Taking It To A New Level!

[kmb0204]

Real Quick:

Arkansas St. stadium built in 1974 holds 33,410 (largest of sun belt)

La. Lafayette (1971) holds 31,000

MTSU (1933) holds 30,788

La. Monroe (1978) 30,427

Troy (1950) 30,000

O and

Smu (usa) (2000) 32,000

My question is what size stadium, does UNT need to prove to the doubters that we are ready for big time football.

[Dodge2007]

I would like to see QUALITY over QUANTITY !!!!!

[UNTflyer]

A 30-33,000 seat stadium will be fine as long as the seats are close to the field and they are real seats, not bleachers.

The stadium will be expandable, with the possibility of an upper deck of seats. Luxury suites will also be available.

But we don't need the new stadium to show we are ready for big time football. Buy an extra ticket or two and give them away at work, church, whatever. When we fill Fouts field consistently, funding for a new stadium will be a no-brainer.

[chrisfisher]

A 30-33,000 seat stadium will be fine as long as the seats are close to the field and they are real seats, not bleachers.

The stadium will be expandable, with the possibility of an upper deck of seats. Luxury suites will also be available.

But we don't need the new stadium to show we are ready for big time football. Buy an extra ticket or two and give them away at work, church, whatever. When we fill Fouts field consistently, funding for a new stadium will be a no-brainer.

Great post.

[NT91]

35,000

[Bryan316]

I'd say 35,000, as well. However, if you took the track out of Fouts and scoot the 30,500 in, the sides of the four sections might touch or get close enough that a 30,000-seat lower bowl is good. Plus, one end of the stadium is the Athletic Center, so subtract those seats.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Bryan316

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

33,500

That would make us the largest in the Sun Belt and the 8th largest in Texas.

Edited August 6, 2007 by GrayEagleOne

[EagleMBA]

I know there are many opinions about this size thing and that there appears to me to be valid rationale on both sides of the argument. Please, if we err, lets err on the side of more seats. I would think that once the basic infrastructure is in place, the incremental cost of adding the next seat during original construction goes WAY down. Some people argue that we can't fill Fouts now, to which I would say it is not very fan-friendly and the product on the field has been less attractive to the walkup sports fan. There are legions of people out there who have no loyalty to particular teams and just go where they think they will see a good game; we need to get our share of those. I would attend games on the Safeway parking lot but there are only a few thousand of us that are the same kind of crazy as me.

For many reasons (financial, image, recruiting leverage, other competitive factors) my personal opinion is that we will surely regret it if we do not build a stadium with at least 40,000 seats. If we are not able to raise the money to do that now, we should limp along with Fouts until we CAN. Anything less than 40,000 seats would be extremely shortsighted IMHO.

I double-dipped on the green KoolAid last night and think that this season we will experience more big crowds than we ever have, with Navy being a near-sellout.

[PlummMeanGreen]

33,500

That would make us the largest in the Sun Belt and the 8th largest in Texas.

33,500 would be a good start albeit 40K would be a dream come true for many I've spoken to.

At UNT, we just have to start believing that we will soon have programs put in place that will help us to start getting 30-35,000 Mean Green fans out of 6 million Metroplex citizens--I repeat...............6,000,000.................DFW area citizens with almost 600,000 of them now in Denton County. I'm not sure why some of our elect just keep hanging onto our past as a barometer to measure their expectations for all our future turnstile counts on Game Day in Denton.

I was in Denton today on a little business and spoke to an older man whose family just moved to Denton from Ohio. I told him how much Denton had grown since I lived here and he said he & his family were going to jump on the Dodge Ball Band Wagon; had already bought their Family Tickets. He also asked me about a good Texas HS to follow as far as his family's Friday Nights were concerned. (He knew all about & respected Coach Fry when I told him who "my" HFC was when I was an NT student). These are the kind of new fans/new faces that will fill our future stadium.

Wouldn't These Be Nice Numbers From All These Groups For UNT Attendance:

City of Denton Citizens MG fan support (110,000 pop.).........................................10,000

Denton County MG fans support (outside Denton City Limits) (590,000 pop.)..........15,000

UNT Students fan support (34,000 enrollment).......................................................8,000

UNT Statewide NT Exes support (110,000 alums)..................................................10,000

Total......................................................43,000 (So thinking ahead, would 40K attendance be so unattainable from all the aforementioned constituencies within the next 5 years)? NOTE: I did not include any visiting fans at all, either.

...........................................................

OFF SUBJECT: What in the wide world of sports is Kirstie Alley still on all those Jenny Craig commercials with Vallerie Bertinelli? She still looks like the Goodyear blimp for heaven's sake!

Also............Anyone else ever wonder why in most movies when someone bust somebody's snozzola that the line most always said by most any actor in most any movie is:: "You broke my nose!" NOTE: Might there need to be a special Oscar for the screen-writer who can come up with a different line which would still have similar meaning?

Edited August 6, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[GoMeanGreen1999]

I can't see us building anything under at least 40,000. I was shocked when SMU built their new one under 40,000. If you are in D1 to stay, I don't know why would you build it under 50k to me, but who knows.

[UNTflyer]

I can't see us building anything under at least 40,000. I was shocked when SMU built their new one under 40,000. If you are in D1 to stay, I don't know why would you build it under 50k to me, but who knows.

Money. A 40k seat stadium would require a 2nd level, which dramatically increases the cost of building a stadium. You would have to build additional bathrooms, install elevators for disabled access, build more concession stands... In addition, a bigger stadium costs more to operate. The idea that 40,000 seats wouldn't cost much more than a 30,000 seat stadium shows that many don't understand the economics of such a project.

[Mean Green 93-98]

Money. A 40k seat stadium would require a 2nd level, which dramatically increases the cost of building a stadium. You would have to build additional bathrooms, install elevators for disabled access, build more concession stands... In addition, a bigger stadium costs more to operate. The idea that 40,000 seats wouldn't cost much more than a 30,000 seat stadium shows that many don't understand the economics of such a project.

So how many seats can you have in a stadium before you have to build an upper level?

[NTPhiKap99]

So how many seats can you have in a stadium before you have to build an upper level?

There is no clear answer to that the Rose Bowl and the big house each hold over 100k without an upperdeck. It all comes down to the design I think we could fit around 40k in a lower bowl but that means we have to have the dreaded and feared end-zone seats. I will admit the planned horseshoe design around the athletic center will make it hard to get to 40k with out the upperdeck.

[UNTflyer]

So how many seats can you have in a stadium before you have to build an upper level?

PhiKap nailed it. It depends on the design, the available footprint, weight considerations, etc.

We know that one end of the stadium will be open, and I think that is what's going to limit us to about a 30,000 seat stadium. Building that 2nd tier is just going to cost too much... for now.

The good thing is that the AD wants an expandable stadium, so we're not going to be married to the initial number of seats.

I really hate to burst everyone's bubble, but a 40,000+ stadium can't be done right now. However, a stadium with 30-33,000 is possible and the initial drawings show stands that are close to the field.

[NTPhiKap99]

I really hate getting into long drawn out stadium debates but this topic just stirs up debate around every turn. I’ll be the first to say building a new stadium the same size as the current one seems somewhat counterproductive to me. I do feel in building a new stadium we need to take a major step towards bringing in bigger opponents and toward joining a bigger conference. Does add a new 32k seat stadium really help us do that? Upon a lot of deep and serious thought I came up with an answer of not so much with a but. Just like every step this program has taken we have to view this as a work in progress and feel the stadium is no different. Because of the horseshoe plan I do have to agree that going over 30-35k without an upper-deck will be very difficult and it isn’t cost effective to build an upper-deck now. With that said I’m now on board with the lets build what ever we can bandwagon. If we can raise the money now to build a new 30-35k seat state of the art stadium; I feel if needed we shouldn’t have any problem funding the expansion a few years down the line. We still have to double our average attendance just to need a stadium bigger than 32k. If this happens we should be talking a minimum of 1.5 million a year in increased ticket sales. I do feel a new stadium will help attract better opponents and will drastically help recruiting. With all this comes more press and better national exposure which will only mean more money for the program and hopefully a new conference offer. So my new stance is to build it now and let the stadium pay for its own expansion.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I've dated a couple of women who make Kirstie Allie look like Olive Oil, right, Green Means Go! ?

Awe............stadium talk! I love it! Even like it over any branding threads!

A 40K seat stadium might help UNT be in on future upper profile conference re-alignment talks and might even help us get in a league like the Mountain West Conference; while a 30,000 seater will pretty well keep us land-locked where we've been of late and do any of you really & sincerely want any more of that kind of co-existance? Remember, the difference of 10,000 seats (30K compared to 40K) with most Big Donors would be merely nickels and dimes with such high-rollers. If UNT doesn't ask them for 40,000 seats and tell them how important that would be for us 10 years down the road, anyone think potential Big Donors will suggest that we need 40K just off the top of their heads ?

A 30,000 seater will not allow us to make headway among the other 9 Texas D1-A schools, either. Like I read somewhere UNT is just going to always have to go the extra mile to make any semblance of impressions in own home state of Texas. (IMHO, of coure).

.....................................................

40,000 seat stadium without a double deck? Well..............how about 17,500 on the west side, 17,500 on the east side and then 5,000 seats in the north end zone (with room to build an end zone facility that would even include more luxury suites along with those 5,000 seats).

How about a hotel someone posted about 1 or 2 years back being the backdrop of those 5,000 seats (with special hotel accomodations,ie, super luxury suites) looking out on the field toward our Athletic Center Complex (which would be on the opposite end)?

One could get very creative with all the possibilities if one wanted to (but why not let the Hiltons, the Wyndams, the Westin, etc, etc, etc, form a special partnership with UNT especiallly with their getting what they want and UNT (for certain) getting what they want?

If not a hotel in the north endzone seating area, how about another dormitory with some special blue-prints that would allow 5,000 seats adjacent to that dormitory? With such a special dormitory, what a great pre-game gathering spot for a few thousand UNT students at that end zone dorm's spacious "court-yard?" Talk about a great place for UNT students to tail-gate! Then...........when the time comes, get the Green Brigade to lead all of them thru a special tunnel that will lead them into those 5,000 seats.

[runt96]

IF we could get 75% of the enrollment to enjoy a saturday game (4 times this year), we could justify the need for a 35-40k stadium. When the kids come to the stadium and have a good time they will return. Alums are excited. SLC and their fans are probably excited. We are getting more media coverage than I ever remember. This is the year. I don't think anyone sees us beating OU, but if we take care of business with the conference and Navy & SMUT, this year could be great.

[EagleMBA]

I don't want to reiterate my earlier post supporting about 40,000 seats; Plumm says it as eloquently as anyone. There are so many reasons to think big and build it. Flyer mentioned the cost of a second deck, but a second deck should be more economical on a per seat basis. Bathrooms ARE very expensive and I'm sure there must be some relevant ratios concerning potties/seats. Let's think about this together. You have site prep, which shouldn't be a lot more either way. You have a field to install. You have footings to pour which will have to be strong enough to hold the larger stadium anyway, unless you envision a Notre Dame-style "combover" of their original stadium. You have a certain amount of electrical, plumbing, concession/kitchen space, etc. that you have to put in anyway. Bathrooms costs should vary directly with the number of seats. Like building a house, you should get cheaper costs per seat by going up (just like your cost per square foot of living space goes down as you add stories). Stadium construction is a specialty (no experience claimed here, for the record) and I know the powers-that-be have surely been consulting the experts in that niche. If there are hard and fast, tried and true formulae for stadium construction I wish someone would lay those out for discussion. There may be constraints (other than the well-known and stipulated financial) which govern stadium construction. Availability of land is NOT one of them, and I think the footprint of a 40,000-seat stadium would not be drastically different than a 30,000-seat stadium. It would certainly not be 33% bigger. Does distance from the field become too great by trying to do 40,000 seats on one level?

Sorry for the Plumm-esque post. In fact, this is probably the longest post I have ever made. I've exposed my naivete, so start shooting.

[NM Green]

I say 40,000 but a tight 33,000 - 35,000 without the major expense of an upper deck would still allow us to bring in a Texas Tech. That will probably be the largest type program we can get in our new house with less than 40,000 seats.

Next, I went to Dodger Stadium over the weekend and had an absolutely awesome experience! For a dive of a field they spin it smartly. The stadium was built in 1962 and they market the nostalgia theme everywhere - "Fabulous Dodger Stadium, established 1962." When they put the players up on the scoreboard they write their name in the 50's style script. It looked like the script you would see in a diner or on a diner menu. Everything is built on the history and legacy of the Dodger organization.

Why doesn't Fouts do something like this? I know it is a stretch and we are shooting for new, flash and contemporary, but while stuck in Fouts why don't we market the history of that great stadium? I have only been watching since "86, but think about all of the memorable games, championships, players...It was just a feel that Dodger Stadium conveyed that I kept feeling if done right could be replicated as part of the gameday educational experience:"through the corridors," "breakthrough years," "Impact players," "Dramatic moments" - the rainstorm game against Nevada, the Championship game against NMSU, the Baylor thrashing, the Redwine catch or whoever it was against Oregon State, the 14 - 7 win over SMU, last year's victory over SMU, the interception return for a touchdown on the last play of the game against SHSU, the Utah State offensive explosion, our first trip to Overtime! You name it, before the game and at key moments you flash that memory up on the screen and rekindle the memories while educating the new fans.

Sorry for the rant but while living in a historical field we may as well capitalize on all of the memorable moments. It would make the countdown to our new digs something special.

GMG

[PlummMeanGreen]

I don't want to reiterate my earlier post supporting about 40,000 seats; Plumm says it as eloquently as anyone. There are so many reasons to think big and build it. Flyer mentioned the cost of a second deck, but a second deck should be more economical on a per seat basis. Bathrooms ARE very expensive and I'm sure there must be some relevant ratios concerning potties/seats. Let's think about this together. You have site prep, which shouldn't be a lot more either way. You have a field to install. You have footings to pour which will have to be strong enough to hold the larger stadium anyway, unless you envision a Notre Dame-style "combover" of their original stadium. You have a certain amount of electrical, plumbing, concession/kitchen space, etc. that you have to put in anyway. Bathrooms costs should vary directly with the number of seats. Like building a house, you should get cheaper costs per seat by going up (just like your cost per square foot of living space goes down as you add stories). Stadium construction is a specialty (no experience claimed here, for the record) and I know the powers-that-be have surely been consulting the experts in that niche. If there are hard and fast, tried and true formulae for stadium construction I wish someone would lay those out for discussion. There may be constraints (other than the well-known and stipulated financial) which govern stadium construction. Availability of land is NOT one of them, and I think the footprint of a 40,000-seat stadium would not be drastically different than a 30,000-seat stadium. It would certainly not be 33% bigger. Does distance from the field become too great by trying to do 40,000 seats on one level?

Sorry for the Plumm-esque post. In fact, this is probably the longest post I have ever made. I've exposed my naivete, so start shooting.

Heck, EagleMBA, I've had sentences as long as your, uh, "Plumm-esqe" post! I do like your HSO's on a 40K stadium for our main campus.

I mentioned 17,500 for both east and west sideline seating areas (+ 5K for one endzone) for our new stadium w/o there being a need for a double deck. Aren't there similar or larger stadiums (40K) in NCAA D1-A; that is w/o any double decks? Surely there would be.

I would think most on GMG.com would know that any suspension building for a new stadium, that is, double deckers seating, are where the costs for a new stadium really esculates. If you get all 40K w/o suspension decks, then you do get the better priced stadium.

NOTE: NM Green points out that 33-35,000 might only get a Texas Tech into Denton and I fully agree with him; thus the main reason 40K would help us get more upper profile Big 12 schools into Denton; you know, like TCU did when they hosted OU at Amon Carter Stadium a few years ago at their 47,000 seat ACS?

How many ever thought OU would ever come to the Metroplex for a football game except for the TX/OU game at Fair Park? Hmmm? How many seats at TCU's football stadium made that possible with OU? Was it one with seating in the 40's?

Edited August 7, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[kj86]

Here's my idea. 20K on the pressbox side, 5K in the endzone and 13K on the other side (this side could eventually be expanded with an upper deck). That's 38,000. I think that's a good size to start.

[PlummMeanGreen]

IF we could get 75% of the enrollment to enjoy a saturday game (4 times this year), we could justify the need for a 35-40k stadium. When the kids come to the stadium and have a good time they will return. Alums are excited. SLC and their fans are probably excited. We are getting more media coverage than I ever remember. This is the year. I don't think anyone sees us beating OU, but if we take care of business with the conference and Navy & SMUT, this year could be great.

If UNT ever got 75% of its enrollment to any football game in Denton that would all but be an unbeatable NCAA D1-A student attendance record that even Top 10 schools could not ever pull off.

This thread title should really be the main theme as to what we really plan to do with our new stadium as in.............."Taking It To A New Level?"

It we build about the same size we have now, I don't think many would see that as "taking it to a new level." Again, our stadium capacity will obviously be based on the funds raised for this new stadium, but if we shoot for the moon with all this fundraising, maybe we can hit the barn with that being a stadium around the 35-40,000 seat range. I mean, who prefers a Chevy over a Jaguar or a 30,000 seat stadium over one that seats 40,000?

If you've been around UNT for long, you would be among the first to understand that waiting on an expansion of whatever we end up building might have us waiting as long for that project as we have to replace Fouts Field in the first place. After all, look how long it took us to catch up to rest of the NCAA D1 gang to improve the Super Pit. We do sometimes move at a snail's (but most certain) pace in Denton at times--agree?

If we can distance ourselves from all the non-BCS schools that have these 30K-33K seat stadiums, it just might well open up some things for UNT in the future (re-alignment for starters?) such as has happened with TCU (BTW..............a perennial doormat or 2'nd division school during most of the SWC's last 25-40 years of operation); yet TCU (without a doubt) has now begun to have things open up for them with their 40,000 plus sized football stadium. I still defer to the fact that they could schedule OU to come to the Metroplex (and Amon Carter Stadium) when few of us would have ever thought OU would come back to the Metroplex for any game outside their TX/OU game during the State Fair of Texas.

And no, TCU does not fill their stadium every Game Day when they play some low profile OOC opponents or even some MWC conference games, either AND.......................TCU has hardly spent millions the last 2-3 years with their football facility improvements entirely based on their own student support because (quite frankly) there have been times when UNT has had as many (or even exceeded) of our own students at Fouts Field on Game Day than TCU's entire enrollment.

Edited August 7, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[ADLER]

A 30 to 35 thousand seat stadium would be sufficient for now, but.....

only a fool would build infrastructure based only on current demand.

Plumm may be extremely long-winded, but he is 100% correct on this point.

The stadium needs to be designed and built for anticipated need 10 to 15 years from now.

Don't build a tiny stadium which has some ability to be expanded, BUILD A SUFFICIENT STADIUM THAT IS DESIGNED TO BE EXPANDED.

Let's use the Royal-Memorial model as an example.

Build only the lower bowl east and west seating (probably 20k per side) and only a small amount (maybe first 20 rows) of the north end-zone seating.

When expansion is next necessary, complete the bowl on the north end.

Then, if expansion eventually becomes necessary again, add that expensive upper deck seating.

[NT80]

Let's use the Royal-Memorial model as an example.

Build only the lower bowl east and west seating (probably 20k per side) and only a small amount (maybe first 20 rows) of the north end-zone seating.

When expansion is next necessary, complete the bowl on the north end.

Then, if expansion eventually becomes necessary again, add that expensive upper deck seating.

Excellent example. I like the single level stands, and that even looks like our setup with the AC in the endzone. Let's build!

[PlummMeanGreen]

A 30 to 35 thousand seat stadium would be sufficient for now, but.....

only a fool would build infrastructure based only on current demand.

Plumm may be extremely long-winded, but he is 100% correct on this point.

The stadium needs to be designed and built for anticipated need 10 to 15 years from now.

Don't build a tiny stadium which has some ability to be expanded, BUILD A SUFFICIENT STADIUM THAT IS DESIGNED TO BE EXPANDED.

Let's use the Royal-Memorial model as an example.

Build only the lower bowl east and west seating (probably 20k per side) and only a small amount (maybe first 20 rows) of the north end-zone seating.

When expansion is next necessary, complete the bowl on the north end.

Then, if expansion eventually becomes necessary again, add that expensive upper deck seating.

Right on, ADLER...I've not yet heard of any school, (mega)church, college or organization in the DFW Metroplex that has built their infra-structure based on current demand. Hopefully, UNT won't buck that trend.

Casepoint: Prestonwood Church relocated their mega-church to the northern Dallas County area and built their new church plant not based on their (then) membership, but with full expectations of filling their new mega-facility and from all that I've read in the Dallas Morning News---they've done that quite sufficiently. They moved out of the actual Prestonwood area of Dallas way out to northern Dallas County in a growth area and that growth area much like Denton County's.

ADLER, a 40,000 seat stadium with 20K on the east & 20K on the west sides at the MG Village (a la UT's DKR Memorial Stadium) would be quite sufficient for Mean Green football for years to come; that is, unless we have a "super-growth" scenario such as Prestonwood Church did when they moved to a boom growth area.

UNT can either dream big with all this or just do our usual "business as usual" approach which (IMHO) is a prime reason we have (probably) never been seriously considered by a conference or 2 many of us would prefer.

PS: I'd love some upper scale hotel chain to build a hotel in our north end zone with about 5,000 seats attached to it as well as luxury suites in the part of the hotel looking southward over the playing field. Now wouldn't that be a down-right hoot for our new football palace?

Edited August 9, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen