Arkansas St. Gorillas Vs. North Texas Dragons ?

NT80 · May 15, 2007

From NT history: In 1922 campus elections students chose eagles over the lion and the dragon as the school mascot.

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ASU panel pondering nickname

Pressure to drop Indians increasing

By Kenneth Heard

JONESBORO — A 33-member committee likely will recommend dropping “Indians” as the name of Arkansas State University sports teams, effective in 2008, to comply with NCAA guidelines, committee Chairman Jim Pickens said Monday at the panel’s first meeting.

“Right now, it’s a no-brainer,” Pickens said, referring to the pending change of ASU’s team name.

The Mascot Review Committee - comprising ASU faculty and staff, along with Jonesboro civic leaders - is expected to make its recommendation next month to ASU Chancellor Robert Potts. The chancellor will forward the proposal to the ASU board of trustees. If the board approves scrapping the Indians name and associated logos, the university will name another committee to come up with a new name and mascot, Pickens said.

No alternative ideas surfaced at Monday’s meeting.

ASU sports teams have competed as the Indians since 1931. On Aug. 5, 2005, the NCAA deemed the mascot “hostile and abusive,” along with the team names of 17 other universities and colleges that made reference to American Indians.

Louisiana-Monroe, a Sun Belt Conference opponent of ASU, changed its name from Indians to Warhawks last year. Southeast Missouri State, an Ohio Valley Conference school based in Cape Girardeau, Mo., went from Indians to Redhawks.

Pickens said the ASU Mascot Review Committee has three options:

Ignore the NCAA rules and keep the name Indians, realizing it won’t be able to host any NCAA tournaments or events;

challenge the NCAA rules in court;

change the name.

“It seems to me if we stay the way we are, we’ll hurt our student athletes,” said Bill Keedy, a committee member and radio announcer for ASU football games. “If we’re at the end of the battle, then so be it.”

ASU first was known as the Aggies, beginning in 1911, and later went by the Gorillas and the Warriors. The school became the Indians in 1931.

The university adopted “Jumpin’ Joe,” a caricature of a loincloth-clad Indian holding a scalp and tomahawk, in 1937, but changed that image to a more politically correct “Runnin’ Joe” in 1994. Three years later, ASU incorporated an Indian headdress into its logo and did away with the cartoon image. In 2003, the university reintroduced its “A-State” logo from the mid-1970s and added “Red,” a dancing creature that features toothbrush-like bristles sprouting from its head.

In May 2003, ASU President Les Wyatt ignored a recommendation by the university’s Faculty Senate to do away with the Indian name and related mascot. The ASU board sided with Wyatt.

“The sentiment to continue using the Indian at ASU is widespread,” Wyatt said at the time.

At Monday’s meeting, most committee members indicated they favored a change, despite sentiment attached to the longstanding name.

“When we first heard of this, it infuriated us,” Potts said of the NCAA ruling. “We used [indians] as a sense of honor.”

Potts is no stranger to name changes. Before coming to ASU in October 2005, Potts was the chancellor of the North Dakota University System, which fields the “Fighting Sioux” in its athletic contests. North Dakota is challenging the NCAA decision and has spent $350,000 just in preparing its case, Potts said.

“They’ll spend $1 million or more just to fight it,” he said.

ASU Athletic Director Dean Lee said the Indian name already has had some adverse effects. The University of Wisconsin refused to schedule a football game with ASU this coming fall because of the Indian nickname, and some opponents don’t identify the ASU team by its mascot on public address systems at sporting venues, Lee said.

The final straw came with a decision by the University of Illinois to forego its battle with the NCAA, Pickens said. The University of Illinois will keep its name the “IIlini,” but it will do away with its mascot and Indian imagery.

“It was a wake-up call for us. Litigation is not a good option,” Potts said.

The committee will meet again in June and vote on making a name change, Pickens said.

This article was published Tuesday, May 15, 2007.

Green to the Bone · May 15, 2007

So ASU's looking for a mascot name?

Quick -- somebody file a trademark registration on Albino Squirrels!

DeepGreen · May 15, 2007

What a slap in the face to Native American Indians. In and of itself, labeling "Indians" as “hostile and abusive" by the NCAA is the crime being committed. What a bunch PC crap!

meangreendork · May 16, 2007

You know, when a school or something names their sports team or chooses a mascot, they do it because they want to almost draw and use some the admirable qualities of that mascot. It's why no one chooses the gerbil as a team or school mascot. Seriously, this PC crap makes us have to communicate and live by these exact standards where people will get up in arms because they're so thin-skinned. There are things worth being upset about, like true racism. The "Arkansas State Indians" title isn't one of them.

I'm also pretty sure most Native Americans probably don't care or don't mind. I'm betting it's someone who isn't even remotely Native American going crazy about this.

UNTFan23 · May 16, 2007

Well, for UL-M, them choosing the Warhawk for a mascot seems far more hostile then an Indian.

H-towngreen · May 16, 2007

Hmmm...so we could have been the North Texas Dragons...SLC Dragons....TD. Then we really could have just used their unis.

Cr1028 · May 16, 2007

I guess it doesn't apply to the major league Cleveland Indians or the Seminoles of Florida State. I guess it is just offensive for small schools without money to use the indian nickname.

trud1966 · May 16, 2007

They cant decide on a mascot? What SHADE of brown should the Gorilla be? Kelly Brown? Are they really the Gorillas, the Indians, or the Big Bad Browns? C'mon and join us in the Conference of "We cant decide on a mascot or nail down a color"

H-towngreen · May 16, 2007

I guess it doesn't apply to the major league Cleveland Indians or the Seminoles of Florida State. I guess it is just offensive for small schools without money to use the indian nickname.

The Seminoles Nation in Florida is actually behind FSU in keeping the Seminole name.

KingDL1 · May 16, 2007

I just want to know who the hell put the NCAA in charge of policing the PC world of colleges and their mascots. Shouldn't they just stick to sports and leave this kind of crap alone.

Green to the Bone · May 16, 2007

If this wasn't one of the crappy off-season threads predicted a few weeks ago, somebody missed it bigtime.

Ibleedgreen · May 16, 2007

trud1966...You hit the nail on the head!!

Daddy Dumpsalot · May 16, 2007

Seminoles of Florida State. I guess it is just offensive for small schools without money to use the indian nickname.

I remember a while back that they had the same issue but they 'fought' it and were able to keep their mascot. But yes it seems that the NCAA seems to enforce their more serious penalties on smaller schools that cannot fend for themselves as well and just give the larger BCS schools a little slap on the wrist along with a 'good game' slap on the butt.

Green Jackal · May 16, 2007

If I was ASU I would have told the NCAA that their use of the word "Indians" does not refer to Native Americans but it actually refers to people who live in India. After all, since we are outsourcing all of jobs to India we might as well outsource our team mascots while we are at it.

Isn't the NCAA a private organization? How can a private organization dictate how a state institution exercises their 1st Amendment rights? Where's the ACLU?

NT80 · May 16, 2007

If this wasn't one of the crappy off-season threads predicted a few weeks ago, somebody missed it bigtime.

You could just re-read all the old "meaningful" threads. Until football practice starts in August there is little "new" football news. :whip:

trud1966 · May 17, 2007

You know, when a school or something names their sports team or chooses a mascot, they do it because they want to almost draw and use some the admirable qualities of that mascot. It's why no one chooses the gerbil as a team or school mascot. Seriously, this PC crap makes us have to communicate and live by these exact standards where people will get up in arms because they're so thin-skinned. There are things worth being upset about, like true racism. The "Arkansas State Indians" title isn't one of them.
I'm also pretty sure most Native Americans probably don't care or don't mind. I'm betting it's someone who isn't even remotely Native American going crazy about this.

I agree. I know someone is trying to simply make the point that by calling themselves "Indians" as a athletic team mascot, then in some way, they're implying they're hostile and dangerous. HOW RETARDED! You choose a mascot because of qualities you admire and maybe there's a demographic reason, i.e. Indians that inhabited the Arkansas. It's not meant to be an insult, it's a tribute. Should we get rid of the Dallas "Cowboys"? Based on that thought process, are we saying that every man that lived in frontier Texas was an outlaw who wore six-shooters and killed people? Of course not.

eppy4life · May 17, 2007

...along with a 'good game' slap on the butt.

Yeah, we've never seen one of those from the NCAA.

UNTFan23 · May 17, 2007

Should we get rid of the Dallas "Cowboys"? Based on that thought process, are we saying that every man that lived in frontier Texas was an outlaw who wore six-shooters and killed people? Of course not.

You getting the two confused. Real Cowboys weren't outlaws, just the football players who play(-ed) for the Cowboys.

PlummMeanGreen · May 18, 2007

What a slap in the face to Native American Indians. In and of itself, labeling "Indians" as “hostile and abusive" by the NCAA is the crime being committed. What a bunch PC crap!

Amen, DG...

Personally, if I were an American Indian I'd be insulted even more by all this, too, (and haven't they had enough insults that began when the pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock)? Of course, there were some hostiles and hostilities among some Indain groups, but I suppose our presence created much of that, too.

EVEN MORE P.C. ON THE WAY? And with the ACLU-influenced crowd going to try their best to further their own political careers (at our citizen's expense) and with folks like Nancy Pelusi, Harry "We've Lost The War in Iraq" Weenie, Hillarious Clinton, etc, etc, etc,...........So should we all get ready for even more politcal correct-ness with a distinct left wing stinch? :ph34r:

Don't we only wish there had been some weapons of mass destruction (beside what was a major "human" WOMD in the person of Sadaam Hussein)?

And since the events of 9-11 (seemedly) still didn't make enough of an impression on too many of our fellow citizens along with some of our self-serving politcally elite crowd in Washington D.C. who think all we have to do with radical Moslems is just get them in a circle with all holding hands and we tell them (apologetically) how sorry we've been for our "getting of of hand" the last few years militarily (while they continue to laugh behind our backs and continue with their plans to chop all ours & our kids heads off first chance they get);;;;;;;;

;;;;;;;;;;;;you know, just like those former good American neighbors of ours who crashed a couple of American Airlne jets into the World Trade Center with some of the next wave of a similar group of home-grown radicals who will attempt even more of their skull-drudgery on your's and my neighbors (with not one of our American youth who will be exempt from any of their dastardly deeds, either).

Now back to this American Indian mascot thing.................. :rolleyes: :blink:

Edited May 18, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

Ibleedgreen · May 18, 2007

Plumm...This is a football board. Can we please leave politics out of it?

PlummMeanGreen · May 18, 2007

Plumm...This is a football board. Can we please leave politics out of it?

Sorry...

All the Indian mascot/PC talk kinda' got me started (and listening to Mark, Rush and Shaun on WBAP 820AM quite a bit got me going on the other subject). :rolleyes:

LongJim · May 18, 2007

You know, when a school or something names their sports team or chooses a mascot, they do it because they want to almost draw and use some the admirable qualities of that mascot.
I'm also pretty sure most Native Americans probably don't care or don't mind. I'm betting it's someone who isn't even remotely Native American going crazy about this.

Well, not quite. There's a pretty good FAQ on this subject at www.aistm.org, and here's an excerpt from their FAQ, which made me think a bit. Bolded text was added by me.

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What about the idea of "Indian" mascots being an honor or a sign of respect?

Many, if not most, of these types of ethnic icons were selected at a time when American Indian people were believed to be a "vanishing race" or portrayed by the popular media, such as pulp fiction novels and Hollywood movies, as unrelenting, sneaky, and especially warlike. It therefore seems that when many "Indian" sports team tokens were first chosen it wasn't because of "honorable" characteristics but because of qualities that would strike fear into and intimidate opponents on the socialized, ritual "battleground" of the sporting field, court, or arena. It really wasn't until these practice were questioned that the "honor and respect" argument began to be so frequently heard. The truth is that for many years being of American Indian heritage was considered a shameful thing to be denied or otherwise hidden.

Although there may be defensive psychological reasons why some people believe "Indian" mascots are a tribute or sign of respect, even if the intention behind these mascots, symbols, and nicknames is good and innocent it is clear a sizable number of American Indian people do not feel "honored" to be used in such ways. In fact, many of the largest organizations that represent American Indian people, individual tribes, and non-Native religious, educational, civil and human rights groups have requested for years that these outdated, ethnicity related practices be ended.

There are many good reasons for such requests.

Consider, for instance, how modern day Jewish people might feel if Germany named its soccer teams things like the "Munich Jews" or "Nuremberg Hebrews" as a "sign of respect" for the courage and tenacity of those of that faith who survived the genocide of World War II. While this comparison to similar practices that do occur in association with American Indian peoples is not perfect, neither is it totally inaccurate.

Similarly, items of great spiritual significance to many American Indian people, such as the feathers found in the headdress of the most common "Indian" icon, the "Plains style Indian chief," are trivialized when improperly used by non-Native people for secular purposes. Indeed, eagle feathers are protected by Federal law and can generally only be legally owned by American Indian people who need and use them for religious purposes.

Regardless, just knowing that many American Indian people do not feel "honored" by these practices, for whatever reason, should be enough cause for those using the mascots to rethink what they are doing. To paraphrase what the Superintendent of the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction said about this matter in 1994, "How can you be honoring someone when they are telling you that what you are doing is hurtful to them?" Thought of another way, perhaps it might help to consider whether "honor" can be forced on someone and still remain a genuine honor.

Instead of ignoring American Indian people and only hearing self-serving rationalizations, as has so often been the case, maybe it's time to make a sincere and meaningful gesture of true respect toward American Indian people by heeding what is being said about this and other issues of importance to the American Indian community. After all the historic tragedies and injustices American Indians have endured, and whose effects continue to be felt to this day, is that really too much to ask?

Another quote that made me think:

" How about this at a Notre Dame sporting event. Jesus, running around, leading cheers, cavorting with the cheerleaders, brandishing a huge cross with "Go Irish" written on it. Is that offensive? As a christian, I would say it was blasphemous and that it diminishes respect for Christianity. But, then again, maybe the native americans have more respect for their religeous symbols than we do. "

Edited May 18, 2007 by LongJim