Pc Police Get Another One

[eulesseagle]

North Dakota Fighting Sioux (Divison II) took on the NCAA last year and won.

ASU just needs to have the cajones to stand up to NCAA and win this one and cite Florida State, Illinois, North Dakota and however many others that are out there that still have Indian names.

[foutsrouts]

What about Blue Devils? Shouldn't that be offensive to the Satanists among us? We still do have freedom of religion in this country don't we? Geez.......

[Mean Green 93-98]

ASU just needs to have the cajones to stand up to NCAA and win this one and cite Florida State, Illinois, North Dakota and however many others that are out there that still have Indian names.

Umm, Illinois has dropped all Indian references. They have kept the name "Illini" because there was never really any such tribe. Florida State and N. Dakota have been successful because they have the backing of their respective namesakes.

[megagreen]

As far as I remember, the Seminole tribe in Florida stuck up for FSU and helped them shoot down the NCAA. (A beautiful slap in the face to the NCAA and anybody else in this world who just assumed that the Seminole or any other tribe would be offended instead of honored.) I don't know if the Sioux helped North Dakota or not.

I agree with the overwhelming sentiment on this board. We didn't pick the name Eagles or Mean Green to make fun of either moniker. We use it as a sense of identity and pride. Generally, mascots are chosen for their strength and intimidation factor. (Some miss the mark a bit .... ex. Fighting Sand Crabs, Banana Slugs, etc. ) However, if each case has to be defended in court, so be it. I guess we'll just spend more and more of our money in court.

GMG!

[EagleD]

I know it's not college related, but "Chief Wahoo" is offensive to me. Also "Washington Redskins" is a racial slur. Those are the only two instances I can think of where the Native American community has a legit argument.

Being part Polish, I'd like to nominate to the ASU committee that they be called the "Fightin' Polocks!". But if they did that, (insert joke here).

GO MEAN GREEN !!!!!!!!

[UNTflyer]

Umm, Illinois has dropped all Indian references. They have kept the name "Illini" because there was never really any such tribe. Florida State and N. Dakota have been successful because they have the backing of their respective namesakes.

And other schools have had the backing of the tribes, but they were put on the NCAA's dreaded list. The fact is, FSU is FSU... and there was no way in hell that the NCAA was going to make the 'Noles drop their name even though they have arguably the most in your face game-day traditions that SOME native Americans may find offensive (tomahawk chop, Chief Seminole and the spear, etc.)

Remember, the other factor was whether the NCAA deemed the use of Native American images as "hostile or abusive". There's nothing more hostile than the spear planting and the tomahawk chop. But... LOL... ban FSU from post season play? No way.

It's all about the Benjamins.

Edited June 18, 2007 by UNTflyer

[SilverEagle]

I know it's not college related, but "Chief Wahoo" is offensive to me. Also "Washington Redskins" is a racial slur. Those are the only two instances I can think of where the Native American community has a legit argument.

Being part Polish, I'd like to nominate to the ASU committee that they be called the "Fightin' Polocks!". But if they did that, (insert joke here).

GO MEAN GREEN !!!!!!!!

I would add "Savages" to that list of offensive terms.

I wonder if Utah is in any trouble over this. I don't know if they have any pre-game traditions with a mascot that would be considered offensive, but their name is the proper name of an indian tribe.

I would think that Warriors would not be offensive to native americans.

[Coach]

Here in Abilene, McMurry University dropped it's "Indians" nickname under this pressure, and instead of choosing a new one, has just decided to go without a nickname or mascot.

[gksmith]

Two things are most aggravating about this policy:

1. IT IS A NON-ISSUE. I do not recall any tribe or Native American complaining about the use of the various Indian type mascots. Yet the NCAA comes out with this knee jerk reaction to ban Native American mascots.

2. IT IS NOT EVENLY ENFORCED. Either they ban all of the uses of the mascot without exception or none of them. It is like saying if you drive a Dodge vehicle you can speed all you want without risk of penalty while everyone else risks a ticket. Forget the fact that Florida State has “good relations” with the Seminole tribe. Ban everyone or ban no one.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

This is absurd. Only a bunch of liberal college eggheads could come up with that decision. Threatening a lawsuit seems to send everyone running for cover.

I think that the way around it in ASU's case is to change their mascot to a specific Indian tribe. In their case, that would be the Quapaws (Arkansas). There are only about 1,400 left and maybe they would feel honored, not degraded. ASU could also keep their imagery which should save them thousands of dollars.

Another way around it might be the way McMurry did it. Officially, they do not have a mascot/nickname but they still have their Indian statue on campus as well as symbols on their spirit gear from what I hear.

[0footballfan0]

When the mascot puts on a headdress, "war paint", "medicine wheel", or like items, or does a "war dance". Feathers, eagle feathers in particular, are very sacred. Those are all religious in nature to many Indian cultures.

My point was that an Indian as a mascot is not relegious. If, however, you are having your mascot do some kind of sacred dance than that is a different story all together and that action should be addressed, but not the mascot itself.

[Censored by Laurie]

Some suggestions for Arkansas St:

Edited June 19, 2007 by Censored by Laurie

[LongJim]

2. IT IS NOT EVENLY ENFORCED. Either they ban all of the uses of the mascot without exception or none of them. It is like saying if you drive a Dodge vehicle you can speed all you want without risk of penalty while everyone else risks a ticket. Forget the fact that Florida State has “good relations” with the Seminole tribe. Ban everyone or ban no one.

I agree with this. If you're going to enforce a ban--enforce it.

[Arkstfan]

First, North Dakota did not win their lawsuit, they won a preliminary injunction that does not translate into winning at trial it just means that they were able to show to a judge that the potential harm to the school was great while waiting posed no great burden on the NCAA. If you look at Tarkanian v. NCAA, I'd say the likelihood of success is very small.

An Illinois lawsuit to prevent change has already been booted.

Second I'm fine with changing because there are Indians who are offended, its not such an important issue that its worth a big fight, heck UNT can't even make up its mind about a name.

What I find fascinating and wish some historians or sociologists would research is the whole trend toward Indian names. From what little I've found the whole thing is really interesting. Between 1912 and roughly 1935 a host of teams in the pros and colleges adopted Indians or Indian related names (Boston in NL became Braves in 1912, Cleveland Spiders changed about three years later and so on). The reason it seems so strange is that the Indian wars ended in 1890. Then 22 years later these names are being adopted. I can't imagine teams in 1975 changing to North Koreans or in 1999 switching to Viet Cong. Yet that's pretty much what happened. My theory for what it is worth is that the period 1900 to 1935 was an era of dramatic change. The motion picture camera was invented in 1895 and started a new entertainment form. 1903 the first production automobile rolled out of a factory with the Wright brothers making the first flight later that year, commercial radio appeared in 1920. My theory is that in a period of such upheaval there was nostalgia for the simpler way of life and the Indian was the model and therefore seen as a positive.

The argument is made that it is intended to mock or denigrate and it is often said, "Well what if teams were called _______ (insert racist slur)?"

I think the point regarding intention is made by the fact there aren't teams called whatever racist slur you can think of. The absence speaks for itself. If the intent were to mock or make fun of a minority group there would be teams using those other names. The intent of those making those changes I believe was noble, they saw the attributes of Indians being attributes worthy of being held up and being associated with. It is rather simple-minded to to assign a hate motive to such an action. It has offended some, but I don't think I can be convinced it was the intent as some claim.

In the end its just not a fight worth fighting.

[PlummMeanGreen]

No. This move by the NCAA came about because a small group of Natives threatened a lawsuit.

Wait till many of those U.S citizens who are Moslems & whose sentiments naturally favor their own start getting in on all this "Made in America" P.C. business. Of course, Harry, Nancy and the Amercian Civil Liberties Union crowd up in Washington D.C. will take care of all of them (until one of their elect's dirty A-Bombs kills about a million of our U.S. citizens). Sorry, Harry, I know I'm not supposed to go there.

BACK TO TOPIC................Wonder if the good ol' NCAA with all their gold & riches will help all these schools who now have to make changes pay for all their (now) needed new brandings, stationary, scoreboard logos, center-of-football field logo markings, etc, etc, etc,; that is, for all those schools who will now have to spend a Fort Knox-style fortune to make all these changes?

Edited June 19, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[Censored by Laurie]

I love the redneck mentality to make sure and incorporate a jab at a religion that you don't understand anytime there is some sort of cultural discussion...I guess if the rest of the mega-church, Pat Robertson congregation is doing it too, than it must be right. Ignorance is bliss.

[Mean Green 93-98]

I love the redneck mentality to make sure and incorporate a jab at a religion that you don't understand anytime there is some sort of cultural discussion...I guess if the rest of the mega-church, Pat Robertson congregation is doing it too, than it must be right. Ignorance is bliss.

What is ignorant is to think that the Islamist views are worthy of defense. "Slay the infidels wherever ye find them" (Surah 9:5). While there are some professing Islam who reject their book (just as most who profess Christianity reject the Book), there are a whole bunch of folks out there who want to see you dead because you live in a country that does not impose Sharia law upon its people.

[Quoner]

What is ignorant is to think that the Islamist views are worthy of defense. "Slay the infidels wherever ye find them" (Surah 9:5). While there are some professing Islam who reject their book (just as most who profess Christianity reject the Book), there are a whole bunch of folks out there who want to see you dead because you live in a country that does not impose Sharia law upon its people.

In his defense, he was talking about Moslems, which I doubt any of you are too familiar with.

Ignorant bastards.

[Mean Green 93-98]

In his defense, he was talking about Moslems, which I doubt any of you are too familiar with.

= Those professing Islam, following Quran.

[Quoner]

= Those professing Islam, following Quran.

Yes it's a variation. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Moslem

Here we go again.... down the offseason rabbit hole.

[UNTLifer]

I love the redneck mentality to make sure and incorporate a jab at a religion that you don't understand anytime there is some sort of cultural discussion...I guess if the rest of the mega-church, Pat Robertson congregation is doing it too, than it must be right. Ignorance is bliss.

I know this is boardering on thread lock down, but please enlighten me of your comments.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---It is political correctness completely out of control. Never is a native American name for a college used as a insult of them although a few live mascots or cartoonish figures may carry it a bit far. Most names (mascots, place names, etc.) are very respectful of our native American heritage. I guess some of radical ones would just want us to forget they exist or ever existed and just erase their name from everything including their erasing their past. Then they would probably start complaining about that wanting more attention paid to them then and demand a Native American month or something else. I doubt that most native Americans want this but the radical folks of any group [ native Americans, politicians, religious extremists, etc. ] you just can't satisfy. They will always find something to complain about and stir up trouble..

--- All of us need to just not emphasize what group we are a member of and accept the past as past and only complain about what is truly insulting or disrespectful. It seems like some groups have special days almost every month.... Live in the present, most of the injustices of the past were not done by the people who are alive today or even their children or grand-children.

--The most insulting of all of those in existance now is the term "REDSKINS" which exists in our nation's capital.... of all places. People would scream to high heaven if the term blackskins, brownskins, or whiteskins were used. That is the one they should complain about... not Indians which McMurry and ASU used. Perhaps they should just change it to Indians which was never meant to insult anyone.

Edited June 19, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[PlummMeanGreen]

I love the redneck mentality to make sure and incorporate a jab at a religion that you don't understand anytime there is some sort of cultural discussion...I guess if the rest of the mega-church, Pat Robertson congregation is doing it too, than it must be right. Ignorance is bliss.

I really have no idea what a redneck is. Can someone please explain it to me? I do know that most from the Northeastearn seaboard and many from the Western part of the USA think anyone south of the Mason Dixon that doesn't quite enunciate as they do seems to fit one of their criteria for this term redneck. But someone, please, what the hell does the term redneck mean. I know some sumbich's out there who I really think are true, unadulterated blue-necks, though. So what's a blue-neck, right?

But redneck you say? I cut myself shaving my neck this AM and it did turn a bit red I will confess.

The only thing worse than a biggot is one who replaces what they perceive as someone being bigotted with their own form of biggotry.

PS: Sorry, Harry, I didn't mean to do continue in any of this, but it does relieve some semblance of the stress of a post-9/11 America. I think we can all agree that we live in a different country than the one we lived in before someone decided to fly 2 of our own planes into the WTC and in the name of Allah to boot. I vote we hunt them all down till there are none of them left and there are no longer any virgins left for them to enjoy in their Mohommed-invented fantasy heaven. More Redneck'ism with such a statement?

BECAUSE I'M AN AMERICAN---I CAN SAY THIS>>>> Would Nancy Pe-"loser" and Harry "We've Lost The War In Iraq" Weenie (Senate Majority Leader) suggest to the many of us Americans who feel this way toward a religion that promotes killing; nevertheless, would they call us "narrow-minded" rednecks, too? Do those 2 "politicians" need a dirty A-bomb mushroom cloud hanging over each of their home city's (and their constituencies) till they cease what seems to be their own continuous denial of what is really going on in in the Middle East and (subsequently) our world today?

A world where many radical Moslems (with even moral support from non-radical Moslems based out of some of our American city's mosque) want our American parents, our American kids, our American grandchildren and all our American friends dead? Do we need to have the same exact personal tragedies that many family members of the 9/11 tragedy all experienced? Would Nancy and Harry then become believers if Moslem car bomb created a tragedy for any of their respective families? Or are they going to polticize all this and gamble our national security based on things that will get their own personal agenda thru or even many of their party members some votes come next national election?

This is America and redneck or not, we can still express our opinions (in spite of how the ACLU would prefer we really express those opinions; you know, sorta' how they express their own)?

End of sermon..................turn to your hymnals to page ______

Edited June 20, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[meangreendork]

1. The NCAA's only gonna pull this crap on schools that don't rake in the money for them. This policy, as previously stated, is inconsistently enforced, and unfairly enforced. Sadly, it's the NCAA doing two things: covering their butts from the lawsuits, and ignoring the problem when the pursuit of the policy costs them more money. It's crap.

2. This whole radical muslim/redneck talk is totally off topic. It's probably gonna get this thread, and to be honest, there's no easy answer. Coming after all Muslims is a mistake and will get a lot of innocent people hurt. Ignoring the problem is also going to get a lot of people hurt. I would doubt that any of us here (unless you're a military security analyst) are entirely qualified for this. There's a lot of culture to go into and two entire denominations of the Muslim religion to study. Many of us don't know every working of our own religions much less other religions, so it's best to just not mess with it, at least, not here.

[Censored by Laurie]

I've responded to this line of discussion off the thread and apologized for the redneck statement seeing as how it is quite hypocritcal of me. I would love for this thread to get back on topic...but I have a feeling its hopelessly lost. If you would like to continue the Muslim line of questioning...feel free to send me a message...its more interesting a discussion for me than when will our new uniforms come out...and living up north now too many people agree some of my political leanings and I miss a good old fashion debate.