we need to get an oil change?
Wife: True, but it's supposed to rain today and our windshield wipers don't work.
Mapologist: What's your point? This car has bigger issues.
Wife: Ok, I'll grant you that, but don't you think working windshield wipers would be a good idea in the rain?
Mapologist: Huh? Were you talking? I was thinking about how I really need to get an oil change.

Great post. Start Vizza. Just get on with it, Coach Dodge.

meangreendork · October 1, 2007

First, we need the defense to be a lot better. We know that.

Let's say that we had put Vizza in against FAU and he just happened to have had the same opportunities to make TD passes. Let's say that he made two of them. That's 14 points we would've had and 14 points that FAU wouldn't. Defense still playing the same, we would've won.

My point is this: If Vizza came in and started to perform really well, then the touchdown score and the extra time we eat off the clock can still help win the game. Every little detail counts, every inch makes a difference. If Vizza can give the team that extra inch, that extra aim that puts the ball in the hands of a UNT player, then maybe that extra inch, or that extra reception can equal a win. Just because the defense needs work doesn't mean we can't have the offense working really well.

Maximize your strong points: good WRs, a young FR QB that has excellent potential, and a stable of fast RBs.

See the weak points: OL, DL, existing QB, special teams, tackling

Fix the easier weak points first: switch QBs

Remedy the remaining, more complex weak points

Even if Vizza goes in and loses the game...then it's a safe bet to say that the reps will make him better. He's gotta have more potential than Meager. Even if he doesn't, then he may not have the same bad habits.

KingDL1 · October 1, 2007

First, we need the defense to be a lot better. We know that.
Let's say that we had put Vizza in against FAU and he just happened to have had the same opportunities to make TD passes. Let's say that he made two of them. That's 14 points we would've had and 14 points that FAU wouldn't. Defense still playing the same, we would've won.
My point is this: If Vizza came in and started to perform really well, then the touchdown score and the extra time we eat off the clock can still help win the game. Every little detail counts, every inch makes a difference. If Vizza can give the team that extra inch, that extra aim that puts the ball in the hands of a UNT player, then maybe that extra inch, or that extra reception can equal a win. Just because the defense needs work doesn't mean we can't have the offense working really well.
Maximize your strong points: good WRs, a young FR QB that has excellent potential, and a stable of fast RBs.
See the weak points: OL, DL, existing QB, special teams, tackling
Fix the easier weak points first: switch QBs
Remedy the remaining, more complex weak points
Even if Vizza goes in and loses the game...then it's a safe bet to say that the reps will make him better. He's gotta have more potential than Meager. Even if he doesn't, then he may not have the same bad habits.

I agree and it brings up one of the oldest sayings, "The Best Defense is a Good Offense"!

gangrene · October 1, 2007

Last time I checked a sack required one to make a tackle on the opponents side of the LOS, which means, you gotta get over on that side somehow? Therefore, I don't expect NT to raise that number(2 sacks) very much if we remain sending 4 down lineman against 5 blockers while 3 linebackers stand back and wait for the action to come to them?
BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rick

Mapologist???

FirefightnRick · October 1, 2007

I agree with Emmitt on this point. Just because the defense is horrible doesn't mean you ignore a position on offense.

Lets look at what is truly being ignored. The MAJOR concern for this team IS the defense. It's what isn't working. The defense is why we are 0-4. A perfect example: After watching our offense set records and our defense make smu look like Brigham Young, all some of our posters here on GMG.com could talk about while walking out of Ford stadium that night was how DM has to go? The guy sets an offensive school record on a night the defense gives up 534 yards, 28 first downs and 45 points and it's all Danny Meagers fault we lost?

Y'all go ahead and keep kicking your dead horse and I'll kick mine.

Rick

Edited October 1, 2007 by FirefightnRick

meangreendork · October 1, 2007

I agree and it brings up one of the oldest sayings, "The Best Defense is a Good Offense"!

If you can score first, score often, and keep scoring, your odds of winning go way up. You can have a good defense, but they can only score so many points. You can have a good offense, and if they're good enough, they can score more points than the others, eat more of the clock up, and weaken the defense as they do so.

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 1, 2007

Lets look at what is truly being ignored. The MAJOR concern for this team IS the defense. It's what isn't working. The defense is why we are 0-4. A perfect example: After watching our offense set records and our defense make smu look like Brigham Young, all some of our posters here on GMG.com could talk about while walking out of Ford stadium that night was how DM has to go? The guy sets an offensive school record on a night the defense gives up 534 yards, 28 first downs and 45 points and it's all Danny Meagers fault we lost?
Y'all go ahead and keep kicking your dead horse and I'll kick mine.
Rick

I think the QB question is pretty mute right now, because Dodge has made it CLEAR who the starter is on this team. For whatever reason he sees it differently than a lot of us. You put the greatest QB to ever play and it wouldn't really matter because the defense can't seem to stop anything. I still can't get over the fact that this defense, 4 games IN, gives up 500+ yards of offense in one stinking half! They give up 720 yards for the game?

KingDL1 · October 1, 2007

Lets look at what is truly being ignored. The MAJOR concern for this team IS the defense. It's what isn't working. The defense is why we are 0-4. A perfect example: After watching our offense set records and our defense make smu look like Brigham Young, all some of our posters here on GMG.com could talk about while walking out of Ford stadium that night was how DM has to go? The guy sets an offensive school record on a night the defense gives up 534 yards, 28 first downs and 45 points and it's all Danny Meagers fault we lost?
Y'all go ahead and keep kicking your dead horse and I'll kick mine.
Rick

I agree the defense needs tons of work, but Meager has 7 interceptions to 4 TDs. At the SMU game I saw at least 3 deep balls that gave me a heart attack each time and our receivers came up big. Meager floated and under threw his receivers that by all rights should have been intercepted but his receivers managed to win the battle for the ball. There was no reason to put his receivers in a situation where they have to battle for the ball on all his deep passes. The more he is out there the more the opposing defenses are going to take away our short game and dare Meager to throw long. Not even mentioning how much it sounded like our offensive line looked better with Vizza on the field.

meangreendork · October 1, 2007

I agree the defense needs tons of work, but Meager has 7 interceptions to 4 TDs. At the SMU game I saw at least 3 deep balls that gave me a heart attack each time and our receivers came up big. Meager floated and under threw his receivers that by all rights should have been intercepted but his receivers managed to win the battle for the ball. There was no reason to put his receivers in a situation where they have to battle for the ball on all his deep passes. The more he is out there the more the opposing defenses are going to take away our short game and dare Meager to throw long. Not even mentioning how much it sounded like our offensive line looked better with Vizza on the field.

At FAU, Meager gave up at least 2 turnovers that turned in scores. That's 14 points he gave away. He also found difficulty moving the ball in the last half of the game, where FAU got the points they needed to get the win. If we can't move Meager from starting, Vizza needs to come in to relieve him and let him get some rest. I don't care who you are, if you're throwing as often as DM is in the spread offense, you're gonna get winded. Give him time to breathe...part of the reason DM makes bad passes in the last of games like FAU and SMU is because he's tired.

SouthBendGreen · October 1, 2007

Good post Emmitt.

I don't get it.

I think we ALL understand that the defense is horrible and the worst part of the team right now. However, what can be done about it? Nothing really. There aren't any other players riding the bench that might make a significant difference. Am I wrong about that? So while I think the vast majority agree that the defense is in a worse situation than the QB position nothing can be done, at least right now. However, the QB situation can be improved and some believe greatly. Just because people are more vocal about a change at QB doesn't mean they are overlooking how bad the defense is.

mwynn05 · October 1, 2007

I think what a lot of you guys aren't considering in this whole QB situation that it is about more than just this year. I for one think Vizza is a heck of a player and a great athlete, but I don't know if he's ready to become the starter. I think Todd Dodge might feel the same way. It's good to see Vizza get some action though that will help him. One reason he might not be starting is to protect him. One year can make a HUGE difference in a players development. I think the staff might be scared that if they throw Vizza out there this year and he has a rough time, that it could ruin him. Now, I am not saying Vizza isn't mentally tough because I don't know, I have never met him. All I am saying is this could be more about preparing Vizza to lead this team in the future than anything. I could be wrong, but I thought I would put in my opinion on the situation

And from what I saw on Saturday, if the coaching staff is wanting to protect Vizza I can kind of understand because while I think Vizza is a little more diverse I don't think the difference is as big as some make it out to be. plus did anyone else notice how many more calls Arkansas got than us? We weren't going to win even if those calls were made but the officials were very poor...The Arkansas db's were ALL OVER our WR's, holding pretty much every play

ScreaminEagle · October 1, 2007

Good post Emmitt.
I don't get it.
I think we ALL understand that the defense is horrible and the worst part of the team right now. However, what can be done about it? Nothing really. There aren't any other players riding the bench that might make a significant difference. Am I wrong about that? So while I think the vast majority agree that the defense is in a worse situation than the QB position nothing can be done, at least right now. However, the QB situation can be improved and some believe greatly. Just because people are more vocal about a change at QB doesn't mean they are overlooking how bad the defense is.

emmitt01 · October 1, 2007

Lets look at what is truly being ignored. The MAJOR concern for this team IS the defense. It's what isn't working. The defense is why we are 0-4. A perfect example: After watching our offense set records and our defense make smu look like Brigham Young, all some of our posters here on GMG.com could talk about while walking out of Ford stadium that night was how DM has to go? The guy sets an offensive school record on a night the defense gives up 534 yards, 28 first downs and 45 points and it's all Danny Meagers fault we lost?
Y'all go ahead and keep kicking your dead horse and I'll kick mine.
Rick

Just playing devil's advocate here Rick but do you recall when that horrid defense you keep harping on (and rightfully so, don't get me wrong) intercepted Justin Willis just after we came back to tie the game? What did Danny do on THE VERY NEXT PLAY? Pick. One of 3 that night. Then he added 3 more the next week. And just for the record, Zeke and I were counting this Saturday. 3 more that Arkansas DB's dropped when they hit them in the hands. And are you suggesting that Vizza couldn't have just as easily set that school record had he been the starter? 601 yards wasn't the result of Meager's amazing play. It was dinks and dunks all game mixed in with the occasional long pass...which was made sooooooo much easier by SMU's porous pass defense (have you seen them make ANY quarterback look bad?)

I'm not beating this "dead horse" to the exclusion of the big elephant in the corner of the room. I'm just saying that, if you know your defense is gonna force you to score a bunch to win, why not put the QB out there that just might allow you to do that?

TIgreen01 · October 1, 2007

I think what a lot of you guys aren't considering in this whole QB situation that it is about more than just this year. I for one think Vizza is a heck of a player and a great athlete, but I don't know if he's ready to become the starter. I think Todd Dodge might feel the same way. It's good to see Vizza get some action though that will help him. One reason he might not be starting is to protect him. One year can make a HUGE difference in a players development. I think the staff might be scared that if they throw Vizza out there this year and he has a rough time, that it could ruin him. Now, I am not saying Vizza isn't mentally tough because I don't know, I have never met him. All I am saying is this could be more about preparing Vizza to lead this team in the future than anything. I could be wrong, but I thought I would put in my opinion on the situation

Which is exactly why you won't see Vizza start until the conference title is lost. He'll be out there with a ton less pressure and the fans will be far less critical since wins/losses won't matter as much. Dodge's time at UT(where he got boo'ed pretty mercilessly at times) seems to have made a huge impact on how he handles QBs. I can't say that I disagree with this approach....it's just difficult to be a patient fan sometimes.