Fw*telegram On New Stadium Status Link

NT80 · July 28, 2007

You are right. The present facility says 'We don't care if anyone comes or not.' In contrast, I think of some of the nice minor league baseball parks I have seen like in Memphis and Round Rock. They give off a sense of class, certainly as compared to Fouts.

My image of a school is directly related to the appearance and upkeep of their football stadium. :ph34r:

UNTFan23 · July 28, 2007

oldschoollefty · July 28, 2007

I'm going to stick my neck out a little and risk taking this discussion off in another direction entirely but while reading the previous 11 pages, a few thoughts occured to me. I realize I am exposing myself to ridicule here, but what the hell, here goes...

As we all know, Jerryworld opens for the Cowboys 2009 season opener meaning that sometime in late December 2008 or January 2009, Texas Stadium officially becomes a white elephant. Obviously, it is an aged facility, in some ways not too gracefully, but it has been updated in many areas also. 2009 has been bandied about as a nice time to open a new stadium at Eagle Point and the city of Irving has a major demolition headache on its schedule, how about this as a possibility?

Before this goes any further, I am not proposing a move of Texas Stadium to Denton but in the interest of saving precious funds, what about some sort of salvage operation utilizing reusable hardware from the stadium i.e., seats, plumbing, electronics and so forth? I understand the excavation work remains the same, the superstructure still needs to be built and so on but if some of the outfitting costs could be reduced, what would be the harm in exploring this?

Besides, look at the possible positive publicity for the university. Tons of reusable material would not be going to a landfill somewhere, money could be saved, maybe our new stadium could become a reality a little sooner, and North Texas could be hailed as environmental heroes for building a "greener" facility and leaving a smaller carbon footprint.

Oh well, whether this is feasible or not, I'll see you in good ol' Fouts this fall.

GrandGreen · July 28, 2007

A stadium of any size will not solve NT's problems. Those that think that attendance will significantly increase solely because of a new venue are not paying attention. The building of the Superpit did not increase attendance at NT basketball despite being probably the best college arena in the state for many years. Ford stadium at SMU despite being an excellent venue has not vaulted SMU's attendance. Yes, there would be initial spike upward in attendance with a new stadium but that will only be sustained with continued growth of the football program. This growth is much more dependent on winning and opponents than facilities.

As far as significantly upgrading the schedule, this is also a dream. Not going to happen. Colleges pick their oc schedule with two factors in mind, net revenue and winning. There is no scenario that you can paint were it makes economic sense for a upper tier program with a 60,000 plus stadium to play an away game unless they are playing another mega program. Plus why would they play an away game and thus lower their chances of winning when they don't have to. Yes, there are away games scheduled, to give teams visiting experience before conference and to cultivate recruiting areas, but there are not many of these games and the stadium is not a big factor. Again the big factors are economics and winning probability. A larger stadium would of course be a factor in the amount of guaranty that NT could offer but the cost of the extra seats probably would be much more than any benefit from an occasional game with a BCS team.

NT has painted themselves into a corner with the constant talk of a new stadium. Failure to get ground broke soon on a new stadium after all the talk will indeed be a big black eye for the program. In the current 1a arms race it is probably imperative to get a new facility. Not because it will increase attendance, advance scheduling or even make sense on any kind of financial model, but because it is necessary to keep pace with the competition in the athletic arms race.

the real grad88 · July 28, 2007

"We (still) and always have needed a Big Donor with all this and that part still has not changed and will not change. What talents do we have on our campus at present who have the moxy and savvy to get such monies from a potential Big Donor? That may be the source of our main problem at UNT, folks..."

Uh, Plumm, I do believe that is part of the President's and Chancellor's responsibilities. When it comes to getting new members for the President's Council or such, that is a common ordinary Dev Officer's responsibilities...but when it comes to getting gifts of the size we need for a new stadium, the buck stops at the top I am pleased to tell you. Maybe if the BOR started holding the folks at the top accountable for this venture, something might get done.

EagleD · July 28, 2007

Some Monty Python to ease the pain.

King of Swamp Castle: Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.

and,

When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.

I get the feeling RV is the King of Swamp Castle right now. Fouts being swamp castle, DD as Herbert, and Helwig as Lancelot. We are all the slaughtered victims trying to figure out what went wrong.

King of Swamp Castle is my favorite Python character.

GO MEAN GREEN !!!!!!!!!!!

"We live in a bloody swamp."

July 28, 2007

A stadium of any size will not solve NT's problems. Those that think that attendance will significantly increase solely because of a new venue are not paying attention. The building of the Superpit did not increase attendance at NT basketball despite being probably the best college arena in the state for many years. Ford stadium at SMU despite being an excellent venue has not vaulted SMU's attendance. Yes, there would be initial spike upward in attendance with a new stadium but that will only be sustained with continued growth of the football program. This growth is much more dependent on winning and opponents than facilities.
As far as significantly upgrading the schedule, this is also a dream. Not going to happen. Colleges pick their oc schedule with two factors in mind, net revenue and winning. There is no scenario that you can paint were it makes economic sense for a upper tier program with a 60,000 plus stadium to play an away game unless they are playing another mega program. Plus why would they play an away game and thus lower their chances of winning when they don't have to. Yes, there are away games scheduled, to give teams visiting experience before conference and to cultivate recruiting areas, but there are not many of these games and the stadium is not a big factor. Again the big factors are economics and winning probability. A larger stadium would of course be a factor in the amount of guaranty that NT could offer but the cost of the extra seats probably would be much more than any benefit from an occasional game with a BCS team.
NT has painted themselves into a corner with the constant talk of a new stadium. Failure to get ground broke soon on a new stadium after all the talk will indeed be a big black eye for the program. In the current 1a arms race it is probably imperative to get a new facility. Not because it will increase attendance, advance scheduling or even make sense on any kind of financial model, but because it is necessary to keep pace with the competition in the athletic arms race.

That is the most sane, sound and sensible post that I've read in a long time. I can't find a point that I really disagree with to any extent.

Oh, a shiny, new 40,000 seat stadium might improve our ability to schedule a few, mostly Big 12 schools (Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Kansas, maybe others) but that's about it. It will never attract a Texas, Oklahoma, or Texas A&M. As Grand pointed out the only real plus from a larger stadium might be the ability to guarantee a larger payout.

So far, we haven't justified the building of anything larger than our current stadium. We've only had one virtual sellout since the capacity was raised to 30,500. We've had no season average in excess of 20,000. I do expect that to change this coming year but until it happens I don't see justification for that kind of expenditure. If warranted, the stadium can and will be expanded. Remember, we are only talking about TWO games per year. We can't do anything about the conference games.

The only point in Grand's post that I might slightly disagree with is the "painting ourselves into a corner." It is possible that we can get a black eye from all this but on the other hand nothing will get done if you don't put pressure on yourself. However, saying too much can also be self-defeating. The trick is to know when to speak and when to listen.

PlummMeanGreen · July 29, 2007

A stadium of any size will not solve NT's problems. Those that think that attendance will significantly increase solely because of a new venue are not paying attention. The building of the Superpit did not increase attendance at NT basketball despite being probably the best college arena in the state for many years. Ford stadium at SMU despite being an excellent venue has not vaulted SMU's attendance. Yes, there would be initial spike upward in attendance with a new stadium but that will only be sustained with continued growth of the football program. This growth is much more dependent on winning and opponents than facilities.
As far as significantly upgrading the schedule, this is also a dream. Not going to happen. Colleges pick their oc schedule with two factors in mind, net revenue and winning. There is no scenario that you can paint were it makes economic sense for a upper tier program with a 60,000 plus stadium to play an away game unless they are playing another mega program. Plus why would they play an away game and thus lower their chances of winning when they don't have to. Yes, there are away games scheduled, to give teams visiting experience before conference and to cultivate recruiting areas, but there are not many of these games and the stadium is not a big factor. Again the big factors are economics and winning probability. A larger stadium would of course be a factor in the amount of guaranty that NT could offer but the cost of the extra seats probably would be much more than any benefit from an occasional game with a BCS team.
NT has painted themselves into a corner with the constant talk of a new stadium. Failure to get ground broke soon on a new stadium after all the talk will indeed be a big black eye for the program. In the current 1a arms race it is probably imperative to get a new facility. Not because it will increase attendance, advance scheduling or even make sense on any kind of financial model, but because it is necessary to keep pace with the competition in the athletic arms race.

Good post with some points I agree and a couple I disagree with so............let me chase a few green rabbits of my own.

First of all, with our present 30,500 seat Fouts Field, we seem to (of late) have gone into some kind of a dormant stage as far as scheduling Southwest regional schools such as TCU and Baylor (yet we think building a new stadium with 500 less seats than Fouts Field is going to be some kind of panacea to our future needs)? I'd say a 30,000 seat stadium at the Mean Green Village will guarantee that Todd Dodge is a short-termer in Denton (he will need a larger stadium to recruit against those he'd really like to recruit against); and I also feel it will secure our SBC'esque reputation of being a perennial Bottom 25'er of a football program for another half-century (minimum). Has really that much good happen for us the last 25 years in Denton that was anywhere near the Top 25? Another question: Is it time that UNT athletics put in its mission statement for our football program (if it hasn't already) that Top 25 rankings are really what we are aiming for in Denton? If that is not our goals for this football program, then what are we aiming for in Denton? Perhaps, paying out to a hardy handful some decent salaries while a handful of that group keep jukin' and jivin' those who will believe just about anything they tell many of our elect? Moving on..............

Other SBC schools have even scheduled Top 20 (#19 Missouri at Troy U on ESPN1) and MTSU seems to be making some positive inroads with upgrading their own home schedule with known opponents. We have Navy this year because of some scheduling quirk in someone elses schedule as I heard it--was it Akron U we worked with on this for us to get Navy? Seems like a 1 game deal like our Army game has turned out to be.

University of Central Florida has Texas in their stadium opener but now some are saying we can't do the same? UT has (of most all the ex SWC/Big 12 schools have been most accomodating with North Texas and I think an aggressive AD like we have with Rick Villarreal could pull off a home & home with the Horns but..................in a larger stadium; that is, much larger than 30,000 seats.

TCU hosted OU a few years ago at Amon Carter Stadium over here in Fort Worth (when many of us said the Sooners would never come to the Metroplex except for the Texas/OU weekend. Many of us were wrong about that, too. Quite frankly, many of us with UNT ties are wrong about a lot of things when it comes to Big Time NCAA D1-A athletics and what road map we need to use to get there. I do know if we don't use a different road map than we've been using the last 25 years, we are going to keep getting the same results. Anyone out there really want this football program to be ranked nationally where it was ranked even during 4 bowl years?

UNT is no Boise State and we have a different set of problems than Boise State will never relate to of which a major one is our being in a state that has 9 other NCAA D1-A schools located in it and with UNT even having 2 of those schools within 50 miles of Denton (which sorta' compounds our uniqueness as compared to Boise State).

With North Texas being 1 of 10 NCAA D1-A schools in the state of Texas, aren't we really going to have to do something a bit more (hellsbells, a whole bunch more) grandiose with our on-campus football stadium to try to distinguish ourselves (in some way or another) from the other 9 Texas-based NCAA D1-A schools? And what giant statement (or edifice) could do this better than anything else for UNT that 4 bowl games didn't?

GrandGreen, there were better crowds in the Super Pit not long after its opening. I was an NT student living in Denton and made most every game (if not all). I (as many on this forum) saw those better crowds. We were part of them. One such crowd was 10,700 in the Super Pit for a home game against SMU.

The Super Pit with Bill Blakely as our 2'nd coach after its grand opening in 1972 were actually heading in the right direction until another AD came in post-Fry and then promptly fired Bill Blakely. Some of you in years past have constantly reminded me of the days when we were NT students and how we had to get to the Super Pit pretty early to get a good seat. No, we rarely sold out the Super Pit, but we had better overall crowds back then than we have had in a a very long time. We all hope Johnny Jones is bringing Mean Green basketball alive again as a money-maker; but football is still King with me (and always will be).

I know we will ultimately end up building capacity-wise what our fund-raisers are able to raise, but if Mean Joe Greene walked into a conference room with a group of NT fund-rasier to ask for Big Money compared to John Q. UNT Employee" don't you think we have a better chance to really stimulate much more interest with all this new stadium business? Instead of Mean Joe Greene, you can also insert names like Hayden Fry, Bill Blakely, Tim Fitzpatrick (a talent we let get away from us) and others with name ID and UNT ties. And no, I'm not ready to say NT Ex Don Henley would be one of this group, either.

Edited July 29, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

NT80 · July 29, 2007

Oh, a shiny, new 40,000 seat stadium might improve our ability to schedule a few, mostly Big 12 schools (Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Kansas, maybe others) but that's about it. It will never attract a Texas, Oklahoma, or Texas A&M. As Grand pointed out the only real plus from a larger stadium might be the ability to guarantee a larger payout.
So far, we haven't justified the building of anything larger than our current stadium. We've only had one virtual sellout since the capacity was raised to 30,500. We've had no season average in excess of 20,000. I do expect that to change this coming year but until it happens I don't see justification for that kind of expenditure. If warranted, the stadium can and will be expanded. Remember, we are only talking about TWO games per year. We can't do anything about the conference games.

I would have a much easier time trying to bring some fans I know to games if it was to a new stadium and not Fouts. It DOES make a difference to some fans!

MeanGreen61 · July 29, 2007

I would have a much easier time trying to bring some fans I know to games if it was to a new stadium and not Fouts. It DOES make a difference to some fans!

I want a new stadium as much as anyone. That said, I've brought people to Fouts and the stadium has never been a factor or really come up in discussions.

Edited July 29, 2007 by MeanGreen61

July 29, 2007

Good post with some points I agree and a couple I disagree with so............let me chase a few green rabbits of my own.
First of all, with our present 30,500 seat Fouts Field, we seem to (of late) have gone into some kind of a dormant stage as far as scheduling Southwest regional schools such as TCU and Baylor (yet we think building a new stadium with 500 less seats than Fouts Field is going to be some kind of panacea to our future needs)? I'd say a 30,000 seat stadium at the Mean Green Village will guarantee that Todd Dodge is a short-termer in Denton (he will need a larger stadium to recruit against those he'd really like to recruit against); and I also feel it will secure our SBC'esque reputation of being a perennial Bottom 25'er of a football program for another half-century (minimum). Has really that much good happen for us the last 25 years in Denton that was anywhere near the Top 25? Another question: Is it time that UNT athletics put in its mission statement for our football program (if it hasn't already) that Top 25 rankings are really what we are aiming for in Denton? If that is not our goals for this football program, then what are we aiming for in Denton? Perhaps, paying out to a hardy handful some decent salaries while a handful of that group keep jukin' and jivin' those who will believe just about anything they tell many of our elect? Moving on..............
Other SBC schools have even scheduled Top 20 (#19 Missouri at Troy U on ESPN1) and MTSU seems to be making some positive inroads with upgrading their own home schedule with known opponents. We have Navy this year because of some scheduling quirk in someone elses schedule as I heard it--was it Akron U we worked with on this for us to get Navy? Seems like a 1 game deal like our Army game has turned out to be.
University of Central Florida has Texas in their stadium opener but now some are saying we can't do the same? UT has (of most all the ex SWC/Big 12 schools have been most accomodating with North Texas and I think an aggressive AD like we have with Rick Villarreal could pull off a home & home with the Horns but..................in a larger stadium; that is, much larger than 30,000 seats.
TCU hosted OU a few years ago at Amon Carter Stadium over here in Fort Worth (when many of us said the Sooners would never come to the Metroplex except for the Texas/OU weekend. Many of us were wrong about that, too. Quite frankly, many of us with UNT ties are wrong about a lot of things when it comes to Big Time NCAA D1-A athletics and what road map we need to use to get there. I do know if we don't use a different road map than we've been using the last 25 years, we are going to keep getting the same results. Anyone out there really want this football program to be ranked nationally where it was ranked even during 4 bowl years?
UNT is no Boise State and we have a different set of problems than Boise State will never relate to of which a major one is our being in a state that has 9 other NCAA D1-A schools located in it and with UNT even having 2 of those schools within 50 miles of Denton (which sorta' compounds our uniqueness as compared to Boise State).
With North Texas being 1 of 10 NCAA D1-A schools in the state of Texas, aren't we really going to have to do something a bit more (hellsbells, a whole bunch more) grandiose with our on-campus football stadium to try to distinguish ourselves (in some way or another) from the other 9 Texas-based NCAA D1-A schools? And what giant statement (or edifice) could do this better than anything else for UNT that 4 bowl games didn't?
GrandGreen, there were better crowds in the Super Pit not long after its opening. I was an NT student living in Denton and made most every game (if not all). I (as many on this forum) saw those better crowds. We were part of them. One such crowd was 10,700 in the Super Pit for a home game against SMU.
The Super Pit with Bill Blakely as our 2'nd coach after its grand opening in 1972 were actually heading in the right direction until another AD came in post-Fry and then promptly fired Bill Blakely. Some of you in years past have constantly reminded me of the days when we were NT students and how we had to get to the Super Pit pretty early to get a good seat. No, we rarely sold out the Super Pit, but we had better overall crowds back then than we have had in a a very long time. We all hope Johnny Jones is bringing Mean Green basketball alive again as a money-maker; but football is still King with me (and always will be).
I know we will ultimately end up building capacity-wise what our fund-raisers are able to raise, but if Mean Joe Greene walked into a conference room with a group of NT fund-rasier to ask for Big Money compared to John Q. UNT Employee" don't you think we have a better chance to really stimulate much more interest with all this new stadium business? Instead of Mean Joe Greene, you can also insert names like Hayden Fry, Bill Blakely, Tim Fitzpatrick (a talent we let get away from us) and others with name ID and UNT ties. And no, I'm not ready to say NT Ex Don Henley would be one of this group, either.

Let me qualify my rant by first saying that I totally agree that we need a new stadium. Most of my argument has to do with the size of the new stadium.

You said that we're getting dormant on scheduling regional opponents...maybe it is dwindling a little. We only have SMU, Oklahoma, and Arkansas this year. Last year we had SMU and Tulsa. I believe that we've had Baylor four times, Texas Tech three, TCU three, SMU twice, Tulsa twice, Texas three times, Oklahoma three times, LSU twice, Arkansas once (plus this fall), Texas A&M and Houston once within the last ten years.

As to the stadium, the plans that were described to me had 32,000 seats in Phase I, which is 1,500 more seats than Fouts. Not only that, these seats will be close enough to the field to see the players' numbers.

I don't think that the immediate size of the stadium at Eagle Point will have anything to do with the longevity of Todd Dodge's tenure. Because if Todd Dodge can win like we all think that he can, the public will demand a larger stadium by filling the one that we have.

IMO the Top 50 is a goal; the Top 25 is either a pipe dream or a goal after we reach the Top 50. There have only been a handful of non-BCS universities to reach the Top 25 since there's been that separation. I can think of Brigham Young, TCU, Boise State, and Utah. Fresno State and Bowling Green slipped in at around #25 for one season. And, you are helping make my point. Four Sun Belt championships only produced two rankings in the 50s. When you're in the Belt you have to do a little extra to get noticed. The MWC and the WAC have more prestige.

Now I'm at a loss to understand how TCU was able to lure OU to Fort Worth. Oklahoma has played nine non-conference games away from Owen in the past TEN years and one was at TCU. Louisville was the only other non-conference foe that they played at their stadium during that period. But OU, like Texas, comes to Dallas every year and has no (recruiting) need to come to the Metroplex twice in one year.

You mention that Troy was able to get a home game against Missouri. The last time that I checked, Troy only had a 30,000 seat stadium.

Let's see, if we used the same road map that we used 25 years ago, we'd now be dropping to 1-AA and we'd be using the buddy system for hiring ADs and coaches. That would be a fate worse than death penalty. We'd join UTA as a basketball school with about the same degree of success. No, I don't believe that history will ever repeat itself.

Good grief, Jim, how do write these volumes? I'm worn out and I barely got started. Anyway, you get my drift. It's easier to raise $45 million than $60 million. It's also a smarter business decision based on history. Remember again....we've never had a season average of more than 20,000. If they come, we will build it.

PlummMeanGreen · July 29, 2007

My image of a school is directly related to the appearance and upkeep of their football stadium.

And so many have judged our entire school in past decades based on Fouts when they commuted past our venerable ol' stadium.

I worked in Dallas years ago and all I ever got from many co-workers when the subject of NT came up was: "That HS stadium of yalls off the interstate."

GrandGreen · July 29, 2007

Good post with some points I agree and a couple I disagree with so............let me chase a few green rabbits of my own.
First of all, with our present 30,500 seat Fouts Field, we seem to (of late) have gone into some kind of a dormant stage as far as scheduling Southwest regional schools such as TCU and Baylor (yet we think building a new stadium with 500 less seats than Fouts Field is going to be some kind of panacea to our future needs)? I'd say a 30,000 seat stadium at the Mean Green Village will guarantee that Todd Dodge is a short-termer in Denton (he will need a larger stadium to recruit against those he'd really like to recruit against); and I also feel it will secure our SBC'esque reputation of being a perennial Bottom 25'er of a football program for another half-century (minimum). Has really that much good happen for us the last 25 years in Denton that was anywhere near the Top 25? Another question: Is it time that UNT athletics put in its mission statement for our football program (if it hasn't already) that Top 25 rankings are really what we are aiming for in Denton? If that is not our goals for this football program, then what are we aiming for in Denton? Perhaps, paying out to a hardy handful some decent salaries while a handful of that group keep jukin' and jivin' those who will believe just about anything they tell many of our elect? Moving on..............
Other SBC schools have even scheduled Top 20 (#19 Missouri at Troy U on ESPN1) and MTSU seems to be making some positive inroads with upgrading their own home schedule with known opponents. We have Navy this year because of some scheduling quirk in someone elses schedule as I heard it--was it Akron U we worked with on this for us to get Navy? Seems like a 1 game deal like our Army game has turned out to be.
University of Central Florida has Texas in their stadium opener but now some are saying we can't do the same? UT has (of most all the ex SWC/Big 12 schools have been most accomodating with North Texas and I think an aggressive AD like we have with Rick Villarreal could pull off a home & home with the Horns but..................in a larger stadium; that is, much larger than 30,000 seats.
TCU hosted OU a few years ago at Amon Carter Stadium over here in Fort Worth (when many of us said the Sooners would never come to the Metroplex except for the Texas/OU weekend. Many of us were wrong about that, too. Quite frankly, many of us with UNT ties are wrong about a lot of things when it comes to Big Time NCAA D1-A athletics and what road map we need to use to get there. I do know if we don't use a different road map than we've been using the last 25 years, we are going to keep getting the same results. Anyone out there really want this football program to be ranked nationally where it was ranked even during 4 bowl years?
UNT is no Boise State and we have a different set of problems than Boise State will never relate to of which a major one is our being in a state that has 9 other NCAA D1-A schools located in it and with UNT even having 2 of those schools within 50 miles of Denton (which sorta' compounds our uniqueness as compared to Boise State).
With North Texas being 1 of 10 NCAA D1-A schools in the state of Texas, aren't we really going to have to do something a bit more (hellsbells, a whole bunch more) grandiose with our on-campus football stadium to try to distinguish ourselves (in some way or another) from the other 9 Texas-based NCAA D1-A schools? And what giant statement (or edifice) could do this better than anything else for UNT that 4 bowl games didn't?
GrandGreen, there were better crowds in the Super Pit not long after its opening. I was an NT student living in Denton and made most every game (if not all). I (as many on this forum) saw those better crowds. We were part of them. One such crowd was 10,700 in the Super Pit for a home game against SMU.
The Super Pit with Bill Blakely as our 2'nd coach after its grand opening in 1972 were actually heading in the right direction until another AD came in post-Fry and then promptly fired Bill Blakely. Some of you in years past have constantly reminded me of the days when we were NT students and how we had to get to the Super Pit pretty early to get a good seat. No, we rarely sold out the Super Pit, but we had better overall crowds back then than we have had in a a very long time. We all hope Johnny Jones is bringing Mean Green basketball alive again as a money-maker; but football is still King with me (and always will be).
I know we will ultimately end up building capacity-wise what our fund-raisers are able to raise, but if Mean Joe Greene walked into a conference room with a group of NT fund-rasier to ask for Big Money compared to John Q. UNT Employee" don't you think we have a better chance to really stimulate much more interest with all this new stadium business? Instead of Mean Joe Greene, you can also insert names like Hayden Fry, Bill Blakely, Tim Fitzpatrick (a talent we let get away from us) and others with name ID and UNT ties. And no, I'm not ready to say NT Ex Don Henley would be one of this group, either.

JP, I love your passion. I have watched the program longer than you and don't quite have the same vision. Apparently NT is going to have to have a lot of good fortune to raise funds for a 30,000 seat stadium. I am sure if they could get donations to fund it. NT would be glad to erect a 40,000 to 45,000 capacity stadium. But if NT is going to have to as it appears; scrape for every nickel and dime, it makes absolutely no sense to fund a larger stadium than needed. Raising student fees, committing to long term bond contracts and squeezing every cent out of the program because you may have a chance at a Kansas, Baylor coming to your home would be in fact stupid.

As far as TD leaving because NT does not build a larger stadium. What is your logic? You think TD is more apt to stay if no stadium is built. A more likely scenario if NT built your dream stadium is that TD leaves because NT overspend and has little or no financial resources.

I have already given my opinion on scheduling. If you actually believe that a 50,000 seat stadium is going to significantly improve your ability to attract more attractive oc opponents then we definitely have a difference of opinion. I can't wait for that home and home with UT. It would only cost UT about $3,000,000 to.$4,000,000 to make that deal instead of their normal patsy at home schedule. Possible sure; likely, hardly. You mention Missouri at Troy. Does Troy have a 50,000 capacity stadium?

As far as the Super Pit, average attendance has never even been half of capacity. You mention the one sell out game in history that was largely the result of unprecedented newspaper hype. As far as Blakeley's early teams having higher than normal attendance, I think that proves my point more than yours. You win 20+ games for three years and yes your attendance will definitely increase, had nothing to do with the arena. If it did you would have seem the increase continue after Blakeley started losing or the years before when the arena was brand new.

There are few if any that post on this site that don't want NT to grow their athletic program. Your reference to top 25 status would indeed be great but I fail to see at this time any direct connection to the size of a football stadium. I would sing hallelujah if NT announced a 30,000 seat stadium. If a bigger stadium is needed and can be supported, I see nothing wrong with waiting until that point to build additional capacity. I just do not believe in "build it and they will come" applies to NT facilities.

gangrene · July 29, 2007

As far as significantly upgrading the schedule, this is also a dream. Not going to happen. Colleges pick their oc schedule with two factors in mind, net revenue and winning. There is no scenario that you can paint were it makes economic sense for a upper tier program with a 60,000 plus stadium to play an away game unless they are playing another mega program. Plus why would they play an away game and thus lower their chances of winning when they don't have to. Yes, there are away games scheduled, to give teams visiting experience before conference and to cultivate recruiting areas, but there are not many of these games and the stadium is not a big factor. Again the big factors are economics and winning probability. A larger stadium would of course be a factor in the amount of guaranty that NT could offer but the cost of the extra seats probably would be much more than any benefit from an occasional game with a BCS team.

I agree with most of this. However, an occasional home game against a BCS school could do wonders for UNT if we had a larger stadium. Let's just say we got Oklahoma State (since they are playing at Troy this year) to visit our new 45,000 seat stadium and it sold out because OSU fans travel well and there is a decent amount of OSU alumni in the DFW area. Then let's say we averaged only 15,000 for the rest of the season; four more games this year. That's a total of 105,000 for five games which averages out to 21,000 per game. That one sell-out of the 45K stadium would be equal to three games at our 15K average and results in a 6K per game lift over the course of the season. When conferences are looking to expand, one thing they may consider is average attendance and the fact that we gained most of our season's attendance from a single game would not be considered in a negative way. In addition, we give our team a better chance to win by playing at home and we possibly gain additional national exposure with recruits by either live television broadcasts or highlight clips that will feature our stadium.

I don't consider CUSA to be head and shoulders above the SBC but many CUSA schools were able to entice some pretty high profile programs to visit CUSA stadiums this year.

Marshall will host West Virginia (home stadium seats 60K) in their 38,049 capacity Joan C. Edwards Stadium.

UCF will host Texas (home stadium seats 85,123) in their brand new 45K Bright House Networks Stadium.

Tulane will host LSU (home stadium seats 92,400) and Mississippi State (home stadium seats 55,082) in their home stadium, the New Orleans Superdome.

Tulsa will host BYU (home stadium seats 64,045) in their 35,542 capacity Skelly Stadium.

SMU will host Texas Tech (Jones Stadium seats 52,882) in 32,000 capacity Gerald Ford Stadium.

Rice will also host Texas Tech in its 57-year old Rice Stadium, which seats 70K.

Memphis will host Ole Miss (home stadium seats 60,580) in their 62,380 capacity Liberty Bowl.

East Carolina will host North Carolina (home stadium seats 60K) in their 43,000 capacity Dowdy-Ficklen Stadium.

Other interesting games in which a BCS school is visiting a non-BCS school:

Middle Tennessee State will host Virginia (home stadium seats 61,500) in their 30,788 capacity Floyd Stadium.

Florida International will host Maryland (home stadium seats 51,500) in their stadium which currently has permanent seating for 7,000.

Florida Atlantic will host South Florida (home stadium seats 65K) in their 20K capacity Lockhart Stadium.

Miami, OH will host Syracuse (home stadium seats 49,262) in their 24,286 capacity Yager Stadium.

Utah will host UCLA (home stadium seats 91,500) in their 45,017 capacity Rice-Eccles Stadium.

UNLV will host Wisconsin (home stadium seats 80,321) in their 36,800 capacity Sam Boyd Stadium.

Colorado State will host California (home stadium seats 72,516) in their 34K capacity Sonny Lubick Field.

On another note, I think the NCAA should enact a rule limiting the number of home games a school may schedule within one season. It's not fair that schools like Michigan (8 home, 4 away), Florida (8 home, 4 away), Auburn (8 home, 4 away), Arkansas (8 home, 4 away) and Oklahoma (7 home, 4 away, 1 neutral) have so many home games. It's not fair to the mid-majors and it's not fair to the other majors who go on the road to play the big games once in a while. Kudos to the PAC10 and Big East, as most their schools scheduled 6 home and 6 away games.

KingDL1 · July 29, 2007

I want a new stadium as much as anyone. That said, I've brought people to Fouts and the stadium has never been a factor or really come up in discussions.

Same here we have brought tons people out to the games and fouts is the least of our problems at the moment. More over the toughest sale was Dickey Ball, my visitors loved the Tailgating, loved the atmosphere. Dodge can only bring the energy levels up, and I personally think exponentially.

If the ifs play out!

Here are some ifs, if we start winning and if we start playing teams that have a little more regional appeal, if the student body grows to the size I have read (45,000 - 50,000), if as a School UNT does continues with its plans on being large school minded, if UNT really starts growing school spirit from the ground up with spirit camps and other programs, then the top 25 will an eventuality.

I think that if all these ifs are your goal, you had better plan on a bigger stadium. I am happy waiting until the right plan can be made as long as UNT keeps moving forward with its commitment to athletics and the football program. The last seven months have been such an exciting time to be an active fan and alumni I feel truly privileged to be alive for this part of North Texas history.

More ifs, if the ifs play out as described above everything will start to fall in place, from fund raising, to attendance and better salaries. And of course a wonderful new stadium.