Middle Tennessee Should Make A Conference Switch

[johnnylightnin]

Total Operating $10,996,389

Ours was:

Total Operating $13,749,794

According to my link, UNT total revenue was: $10,643,248 in 04/05...Tech's was: $11,009,487

Regardless...the point in posting was to show that in 04/05, there were three CUSA schools (one being a new member) that had budgets less than 20 million.

[MeanGreen61]

According to my link, UNT total revenue was: $10,643,248 in 04/05...Tech's was: $11,009,487

Regardless...the point in posting was to show that in 04/05, there were three CUSA schools (one being a new member) that had budgets less than 20 million.

You're really comparing peanuts to peanut butter (crunch or smooth) when looking at these figures. There is NO standing reporting procedure for schools, so any type of real comparison is moot. Income is calculated & reported differently, scholarships may or may not be charged to expenses, etc. Some schools receive state support that they count as income, others do not. etc, etc, etc,etc Until a standard report procedure is established, it's impossible to really make true comparisons.

Edited June 6, 2007 by MeanGreen61

[MeanGreen61]

Facts about the CUSA expansion that cannot be refuted. 1. UNT and Tech were both visited and considered but not selected. 2. UTEP was selected. 3. If another opening occurs, there will be another, new selection process that will consider applicants/candidates.

[johnnylightnin]

Facts about the CUSA expansion that cannot be refuted. 1. UNT and Tech were both visited and considered but not selected. 2. UTEP was selected. 3. If another opening occurs, there will be another, new selection process that will consider applicants/candidates.

I agree.

[PlummMeanGreen]

One UNT alum told me it wouldn't surprise him to see La Tech & our dear ol' alma mater miss the next CUSA expansion but with that league choosing a school to fit more in its central Deep South footprint/area with a school like Troy U.

Thus even more reason for us not to put all our marbles and future with CUSA, we may only get disappointed (again). Like the old SWC, they already have all the Texas schools they want is how I truly believe they now think; and of course, most of them voted against us when Hayden Fry tried to get us in the SWC (so lets just use past history to tell us if they will not vote for UNT for 2 different league scenarios, ie, the SWC and CUSA), just what kind of magic is really going to change their minds about us in yet a 3'rd vote)?

So even more the reason I feel UNT must do what it takes to rise above each & every Lone Star-based CUSA school's athletic programs across the board and that being a prime reason for us to build our stadium in its initial phase to a minimum of 40,000 seats. (Why would we ever want to turn down additional gate receipts by our not being able to seat an additional 10,000 UT, TAMU, OU, OSU, Nebraska, etc, etc, etc, fans because we were in a stadium that seated just a bit above 30,000)?

What we also don't need to hear at UNT if we did build our new stadium that size would be schools like UT, TAMU, Texas Tech, OU, OSU, Nebraska, etc, etc, etc, saying to our athletic officials:

"Well, we'll play you at the Dallas Cowboys new stadium, but 31,000 is still really too small for us to come to Denton to tee it up with you folks; after all, we can play SMU and they have a thousand more seats than you all and, of course, we can still play TCU in their 40K plus capacity Amon Carter Stadium"

PS: The main thing (as I recall from my growing up in Greater Houston) that got the UH Cougars voted into the old SWC back in the day was that their program had outgrown and was out-performing most all of the rest of the members of the Southwest Conference (and was even recruiting head to head against UT); thus one theory that we will have to do the same versus all the Texas-based CUSA schools to really make any headway in our state and to get attention outside Texas, but by the time we would do that against all our fellow Texas D1-A schools who are members of CUSA, we might just have a better conference opportunity to consider.

Edited June 7, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[GreenEddieNT]

This is the way I heard it went down.

The voting came down to these options:

1)Add UTEP

2)Add nobody

I recall reading that SMU was in favor of adding Tech but I also recall reading that Memphis was adamant about adding UTEP or adding nobody and at that time, and probably still, Memphis has more clout than SMU. As for how the other 9 CUSA schools felt with regard to adding UTEP, UNT, Tech, or nobody I really don't know because their people were less vocal than those of SMU and Memphis. However, if indeed there was any truth to the rumor that CUSA was prepared to stay at 11 if they couldn't get UTEP then one has to look at UTEP's qualifications as the minimum "informal" requirements for admission, especially considering that Memphis favored a school like UTEP and Memphis seems to call the shots in CUSA.

UTEP Men's Basketball Tradition

NCAA men's basketball tournament appearances:1963(Lost to Texas 47-65), 1964(Defeated Texas A&M 68-62 & Creighton 63-52, lost to Kansas State 60-64), 1966(Defeated Oklahoma City 89-74, Cincinnati 78-76, Kansas 81-80, Utah 85-78, & Kentucky 72-65), 1967(Defeated Seattle 62-54 & Wyoming 69-67, lost to Pacific 63-72), 1970(Lost to Utah State 81-91), 1975(Lost to Indiana 53-78), 1984(Lost to UNLV 60-73), 1985(Defeated Tulsa 79-75, lost to North Carolina State 73-86), 1986(Lost to Bradley 65-83), 1987(Defeated Arizona 98-91, lost to Iowa 82-84), 1988(Lost to Seton Hall 64-80), 1989(Defeated LSU 85-74, lost to Indiana 69-92), 1990(Lost to Minnesota 61-64), 1992(Defeated Evansville 55-50 & Kansas 66-60, lost to Cincinnati 67-69), 2004(Lost to Maryland 83-86), 2005(Lost to Utah 54-60)

Men's basketball post-season NIT appearances:1965(Lost to Manhattan 53-71), 1972(Lost to Niagara 57-76), 1980(Defeated Wichita State 58-56, lost to Michigan 65-74), 1981(Defeated San Jose State 57-53, lost to Tulsa 67-72), 1983(Lost to Fresno State 64-71), 1993(Defeated Houston 67-61, lost to Georgetown 44-71), 1995(Defeated Montana 90-60, lost to New Mexico State 89-92), 2001(Defeated McNeese State 84-74, lost to Memphis 65-90), 2006(Defeated Lipscomb 85-66, lost to Michigan 67-82)

UTEP Football Tradition

Football bowl appearances

Sun Bowl(El Paso, Texas):1937(Lost to Hardin-Simmons 6-34), 1949(Lost to West Virginia 12-21), 1950(Defeated Georgetown 33-20), 1954(Defeated Southern Miss 37-14), 1955(Defeated Florida State 47-20), 1957(Lost to George Washington 0-13), 1965(Defeated TCU 13-12), 1967(Defeated Ole' Miss 14-7)

Independence Bowl(Shreveport, Louisiana):1988(Lost to Southern Miss 18-38)

Humanitarian Bowl(Boise, Idaho):2000(Lost to Boise State 23-38)

Houston Bowl(Houston, Texas):2004(Lost to Colorado 28-33)

GMAC Bowl(Mobile, Alabama):2005(Lost to Toledo 13-45)

UTEP's Fan Base

Seasons when UTEP has averaged at least 30,000 fans per home game in football:1987(42,086), 1988(35,975), 1992(30,131), 1999(36,455), 2000(44,715), 2004(41,209), 2005(47,899), 2006(42,444)

Seasons when UTEP has averaged at least 8,000 fans per home game in men's basketball:1976-77(10,879), 1977-78(8,124), 1978-79(9,104), 1979-80(9,293), 1980-81(9,346), 1981-82(8,758), 1982-83(8,885), 1983-84(11,568), 1984-85(10,732) 1985-86(11,001), 1986-87(11,106), 1987-88(10,198), 1988-89(10,263), 1989-90(10,927), 1990-91(8,707), 1992-93(8,416), 1993-94(8,738), 1994-95(10,362), 1995-96(8,448), 1999-00(8,534), 2000-01(9,657), 2003-04(10,282), 2004-05(10,405), 2005-06(9,695), 2006-07(8,707)

Main UTEP Football & Basketball Facilities

Football: Sun Bowl Stadium(On campus), seating capacity 51,500

Basketball: Don Haskins Center(On campus), seating capacity 12,000

To be honest there is no school currently in the Sunbelt or in the eastern WAC(LA Tech, NMSU?) that even comes close to the total package so my guess is that if CUSA lost someone they would try to get TCU back and since I doubt TCU would swallow their pride and go back then CUSA would likely stay at 11, especially if Memphis is still around to have a say in it. So look for the Sun Belt to stay together and also pick up LA Tech(and possibly NMSU as well if the WAC suffers a big raid from the MWC) at some point. I just don't see how Tech can survive in the WAC another 5 years even under the best of circumnstances, let alone in the current reality they have with huge costs, no money, and a very small fan base.

[DeepGreen]

One UNT alum told me it wouldn't surprise him to see La Tech & our dear ol' alma mater miss the next CUSA expansion but with that league choosing a school to fit more in its central Deep South footprint/area with a school like Troy U.

UTEP(El Paso), UH(Houston), SMU(Dallas), Tulsa(Oklahoma), Rice(Houston), UCF(Florida). Deep South footbrpint? Plummer, you must be talking about the left footprint. The shame of it all is that if five of those schools were to make a bold step, and another 4-5 select schools, UNT, La Tech, ASU, New Mexico State, and one other, you would have an excellent, regional "Super Southwest Conference".

[johnnylightnin]

To be honest there is no school currently in the Sunbelt or in the eastern WAC(LA Tech, NMSU?) that even comes close to the total package so my guess is that if CUSA lost someone they would try to get TCU back and since I doubt TCU would swallow their pride and go back then CUSA would likely stay at 11, especially if Memphis is still around to have a say in it. So look for the Sun Belt to stay together and also pick up LA Tech(and possibly NMSU as well if the WAC suffers a big raid from the MWC) at some point. I just don't see how Tech can survive in the WAC another 5 years even under the best of circumnstances, let alone in the current reality they have with huge costs, no money, and a very small fan base.

CUSA was NOT prepared to stay at eleven. I don't doubt that some Memphis fans claimed that, but its simply not true. Why? CUSA wants to be a football conference. And, they want a championship game. To have a championship game, you MUST have 12 teams. CUSA wasn't gonna stay at 11. Troy would be an interesting pick-up, but I would imagine the eWAC would vote Tech in over Troy. Particularly if Tech improves facilities (which we are currently doing) and starts winning (which we are about to start doing).

As far as Tech in the WAC...don't worry about that. We've got the funds to do what needs to be done. Our big money guys have NO interest in going to the sunbelt and they have the means to insure that Tech is stable regardless of where they are. Travel costs suck, but bowl revenue, NCAA tourney revenue, and TV contracts are nice. And, they more than make up for our travel costs.

Edited June 7, 2007 by johnnylightnin

[MeanGreen61]

Troy would be an interesting pick-up, but I would imagine the eWAC would vote Tech in over Troy.

You assume a lot. The so called ewac members are junior members in the conference & probably have as much clout as Cream Puff Charlie. BB will have his consultant(s) scope out candidates and make recommendations. The Presidents have the vote but don't count your "we luv Tech" before they're cast. Your buddies left you behind and they have new buddies and new interest now.

Edited June 7, 2007 by MeanGreen61

[johnnylightnin]

You assume a lot. The so called ewac members are junior members in the conference & probably have as much clout as Cream Puff Charlie. BB will have his consultant(s) scope out candidates and make recommendations. The Presidents have the vote but don't count your "we luv Tech" before they're cast. Your buddies left you behind and they have new buddies and new interest now.

Here's an "article" that's related to our discussion.

http://www.latechreport.com/news.php?id=69

[PlummMeanGreen]

UTEP(El Paso), UH(Houston), SMU(Dallas), Tulsa(Oklahoma), Rice(Houston), UCF(Florida). Deep South footbrpint? Plummer, you must be talking about the left footprint. The shame of it all is that if five of those schools were to make a bold step, and another 4-5 select schools, UNT, La Tech, ASU, New Mexico State, and one other, you would have an excellent, regional "Super Southwest Conference".

Would be a nice conference alright, DG.

When I mentioned Troy U as a possible CUSA member I had schools like East Caroline, Memphis, etc, etc, etc, in mind because do those schools really want another Texas school in CUSA? And a school that still (even like during the era of Fry's attempts to get us in the SWC) we still (at this point) can only bring potential to the table because (lest we forget) we are a school that still only averaged 15K per home games during a 4 year bowl run; and based on those attendance figures alone is the prime reason I keep suggesting Rick V really needs to think in terms of dramatically tweaking his present ancillary staff.

This is why (IMHO) as we look to the future as a school located in the DFW Metroplex part of the Lone Star State, with our being (somewhat) alone on our own island in our state as far as being a non-Big12/CUSA school, that North Texas is just going to have to simply do much, much more than all the Texas-based CUSA schools for us to make our own footprint seen even here in our home state. IMO, we cannot do any of this by only having a new stadium that seats "just 500 more seats" than our present jewel of a stadium, ie, good ol' venerable Fouts Field.

Footprint? Many of you old-timers will remember what UH had to do to make their own footprint seen in the Lone Star State (and the SWC) back in the day which I detailed "in red" on page 7 of this thread. UNT will have to do something very similar with Texas-based CUSA schools IMO).

STADIUM WARS HAPPENING AT A DFW CITY NEAR YOU:

Like it or not, Jerry Jones has raised the "new stadium" stakes here in the North Texas/DFW Metroplex with his billion dollar stadium over in Arlington. We cannot begin to match such a stadium in Denton and neither can SMU or TCU at their own locales, but (IMO) a 40,000 seat stadium at the Mean Green Village (at least) gives us a chance to have some pretty significant, Big Name Schools and very important annual OOC games based in Denton that a 31,000 seat stadium just will never allow us to do longterm. Such games as those at that size of a stadium also are the kind that will help Todd Dodge's Mean Green teams toward those Top 25 ranking opportunities as well. We are not going to make Top 25 just playing who we've been playing lately in 30,500 seat Fouts Field (or a similar sized new stadium). Oh, sure, we can luck into a nice Name School (a la UCF) for a "one time" grand opening game to open our stadium, but on the other hand, what about the long term aspects of scheduling such schools in a stadium that would seat only 500 more than our present one?

Yada! Yada! Yada! A 40,000 seat stadium also gives us a better chance to raise our annual football attendance averages with a stadium that size because (projecting ahead) we will have played (at least one major Name School OOC game each Fall in Denton) with schools like UT, TAMU, Texas Tech, OU, OSU, Nebraska, etc, etc, etc)...................

...............and who on this board doesn't thinks Rick Villareal does not have the ability to schedule such schools in a 40,000 seat football venue at our Eagle Point Campus? I think we all would agree that that would be like shooting fish in a barrell for our AD.

Edited June 7, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[UNTLifer]

Here's an "article" that's related to our discussion.

http://www.latechreport.com/news.php?id=69

Sorry johnnylightnin', but the author lost all credibility with this statement:

Tech has a need for a regional competitive conference with universities we are known to equal, such as, SMU, Rice, Tulsa, UTEP and others.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

A 40,000 seat stadium also gives us a better chance to raise our annual football attendance averages with a stadium that size because (projecting ahead) we will have played (at least one major Name School OOC game each Fall in Denton) with schools like UT, TAMU, Texas Tech, OU, OSU, Nebraska, etc, etc, etc)...................

...............and who on this board doesn't thinks Rick Villareal does not have the ability to schedule such schools in a 40,000 seat football venue at our Eagle Point Campus? I think we all would agree that that would be like shooting fish in a barrell for our AD.

I see your point in having 40K seats. But lets think about it logically. We might, and I say might, have 1 home game a season that would be able to fill up a 40K stadium. Now lets think about the rest of the home games that no one comes to. Games that average around 8K-10K not including the 40K game. Honestly a 40K seat stadium with only 8K people there looks incredibly terrible. Having 32K empty seats is an embarrassment and nothing but a morale shock to our players, fans, alumni, and anyone else at the games who will take note.

I do not think people are going to start coming to our games until the quality of the opponent is better, and I'm not just talking about 1 quality home game, I'm talking about consistent quality to build consistent attendance.

I'm for a new stadium, but I'm for one that we can consistently fill up. I don't think it's logical to build a larger stadium for the 1 home game a season we may have.

[Stan R]

I see your point in having 40K seats. But lets think about it logically. We might, and I say might, have 1 home game a season that would be able to fill up a 40K stadium. Now lets think about the rest of the home games that no one comes to. Games that average around 8K-10K not including the 40K game. Honestly a 40K seat stadium with only 8K people there looks incredibly terrible. Having 32K empty seats is an embarrassment and nothing but a morale shock to our players, fans, alumni, and anyone else at the games who will take note.

I do not think people are going to start coming to our games until the quality of the opponent is better, and I'm not just talking about 1 quality home game, I'm talking about consistent quality to build consistent attendance.

I'm for a new stadium, but I'm for one that we can consistently fill up. I don't think it's logical to build a larger stadium for the 1 home game a season we may have.

Yes, poops-a-lot is right. Once we start having near-sellouts at 31K, we could expand again. Until then, 31K is fine.

[MeanGreen61]

Here's an "article" that's related to our discussion.

http://www.latechreport.com/news.php?id=69

That is just a TECH writers opinion.

[johnnylightnin]

That is just a TECH writers opinion.

Sure, some of it is his opinion. The parts about maintaining our relationship with SMU, Rice, UTEP, and Tulsa is not opinion. And, the fact that we are obviously persuing CUSA isn't opinion either.

[MeanGreen61]

The parts about maintaining our relationship with SMU, Rice, UTEP, and Tulsa is not opinion.

Good for you.

[stebo]

Well, it sounds like you are having a one way relationship. Since they left - yo uhave not scheduled them in either football or men's basketball. On the other hand - we have scheduled every single school except UTEP in both football and men's basketball. Sounds like Tech wants a lot to do with those schools and they really don't see the benefit of playing a home and home with a team in Ruston.

[Mean Green 93-98]

I see your point in having 40K seats. But lets think about it logically. We might, and I say might, have 1 home game a season that would be able to fill up a 40K stadium. Now lets think about the rest of the home games that no one comes to. Games that average around 8K-10K not including the 40K game. Honestly a 40K seat stadium with only 8K people there looks incredibly terrible. Having 32K empty seats is an embarrassment and nothing but a morale shock to our players, fans, alumni, and anyone else at the games who will take note.

I do not think people are going to start coming to our games until the quality of the opponent is better, and I'm not just talking about 1 quality home game, I'm talking about consistent quality to build consistent attendance.

I'm for a new stadium, but I'm for one that we can consistently fill up. I don't think it's logical to build a larger stadium for the 1 home game a season we may have.

I know we have had too many stadium threads as it is, and it is strange that this thread should ultimately lead to stadium talk, but . . . I wonder how often the stars will align just right to get the go-ahead from all involved to do stadium construction. How many years has it been known that something needs to be done about the situation with Fouts, and nothing has? If we were to be able to get approval to build a 40+k seat stadium, but chose instead to build a 31k stadium, would we be certain to get the approval for expanding when the time came? The question that would come up time and again would be, "Did not anyone foresee this happening when we built the stadium the first time?" Obviously a full stadium is a better experience for all involved, whether fans or players, but if we truly think the time will come when we need a larger stadium, why not build it right the first time?

[stebo]

If we are consistently filling a 31K seat stadium then we will have ZERO problems expanding or funding that expansion. Zero. The main thing is to build the stadium so that it is easy to expand when that is needed. The AD is not an idiot and that will be the focus of the design so that we are never stuck with another Fouts.

Can we please stop talking about the stadium and continue to make fun of La Tech? They are such an easy target and it is so much fun.

[UNTLifer]

Can we please stop talking about the stadium and continue to make fun of La Tech? They are such an easy target and it is so much fun.

And, I might add, a new off season topic that is much more enjoyable.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I see your point in having 40K seats. But lets think about it logically. We might, and I say might, have 1 home game a season that would be able to fill up a 40K stadium. Now lets think about the rest of the home games that no one comes to. Games that average around 8K-10K not including the 40K game. Honestly a 40K seat stadium with only 8K people there looks incredibly terrible. Having 32K empty seats is an embarrassment and nothing but a morale shock to our players, fans, alumni, and anyone else at the games who will take note.

I do not think people are going to start coming to our games until the quality of the opponent is better, and I'm not just talking about 1 quality home game, I'm talking about consistent quality to build consistent attendance.

I'm for a new stadium, but I'm for one that we can consistently fill up. I don't think it's logical to build a larger stadium for the 1 home game a season we may have.

Of course, DD (I just can't get myself to spell out your name as I just had a late lunch); anyway, uh, DD , we have to assume (and yes, I know about that word "assume" too); yet we just have to assume that with almost 5-6 million DFW'ers living within 1 hour (+/-) of where our new stadium will be located, that Mean Green/Dodgeball Style football will grow right along with our "forecasted" & continued enrollment growth as well as all the continued growth expected in Denton & Denton County.

Sorry, stebo, I do apologize, and yes, I know, I do have my continued SOTB problem ("Stadium on the Brain"); but we can all only hope that we will have the kind of visionaries on our campus who will know how large it (it? what else, new stadium) really needs to be and why it needs to be as large from the git-go since at UNT........

..........we already know we are going to have to do much, much more than what all the present Texas-based CUSA schools are doing for us to advance past them so that UNT can make significant inroads in our own state of Texas and then (ultimately) into the Top 25 national spotlight. We cannot just merely equal what that grouping of Texas-based CUSA schools are doing and expect much to happen because how many of them are knocking on the Top 25 door's rankings (such as Boise State has been doing for years)?

.............IMHO, we just cannot afford to build a new stadium that seats only 500 more than our present stadium and expect much more than what we've all mostly experienced the last 25 years with Mean Green football (which the sum total of those years IMHO just does not add up to much as far as the higher NCAA 1-A profile our school deserves).

FWIW, what has a stadium the size of Fouts Field done for us lately as far as at a NCAA D1-A higher profile is concerned and its size creating for us an inability to schedule Top 40 NCAA D1-A schools in Denton as well?

I realize this has turned into a "gig" La Tech thread which was not even the theme of this threads original title, but (FWIW) I'd trade in a New York minute all the significant OOC wins the Bulldogs have had the last 25 years compared to the ones we've had at UNT in that same period of time. (After all and as I recollect, some of La Tech's Big OOC Wins includes 2 over the Crimson Tide of the University of Alabama among several other similar schools); also, one very impressive La Tech national TV win a couple years ago over a high ranked Fresno State team). Someone name all of ours since we had a U of Tennessee win, a near win over UT and a bowl win over non-ranked Cincinatti? Sorry, but the next 25 years of Mean Green football must be more successful than that (and I believe it will only if our present UNT leaders play their cards right).

OK all...............proceed with the procedure of the proceedings!

PS: And stebo, hope all is going well for you & your career in the tech school recruiting business. My 25 years in it did have some high points, and who knows, I might even step back in that sector of education before its all over with.

Edited June 8, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[stebo]

PS: And stebo, hope all is going well for you & your career in the tech school recruiting business. My 25 years in it did have some high points, and who knows, I might even step back in that sector of education before its all over with.

.

Well, I don't work for a tech school... I work for the University of Phoenix, a fully (regionally and nationally) accredited 4 year institution. We are the largest private school in the country with over 180 campus' and 360,000 students. We have now launched an online junior college that is expanding faster than our 3 DFW ground campus' and our growth is through the roof.... but... thanks for the encouragement. I started with the school about a year and a half ago and at the time we had 30 counselors - now we have 8 teams and 90 counselors. The team that I lead has 10 members on it. I can't imagine trying to compete with UOP in the recruiting sector these days, we pretty much get the cream of the crop when it comes to the adult student population. My hat is off to you for recruiting the tech student, that is a tough game and you must have been really freaking good at it to have stuck it out for so long. My job is easy, our students call us and ask us how to get in school rather then the other way around, lol.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Well, I don't work for a tech school... I work for the University of Phoenix, a fully (regionally and nationally) accredited 4 year institution. We are the largest private school in the country with over 180 campus' and 360,000 students. We have now launched an online junior college that is expanding faster than our 3 DFW ground campus' and our growth is through the roof.... but... thanks for the encouragement. I started with the school about a year and a half ago and at the time we had 30 counselors - now we have 8 teams and 90 counselors. The team that I lead has 10 members on it. I can't imagine trying to compete with UOP in the recruiting sector these days, we pretty much get the cream of the crop when it comes to the adult student population. My hat is off to you for recruiting the tech student, that is a tough game and you must have been really freaking good at it to have stuck it out for so long. My job is easy, our students call us and ask us how to get in school rather then the other way around, lol.

My bad...

Have a British lady friend who went to work for UP in Las Vegas, stebo. Her name is Deborah Malone. I recently stayed at the Dallas Westin Hotel for a 2 day seminar and saw your Dallas campus. Very impressive...

Later, stebo...&

GMG!

[UNTflyer]