Middle Tennessee Should Make A Conference Switch

UNTflyer · May 30, 2007

I don't think OOC wins count. What's your point?

What's YOUR point? That the MUTS are far more competitive in women's golf and men's track? Yeah, that'll woo the C-USA officials.

One OOC football win against Tennessee Tech, two split Sun Belt titles in 6 years, and suddenly you guys think you're C-USA material? LOL!

I'm going to thouroughly enjoy watching you guys get schooled in DodgeBall.

Oct. 27th.

stebo · May 30, 2007

God I hate these discussions. Neither school is going anywhere. One thing that we can learn from the numbskulls at La Tech is that CUSA looks at three things when they look for members. We were the runner up in the last allignment and our AD specifically asked "what kept us out?" - the answer - #1 is BUDGET. Since that time, North Texas has pushed our budget up considerably. When we left the Big West, we were funding our entire program on about $7 million a year. We have doubled our effort and our budget is now $13.7 million... which is about $6.3 million TOO LOW for CUSA (according to their commissioner) - they have a conference bylaw that states members must have a $20 million dollar athletic budget. We are getting there. La Tech has not done a THING to move themselves towards that goal. We have. MTSU has also increased their budget, but not as drastically as we have. Secondly, CUSA told us that they look at attendance in the MONEY SPORTS (the big 3). They don't really care how you get the people into the stadium or arena but that is what they look at. The MUTS did well with a good record but can you average 17K with a 2-10 record like we did? I think that you would need to build a dynasty first, like NT did - in order to get some die hard fans built up. Anyways, it is a push there. Finally, they look at Geography. In your case, I think that geography helps you. You are right in the middle of CUSA and the Eastern teams would love to have a school like MTSU over yet another Texas school. Again, I think it is a push.

I think that the biggest challenge for MTSU will be budget. That is the number 1 thing that CUSA looks at and you have a long ways to go to hit that $20 million dollar mark (by the way, so do we). The good news is that you could call the MAC and have a space within a month. CUSA hasn't even begun to look at MTSU, we have been looked at and just missed an invite. I think that the fact remains that the WAC OFFICIALLY invited NT to join and we turned them DOWN. CUSA won't feel bad about inviting us because we have already shown that we have set CUSA as our destination conference. We asked them exactly what we should do in order to move up next time around and we have followed up by listening to them and doing exactly what they asked of us. Our biggest competition will be La Tech but I don't see any possible way for Tech to DOUBLE (and then some) their athletic budget.

All this is moot because the Belt will continue to grow and thrive. FIU is breaking ground on a brand new stadium this week. Troy kicked the shit out of Rice in the New Orleans Bowl. The Belt is getting better. Just be patient.

May 30, 2007

Do OOC wins, regardless of sport, count towards the Cup standings? Just asking.

No they don't. All sports points are based on the number of teams competing and where you finish in the standings.

Let's say there are ten teams competing for the title in a sport. Points are awarded in inverse amount to your finish. The team that has the best conference record is awarded 10 points, the second best 9, third place finish 8, etc. The total number of wins has no bearing on the points awarded; it's only the conference wins that determine your finish.

In football, the team that finishes first is awarded 8 points. If there is a tie for first then the first two places are added together (15) and divided by two. The results would be that the two first place teams are awarded 7.5 points each. Head to head competition only affects the bowl selection.

If conference sports competition were ONLY about football and basketball then we should get rid of the other sports and just play those that people are most interested in. But to qualify as (what used to be) 1-A, you have to have a minimum of 14? sports, something like 8 or 9 which must be women's. No, the Bubas Cup requires that you be good in all sports, not just the few of your choosing.

On the other hand, football still drives the bus. It was only three years ago that Middle averaged a little over 11,000! The year before this past season MTSU didn't qualify for the 15,000 minimum average. Survival was a bigger question than dominance. To their credit they got a new coach, renewed some enthusiasm, played a home game at a neutral site (Nashville) which drew well and jumped up their average to 22,000. That is commendable but it hardly qualifies for CUSA to kick UTEP out so that they can be accepted.

As NT80 said we don't condemn the MUTS for aspiring to better things, the article just implies haughtiness and you're too good for the Sun Belt when this was your first year to meet the attendance qualifications in some time.

GrandGreen · May 30, 2007

All this discussion about CUSA. CUSA is far from the Big Twelve and in my mind only a step ahead of the Belt. I doubt seriously that the budget is a number set in stone because no-one accounts for revenue or expenses the same way. For example, what is the cost of a scholarship used in SMU's budget compared to NT; about 6 times the expense because of their much higher tuition despite the actual costs being almost identical . Wonder why the Louisiana schools ala Louisiana Tech are much lower than their counterparts in expenditures ? Unless they have changed in the last few years, the cost of athletes tuition is not even charged to the athletic department.

There is not a team in the Belt that does not expire to better things. The Muts are no different but frankly few fans care one bit about Bubas Cup standings. As I stated in a previous post the key to winning an all sports trophy is having a good track program with track/cross country accounting for a third of the points awarded. If NT really cared about this competition they would upgrade in track, a sport I do believe that NT is happy with mediocrity in. They could also follow the MUTs lead and recruit more foreign athletes to booster their non-revenue sports if winning is that important.

Edited May 30, 2007 by GrandGreen

greenminer · May 30, 2007

No they don't. All sports points are based on the number of teams competing and where you finish in the standings.

Thank you

I don't think OOC wins count. What's your point?

I didn't mean to really make one. I just wanted more insight into how the cup standings are determined. InTheZone got all lovey-dovey with this team...

Now I see you highlighted a few of North Texas's strong points. Now it's my turn. Since joining this league, Middle Tennessee has won 2 Sun Belt co-titles in football, 4 consecutive league tournament titles in women's basketball in addition to 1st Round wins to nationally-ranked teams in 2 of those years. Middle Tennessee has been to a super regional in baseball and has received bids to the NCAA tournament 3 times. Volleyball won the league title this year and won a 1st-Round game against host Louisville in the NCAA tournament. Women's Soccer finished 2nd in the league behind only Denver this past season. Men's Outdoor Track and Field won it's 2nd straight Sun Belt title. Middle Tennessee Men's Doubles Tennis has been to the Final Four the past 2 years in a row and in fact won the national title just yesterday over the defending national champions from Illinois!

...but all those post-tourney wins and OOC upsets don't really matter in regards to the Cup. So I suppose that was my point. MTSU has picked up a lot of loose change, but I'll be happy to point out that both their football co-championship seasons included losses to the other co-champ, and they have yet to win a men's bball championship. The CUSA Commish is probably looking at revenue gained and school budgets more than anything else. MT has yet to win an outright championship in either of the two major revenue sports, doesn't mave much to brag about in attendance (something we are working on too), and hasn't improved their budget in the same way NT has. I wonder how all the Sun Belt schools budgets compare in growth from the last 5 years.

I remember another thread talking about how much MT's budget is funded by the community. That's fantastic for consistency, but I'd be curious to know if it creates problems/constraints for possible budget growth.

Edited May 30, 2007 by greenminer

Green Lantern · May 30, 2007

Just a question. Why do we get so up in arms when we hear about a conference mate of ours wanting to improve their current situation (i.e move to CUSA)? We always have these broad over reactions like it's a joke that they would even be considering trying to improve their porgram. It just seems a bit hypocritical of us to do this since we have about 100 off season threads every year regarding the same subject matter.

Not trying to start a flame war...I'm honestly curious at what makes NT fans so pissed that members of our conference have the same/similar ambitions as we do. To me, this is a good thing. I want MT, Troy, ULL, ASU, and especially NT to be making strides every year to improve their programs in hopes of moving up. If we are all doing this as a conference, we are bound to drastically improve our perception nationally in the coming years.

FWIW, I'm with Stebo on this whole thing. None of the Belt teams are going anywhere in the near future.

Mean Green 93-98 · May 30, 2007

Just a question. Why do we get so up in arms when we hear about a conference mate of ours wanting to improve their current situation (i.e move to CUSA)? We always have these broad over reactions like it's a joke that they would even be considering trying to improve their porgram. It just seems a bit hypocritical of us to do this since we have about 100 off season threads every year regarding the same subject matter.
Not trying to start a flame war...I'm honestly curious at what makes NT fans so pissed that members of our conference have the same/similar ambitions as we do. To me, this is a good thing. I want MT, Troy, ULL, ASU, and especially NT to be making strides every year to improve their programs in hopes of moving up. If we are all doing this as a conference, we are bound to drastically improve our perception nationally in the coming years.
FWIW, I'm with Stebo on this whole thing. None of the Belt teams are going anywhere in the near future.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Middle Tennessee's desire to move to C-USA. More power to 'em if they do. But condescending comments like

The reason why we are at the top of the league's all-sports standings is because we are competitive in every sport we have. I can't believe I have to explain this to you, again! I thought I already made that point abundantly clear, but apparently not all of you are getting the message. If North Texas would adequately fund each of it's sports, you could be competitive too.

and

You choose to be competitive (or try to be) in two or three major sports. That's fine. That's North Texas' perogative. As for Middle Tennessee we ARE competitive in every sport. We're not going to strip funding from one sport and give it to football just because less people care about that sport compared to football. You might do that at North Texas and I'm sure other 'Belt schools do that, but we will not.

do grate on the nerves somewhat.

Green Lantern · May 30, 2007

I don't think anybody has a problem with Middle Tennessee's desire to move to C-USA. More power to 'em if they do. But condescending comments like and do grate on the nerves somewhat.

True enough...but we are sure quick to flaunt our recent football and basketball successes in these arguments as well. My point being, all of us are trying to position our programs in the most favorable light. MT does have some very positive things going on right now (as does NT), I don't see any reason to get into a pissing match over who's program is truly better. In all honesty, we all (Sunbelt) need to improve dramatically in the coming years. None of our programs are currently at the TCU/Boisie level...which is the next level that we should be aspiring to.

TIgreen01 · May 30, 2007

Middle Tennessee Men's Doubles Tennis has been to the Final Four the past 2 years in a row and in fact won the national title just yesterday over the defending national champions from Illinois!

Congratulations....I really am developing a healthy dislike for the MUTS. A quick check of their tennis roster reveals they rely almost exclusively on foreign born ex-pros....just like Baylor does...and most of the NCAA in this sport. I think that's a crappy way to run a program....but that's just me.

greenminer · May 30, 2007

I don't think anybody has a problem with Middle Tennessee's desire to move to C-USA. More power to 'em if they do. But condescending comments like and do grate on the nerves somewhat.

I didn't think of them as condescending at all. He was merely pointing out that they choose to fund and be competitive in all sports, while we choose to hype up and win in the ones that count towards conference consideration.

Texas Stranger · May 31, 2007

They DO have more "co-championships" than we do, gotta give 'em that...

RaiderInTheZone · May 31, 2007

Congratulations....I really am developing a healthy dislike for the MUTS. A quick check of their tennis roster reveals they rely almost exclusively on foreign born ex-pros....just like Baylor does...and most of the NCAA in this sport. I think that's a crappy way to run a program....but that's just me.

We aren't doing anything illegal, and how do you know whether or not these guys are ex-pros? I've NEVER heard their names mentioned with Andre Agassi, Pete Samprass, or Rafael Nadal. These are pros that have been playing the game for much longer than Siljestrom and Born. I think maybe you're trying to make excuses for our ability to recruit international players (something UNT struggles to do) and our ability to produce a national title winner (something UNT has never accomplished in any sport at the Division 1 level). I don't see you harping on the other 'Belt schools like Troy and Florida International. You might take a look at some of the rosters they have in their sports. You'll see quite a few international players. There's nothing wrong, illegal, or immoral in offering a scholarship to kids from other countries. They have the same chances as any kid from the U.S. In fact, it's a lot harder for them to get into a U.S. college as they aren't as visible to the schools from overseas as kids from the U.S. are.

pollock · May 31, 2007

5-1.

meangreen2018 · May 31, 2007

No, because MT has had like 1 conference championship in a while but UNT should have made one when we were conference champions four years in in a row.

Well, not for football at least.

Edited May 31, 2007 by meangreen2018

letsgiveacheer · May 31, 2007

"I think maybe you're trying to make excuses for our ability to recruit international players (something UNT struggles to do) and our ability to produce a national title winner (something UNT has never accomplished in any sport at the Division 1 level"

One correction, North Texas won four straight national championships in golf.

untbowler · May 31, 2007

We aren't doing anything illegal, and how do you know whether or not these guys are ex-pros? I've NEVER heard their names mentioned with Andre Agassi, Pete Samprass, or Rafael Nadal. These are pros that have been playing the game for much longer than Siljestrom and Born. I think maybe you're trying to make excuses for our ability to recruit international players (something UNT struggles to do) and our ability to produce a national title winner (something UNT has never accomplished in any sport at the Division 1 level). I don't see you harping on the other 'Belt schools like Troy and Florida International. You might take a look at some of the rosters they have in their sports. You'll see quite a few international players. There's nothing wrong, illegal, or immoral in offering a scholarship to kids from other countries. They have the same chances as any kid from the U.S. In fact, it's a lot harder for them to get into a U.S. college as they aren't as visible to the schools from overseas as kids from the U.S. are.

Raider,

Yes you guys have International players but they are not former Pros especially on the ladies side, Sufi was your best player and Coach Ojeda got her for one year from Purdue. UNT can not speak much as one recruit next year has been playing Pro Tournaments this Spring and has one a few rounds.

As for most eggrecious Team using all Foreign Players look at USA, not one American on their team, UALR is same way. Denver has a good mix, UNT will be 50/50 or so next year. The worst offedners nationally ar UCLA, Baylor, Florida, Georgia who all have 22 y.o freshmen.

RaiderInTheZone · May 31, 2007

"I think maybe you're trying to make excuses for our ability to recruit international players (something UNT struggles to do) and our ability to produce a national title winner (something UNT has never accomplished in any sport at the Division 1 level"
One correction, North Texas won four straight national championships in golf.

At the Division 1 level?

TIgreen01 · May 31, 2007

We aren't doing anything illegal, and how do you know whether or not these guys are ex-pros? I've NEVER heard their names mentioned with Andre Agassi, Pete Samprass, or Rafael Nadal. These are pros that have been playing the game for much longer than Siljestrom and Born. I think maybe you're trying to make excuses for our ability to recruit international players (something UNT struggles to do) and our ability to produce a national title winner (something UNT has never accomplished in any sport at the Division 1 level). I don't see you harping on the other 'Belt schools like Troy and Florida International. You might take a look at some of the rosters they have in their sports. You'll see quite a few international players. There's nothing wrong, illegal, or immoral in offering a scholarship to kids from other countries. They have the same chances as any kid from the U.S. In fact, it's a lot harder for them to get into a U.S. college as they aren't as visible to the schools from overseas as kids from the U.S. are.

I was mostly just blowing smoke. Didn't really know about USA or UALR (until untbowler mentioned above)...or UNT starting down this same road. To me, it's just not in the 'spirit of the game' to have a team of ex-pros (and no...these guys aren't the same as Agassi, Nadal, Federer, etc--but the trend in the sport is to recruit players that have played professionally overseas). If none of MTSU's players are ex-pros, great....reading through their roster it's pretty hard to imagine, though.

MeanGreen61 · May 31, 2007

At the Division 1 level?

Yep.

FirefightnRick · May 31, 2007

Hey, NT has several national champoinships at the D 1 level not including the golf ones, and lately even. Our Drumline won the nationals back in the 70's and 80's, something like 11 or 12 times in a row. Plus, our cheerleading won it twice the past 8 years. And just like a national title in anything other than football, basketball, Track or baseball, did absolutely nothing for me, and probably little for anyone else outside the competitors in those events. But that's just my FOOTBALL fanatical bias speaking...

Carry On!

Rick

CMJ · May 31, 2007

At the Division 1 level?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division...f_Championships

Check out 1949-1952.

June 1, 2007

I'll just come right out and say this, what will always hold MIDDLE Tennessee State University back is the name. That is one school that NEEDS a rebranding campaign.

johnnylightnin · June 3, 2007

Tech has not done a THING to move themselves towards that goal.

You must not be keeping up. We've doubled our MBB and FB head-coaches salaries...we've done the same for their staff. Field-turf is installed and a jumbotron is on the way. Tech is hosting the 2008 WAC baseball tourny. FB is getting a new locker room and weight room. The basketball arena will receive a new floor, luxury boxes, new Men's locker room, new HOF...the list goes on and on.

So, basically, you're wrong.

PlummMeanGreen · June 3, 2007

You must not be keeping up. We've doubled our MBB and FB head-coaches salaries...we've done the same for their staff. Field-turf is installed and a jumbotron is on the way. Tech is hosting the 2008 WAC baseball tourny. FB is getting a new locker room and weight room. The basketball arena will receive a new floor, luxury boxes, new Men's locker room, new HOF...the list goes on and on.
So, basically, you're wrong.

Congrats on all your school's future new improvements. Just curious, but how much is all the above going to cost your alma mater?

And with the same candor and "to the point" that your fellow alum, ie, Dwayne of Minden would post such, what is the consensus among most of your alums with Tech's plans to remain in the WAC member? If no WAC membership in the future for Tech, what is your school's back-up plan?