From Buford Julep

[eulesseagle]

cmj-

I will have to agree that Brazil is steeped in Roman Catholosism because most Portugese kept to their roots.

However, India embrases Hinduism, Sieks, Islam and has very few Christians. I really do not think anyone with any knowledge of their country would consider India a Christian nation. The closest India ever came was under British rule. Heck far, people still go down to the Gangee's River to drop dead in it thinking it will propel them into the next life of reincarnation......hopefully to come back as a cow, bird or something better than what they were.

South Africa was Christian under the Bohr rule and ending with the rule of Mandela who was an athiest and a devout Marxist. Under Mandela unemployment, crime and poverty skyrocketed. Mandela even asked the previous "white government" to return and straighten out the government and intrastructure. Besides the Marxist philosophy there are probably a dozen or so other tribes/cultures/languages that are your usual African pagan varieties. I am sure that there are Christians in S.A. but not as much as before.

cmj, IMHO, you have no argument because your statements are flawed and inaccurate.

[CMJ]

I never said India was a Christian nation? I said they were a developing nation DESPITE this and proves your point false. Any country that has nuclear weapons at their dosposal is above Third World status. South Africa is also thrown into this developing country mix. SA has so many problems because of apartheid and the way the white minority ruled the country giving few rights to the black majority. They have one of the the largest gaps between rich and poor in the WORLD. This was a issue under White rule...and it continues. If anything it is improving. These issues will probably take years to rectify, but at least they are TRYING now.

(Their currency also traded well against the dollar in recent years)

If you couldn't tell I'm trying to say your Christianity = hunky dory Western soceity theory and Non=Christans = terrible society is a load of crap.

Once again...South America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Catholic_population.png

Probably the highest population of CHRISTIANS, whether Catholics of another demination, per country and most ALL of the countries are Third World level.

So EulessEagle you have no argument because your statements are flawed and inaccurate.

[Quoner]

[island eagle]

Well, since John Dewey founded the modern public school system upon the religion of secular humanism, and every child is required to attend, is that still a law establishing a religion?

The Bible classes being offered are largely electives in the larger schools, and they will be studied as literature. Considering the undeniable influence the Bible had upon early America, and subsequent corrupted versions of "Christianity" have had upon Western Civilization, it seems that there might be some sense in allowing children to learn the background behind history. And the teachers of such courses will probably be much more capable of getting away with mocking the Bible than trying to teach the children how to come to salvation in Christ. Again, why I am not particularly keen on these public school Bible classes.

As to the gentleman who referred to the few framers of the Constitution who did not openly profess Christianity (actually, Paine, Jefferson, and Adams were not signers to the Constitution), Ben Franklin is quoted as saying the following at the Constitutional Convention (his references to Scripture are noted in brackets):

Look at court decisions through the years that unanimously upheld the Divine Providence upon which our country depended, look at our nations symbols (the Liberty Bell, dollar bill, government buildings in Washington, D.C., et al.) that almost universally allude to God and/or the Bible in some way. The "establishment clause" was never intended to remove God or the Bible from the public eye or mind. It meant that we were not to have a "Church of America," unlike England.

And by the way, I couldn't give a rip one way or the other whether Cornerstone is admitted to UIL.

So, Paine...who has been called the father of the revolution....Jefferson and Adams, 2 of our first 3 Presidents....aren't considered founding fathers because they didn't sign the Constitution?

Actually the "establishment clause" meant different things to different people if you read the Federalist Papers, with some clearly meaning no state church as you note and some clearly wary of overt political involvement of churches in religion. After all, we did't develop Christian Democratic Parties like some countries did. It was Jefferson, who first used the term "separation of church and state" in both his letters and the treaty with the Barbary States. Our symbols, especially our early symbols are filled with pagan and Masonic themes also, including pyramids, mystic eyes, and other occult signs you can find on our currency and early buildings.

I agree that the Bible should be taught as a sginificant part of both our cultural and intellectual knowlegde. I think that Greek literature should too. Doesn't mean I advocate a return to the worship of Apollo.

The problem you quickly get when you talk about a generic Christian creed in our country is whose creed? Do you use the Jewish or Protestant version of the 10 Commandments? Do you use the Cathloic, Jewish or Protestant Bible? Or do you use the Jehovah's Witness version or the Book of Mormon? They all claim to be Christian. If you use tax dollars to promote one, then you are promoting ONE version of religion and you get right back to the situation the 18th Century rebelled so much against-state promoted religion.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Jesus loves a good football team. Seems the nastiest, dirtiest players we ever played against in preseason JV ball back in the day...were the "Christian School" Teams

---The school where wife teaches was playing a "Christian based school" from another town two years ago in football when the game was stopped in the first half (football) because of fighting and repeatedly kicking one of our players while he was on the ground. The following week the other school is given full responsibility for the fight and disqualified. I have never heard of such thing in a public school although likely it has happened. I think the other school missed a verse or two of the Bible... Even some of their parents went onto the field as well setting fine Christian examples. Some of these newer rabid Christian schools are completely nuts. My wife's school was started by a Episcopalian church about 40 years ago when Midland was growing extremely fast during an oil boom and public schools were too crowded.. Religion is approached with reason there. Another one they played had players who were constantly mouthing off obscene remarks so the players said. No fighting took place, but they seemed to trying to provoke one hoping to get some of our players thrown out it seemed.

Edited May 9, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Until the 7th grade, I went to a small rural school where they read the Bible to us everyday. Based upon the life paths of all my classmates (me included), it was counterproductive at best. My own belief is that when state and religion are mixed, both are corrupted. Nothing is more deadly to true religion that an official or state religion or a semblance there of. That's not to say that religious values should be excluded from politics, quite the contrary. But, religion for its own sake, is best kept from the temptations of temporal power.

---What is acceptable in a small rural school will not be in a large AAAA or AAAAA high-school. Pretty much the community is the same and not so diverse as in a larger school district and there will not be a lot of complaints and when there is they can be handled much easier. In general school has enough responsibities without taking on teaching religious beliefs... let Churches and homes do that. School can't do everything and shouldn't. Besides that some teachers are Catholics, Mormans, Church of Christ, Baptists, or Uniterians if not some non-Christian group. You may not agree with what the teacher believes anyway.

---Iran and other Middle-eastern countries mix religion and government. That is why they are so crazy and irrational and difficult to deal with. Europe once did and the 100-Years War erupted along with many others. Because of Europes problems, we separated the two pretty much and mentioned it in our Constitution. Neither should control the other.

Edited May 9, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Green to the Bone]

This began as a discussion of a potential disruption in high school athletics, which seemed pretty relevant to me.

Unless people can return this thread to an athletic topic, let's take this debate outside, sing "We Are the World," and be done with it.

[CMJ]

This began as a discussion of a potential disruption in high school athletics, which seemed pretty relevant to me.

Unless people can return this thread to an athletic topic, let's take this debate outside, sing "We Are the World," and be done with it.

Agreed. Sorry for my participation.

[eulesseagle]

CMJ-

Aparthied???

Aparthied is much a myth as global cooling was in the 1970's as global warming is today.

The "white" South African government was trying to keep waring african tribes from killing each other and in turn white cops killed black african rioters.

Naturally when the "white" SA government was defeated in elections over ONE million Huttus and Tsuttsi ended up killing each other because there were no "white" law enforcement to protect them.

Nobody calls what is happening in Northern Ireland aparthied and it is exactly the same situation. You have two waring tribes (catholics and protestants) trying to kill each other over "differences" with "white" law enforcement trying to keep the bloodshed down in riots.

________________

To claim that India is a bit better than a third world country because it has the A-Bomb is putting North Korea in the same category. N. Korea has hundereds of thousands of people die annually because of disease and starvation.

CMJ, you really need to listen to some conservative radio and pick up some conservative "rags" and find out what is really going on instead of getting your news from ABC, NBC and CBS.

________________

other than that we will have to continue to agree to disagree.

i really do appreciate your patience to banter and i do like reading your opinions but we will have to disagree on many political points......however, we can all agree that Dodgeball will be great this year.

Edited May 9, 2007 by eulesseagle

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---The situation in Northern Ireland has really improved the past few years over what it was 20-25 years ago. It is a great reason why politics and government should never be mixed. Once they become intertwined that there all reason disappears.

[Mean Green 93-98]

So, Paine...who has been called the father of the revolution....Jefferson and Adams, 2 of our first 3 Presidents....aren't considered founding fathers because they didn't sign the Constitution?

No, I did not say they were not founding fathers. But if we are going to consider the intent of the First Amendment, we are going to need to bring up those actually involved in the framing of the Constitution.

Actually the "establishment clause" meant different things to different people if you read the Federalist Papers, with some clearly meaning no state church as you note and some clearly wary of overt political involvement of churches in religion. After all, we did't develop Christian Democratic Parties like some countries did. It was Jefferson, who first used the term "separation of church and state" in both his letters and the treaty with the Barbary States.

True. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people refer to the term as though it were in the Constitution.

Our symbols, especially our early symbols are filled with pagan and Masonic themes also, including pyramids, mystic eyes, and other occult signs you can find on our currency and early buildings.

You are probably right about the Masonic influence. As far as the "mystic eyes"; if you are referring to that which is on the dollar bill, that has always been said to be the eye of Providence. Perhaps someone had ulterior motives with "occult signs," but any occult signs brought in were not done with the knowing consent of the United States populace nor representation. The Massachusetts constitution (widely bearing the stamp of John Adams) says

Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. Article III. As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily

Other state constitutions have similar provisions for what they consider Christian worship; but occultism, witchcraft, etc. was never considered a "protected religion" under the First Amendment.

The problem you quickly get when you talk about a generic Christian creed in our country is whose creed?

I'm not sure if you're referring to something I said there, or someone else. Perhaps there have been general beliefs adhered to (belief in God and Jesus Christ), but I do not know of any written "Christian creed" for our country, nor do I believe there should be.

Do you use the Jewish or Protestant version of the 10 Commandments?

I do not know of any difference between the two.

Do you use the Cathloic, Jewish or Protestant Bible? Or do you use the Jehovah's Witness version or the Book of Mormon? They all claim to be Christian. If you use tax dollars to promote one, then you are promoting ONE version of religion and you get right back to the situation the 18th Century rebelled so much against-state promoted religion.

Obviously, the Book of Mormon is not the Bible, and even Mormons would acknowledge that. As to the version of the Bible you use, I would think you would use the English Bible that has had the largest influence upon society--clearly the King James Version. The earliest American public schools never experienced "rebellion against state-promoted religion" when the Bible was taught, and it universally was. The New England Primer and McGuffey Reader were filled with religious teachings and Biblical quotes. But there are inevitable problems one runs into when suggesting teaching the Bible in today's postmodern world.

[Green to the Bone]

Hey, how about that albino squirrel? Man, that critter is sure cute!

[island eagle]

No, I did not say they were not founding fathers. But if we are going to consider the intent of the First Amendment, we are going to need to bring up those actually involved in the framing of the Constitution.

True. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people refer to the term as though it were in the Constitution.

You are probably right about the Masonic influence. As far as the "mystic eyes"; if you are referring to that which is on the dollar bill, that has always been said to be the eye of Providence. Perhaps someone had ulterior motives with "occult signs," but any occult signs brought in were not done with the knowing consent of the United States populace nor representation. The Massachusetts constitution (widely bearing the stamp of John Adams) says Other state constitutions have similar provisions for what they consider Christian worship; but occultism, witchcraft, etc. was never considered a "protected religion" under the First Amendment.

I'm not sure if you're referring to something I said there, or someone else. Perhaps there have been general beliefs adhered to (belief in God and Jesus Christ), but I do not know of any written "Christian creed" for our country, nor do I believe there should be.

I do not know of any difference between the two.

Obviously, the Book of Mormon is not the Bible, and even Mormons would acknowledge that. As to the version of the Bible you use, I would think you would use the English Bible that has had the largest influence upon society--clearly the King James Version. The earliest American public schools never experienced "rebellion against state-promoted religion" when the Bible was taught, and it universally was. The New England Primer and McGuffey Reader were filled with religious teachings and Biblical quotes. But there are inevitable problems one runs into when suggesting teaching the Bible in today's postmodern world.

It's been fun having this discussion, but I assume we should probably get back to discussing basketball and other North Texas sports. But, to answer just one of your questions/comments (to respond to them all would just get us back in the debate again). Yes, there are differences between the Jewish and Protestant versions of the Commandments as well as the Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran (I'm always amazed at how little fundamentalists know about the Bible despite their strong literalism). Actually, there are 19 different commandments (some group them down to 14-15). These are listed in exodus 20:2-17; Exodux 34:12-26 and Deuteronomy (5:6-21). They are condensed into 10 commandments differently by the Jews, Protestant's, Catholics and Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox. To give just one example of why spending tax dollars on religion leads to strife: which version do you put in a public place? The different versions of the Bible are another example. You say teach King James. Well, it is the most literary for sure, but not necessarily the most accurate translation of the Bible. But, why do you choose it over the Catholic Bible (translated from the Latin Vulgate) of the Jewish Bible? Is it because that is the version you want? What if these other groups want their version?

As I say, I've enjoyed the discussion, but I really prefer to get back to using this as a sports site.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

As much as I'd love to join in this discussion, this thread is supposed to be about sports so my $.02.

Louisiana has had public and parochial schools in its athletic association for at least 70 years that I know of. While it's not a paragon of virtue, it has survived relatively well. There have been those that have tried, some of them successfully, to beat the system. There may not be a set of rules that could apply to all schools, even public. So, the UIL will have to take each school on an individual basis. If someone tries to abuse the rules, either discipline them or expel them.

It can and does work.

[Censored by Laurie]

I really wanted to just step aside from this conversation...but euless (who I feel may be Sean Hannity...and that is certainly meant as an insult) to say Appartheid (and global warming) is a myth may be the most insane statement I have ever read. Was the Holocaust a myth as well...oh wait...its the blind policy of every conservative christian to like jewish people because they hate the muslim too. Appartheid was the most violent form of racial segregation that has ever occured...and is now recognized as such an atrosity by all...white and black...south africans, and I thought all people. The following site talks about the truth and reconciliation commission that was formed to help heal that nation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/...tion/203134.stm

Its amazing to me how a person can make the statement you made on appartheid and makes me feel your Fox News and "Conservative Rags" have you sooooo poorly informed on the world. You may want to try the moderate media for a change and actually get some news rather than agenda.

[eulesseagle]

censored/cmj-

aparthied in South Africa was contrived by the liberal press to discredit the white minority rule against the black populace.

if you look into the geopolitical situation, at the time, the white minority was intent on keeping the peace between the two main rioting groups of tribes....the hutus and tootsies. Of course when these tribes were shooting at the police, rioting, looting everyone (including themselves) the government could either let anarchy rule the government or let the police do their jobs. Unfortunately, people were killed and the press made it appear that the white minority government was indiscriminitaly killing africans. The press never mentioned that there were two main african factions trying to take control of the country. In fact the police was trying to restore order between the two and prevent anarchy. I previously stated that without a rule of law you have anarchy.

The result of the conflict happened when the white minority government departed leaving a "void" of police protection for both groups. Over 1,000,000 people were killed as a result of the void of law and order. In other words anarchy.

Now, it appears that aparthied is "only" applied to white vs. african and never against african on white or african on african or white on white. I can only think of one example where a white government tried to exterminate a people that was acceptable. The U.S. government against the American Indians. Naturally, all white victories were called victories and conversly Indian victories were called massacures.

When the left leaning press can give equality to their biased opinions instead of trying to drive a wedge between all groups of races/colors/creds of people around the world......then......IMHO much of this conflict will subside.

[emmitt01]

Aparthied???

Aparthied is much a myth as global cooling was in the 1970's as global warming is today.

Never have I so wished for a "kill stupid" instead of "block" button more than right now. Of course, if anyone claimed I killed you I'd just say you were warring with a rival tribe.

I can only think of one example where a white government tried to exterminate a people that was acceptable. The U.S. government against the American Indians.

Again, "kill stupid"

Edited May 10, 2007 by emmitt01

[CMJ]

I was attempting to wage a PM'ing discussion with EE to keep it off the boards, but this latest post put me over the edge with the racist undertones. Welcome to my ignore list Euless.

[Censored by Laurie]

This is amazing...and has just gone from frusterating to pointless. EE, enjoy the next O'Reily factor, Revivalist convention or hooded cross burning...whatever you do for kicks. If they do allow prayer in public schools I hope every child prays for you to find some common sense.

Emmitt and CMJ, thank you for youre efforts as well...but this guy is in a whole other world of ignorance.

[eulesseagle]

cmj/censored--

you can not prove your point by calling someone a racist because you disagree with them.

it is paramont to reviewing a book without reading the book.

besides all the facts are in the history books.

[LAZER]

I just stumbled into this thread and now I am stumbling back out.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

cmj/censored--

you can not prove your point by calling someone a racist because you disagree with them.

it is paramont to reviewing a book without reading the book.

besides all the facts are in the history books.

---All the facts are not in the history books by any stretch of the imagination... They may be in various records and documents but not history books. Reading history books published about 1900 and even prior to WWII are a great deal different when discussing social issues and even events reported. I have some books of my parents, grand-parents etc. and some of the things stated are rather shocking and very slanted to certain view-points.

---Some think ONLY Fox tells the truth while CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, Newsweek, NY Times, Washington Post, Time Magazine, the BCC, and the rest are lying snakes. I wonder why only one network can see the truth while the rest are so corrupt. Could it be that it is the one network out that group isn't being honest? After all the current government will always tell you the truth... just ask those who lived in Germany during the 1930's. Might as well throw college profs into the same group as the media.... hmmmm... those are two really informed groups that check facts...... The trick by some now is if others disagree with them call them liberals, commies, pagans, un-Christian etc. or some other unflattering name---and make fun of them. [ again sounds like Germany, 1930's ]

--I am reading a book by Bob Schieffer (CBS news from Ft.Worth and TCU) and it is interesting to see his comments on government claims by Nixon, Johnson and others. Apparently Nixon was even hinting at having the FCC pull licences of stations that were saying things he did not want stated. Fortunately he did not succeed and was eventually forced out of office. --

___________

Back to the topic.... Private and religious schools do not have a certain district to pull from.... they will recruit or at least attract athletes from everywhere... which gives them an advantage especially among smaller schools. There are cases where a wealthy supporter will pay a kid's tuition if comes to the school he supports (scholarship?) and guess what, he is a good athlete. . My wife after teaching in public schools for years, now works at a private school, a good one academicly, and not near as sports rabid as some. Private schools have no business in UIL.

Edited May 10, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[CMJ]

Let's please lock this thread.

[eulesseagle]

to be serious.....i know there was aparthied and not to admit aparthied is like denying the holocost.

however, it was a little fun to see how upset cmj and a couple of others got.

[Quoner]

This is amazing...and has just gone from frusterating to pointless. EE, enjoy the next O'Reily factor, Revivalist convention or hooded cross burning...whatever you do for kicks. If they do allow prayer in public schools I hope every child prays for you to find some common sense.

Emmitt and CMJ, thank you for youre efforts as well...but this guy is in a whole other world of ignorance.

That's not a fair stereotype - I'm one of the nation's finest fundraising Log Cabin Republicans.

Oh, and we're working hard on a new North Texas Unicorn Stadium - very hard

I'm a bird and I'm gay...yaaaaay!