From Buford Julep

[eulesseagle]

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Date Posted: Sat, May 05 2007, 11:06:10

Author: Buford_julep

Subject: The end of high school hoops as we know it

State Senator Dan Patrick, the "Texas Rush Limbaugh," has introduced a bill that will ruin Texas high school basketball. The Texas Republican right wing religious cabal is behind the bill that will let Rick Perry's favorite church school basketball team into the UIL.

AP STORY:

Bill would let public, private schools compete for championships

05/04/2007

By JIM VERTUNO / Associated Press

A politically powerful megachurch in San Antonio is pushing Texas lawmakers to let its small Christian school with a history of bending the rules to field elite athletic teams join the state league for public schools.

A proposal by Sen. Dan Patrick, R-Houston, to allow private schools to join the University Interscholastic League, the dominion of the state's public schools, passed the Senate late last month. A similar measure by Rep. Frank Corte, R-San Antonio, is pending in the House.

The church behind the push is Cornerstone Christian Church, founded in 1975 by televangelist John Hagee, whose television and radio programs are broadcast throughout the U.S.

The Cornerstone Christian school has been sanctioned several times in recent years by the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools over concerns about how it put together basketball squads that included several out-of-state and international players.

While the bills would allow other private schools to apply to the UIL, there's little doubt Cornerstone is driving the proposed change. Cornerstone religious and administrative leaders were the only ones to testify in support of the Senate bill.

Cornerstone has grown from a small congregation of about 100 to a 5,000-member behemoth that dabbles in politics.

Last year, Hagee founded Christians United for Israel, a national lobbying group hoping to influence government on behalf of Israel. Republican Gov. Rick Perry and dozens of political candidates from both parties attended a Sunday service there two days before the 2006 election.

Texas is one of only three states with separate athletic championships for public and private schools. TAPPS has about 250 member schools. The UIL has about 1,300.

Public school officials and state lawmakers have long fought to keep private schools out of the UIL, fearing the private schools could recruit athletes and bend other rules.

The state made two exceptions in 2003, allowing Jesuit schools in Dallas and Houston to join after TAPPS determined they were too big to compete in a league comprised mostly of small schools.

Essentially banished from TAPPS in September 2006, Cornerstone applied for entry to the UIL and was denied. The school then filed a federal religious discrimination lawsuit to force its way in.

"Our school is going to be the very best we can make it and no one is going to prevent us from achieving excellence in any area," Hagee told his congregation when he announced the lawsuit in February.

But a lawsuit could drag on for years and the school hopes lawmakers will crack open the doors to the UIL before the legislative session ends May 28.

Patrick calls it a fairness issue to private school families whose property taxes help support public schools but are being kept out of UIL competitions.

He compared it to the days of racial discrimination in athletics, noting the Texas Western (now Texas-El Paso) team that won the 1966 NCAA basketball tournament with an all-black starting lineup.

UIL Athletic Director Charles Breithaupt said public schools are happy to play regular season games against private schools, but don't want them competing for the same championships.

"Private schools have to recruit. That's their nature," Breithaupt said. "They have to open their doors and invite people to come in. They can be as big or small as they want to be."

The church school has played hardball in athletics and has gotten in trouble for it.

It first ran into trouble with TAPPS when it recruited five Mexican players, including future NBA player Eduardo Najera, for the 1994-95 season. Cornerstone sued for reinstatement and was readmitted in 2000.

It wasn't long before more troubles cropped up.

In December 2005, Cornerstone was kicked out of TAPPS postseason competition for the school year. TAPPS later ruled 11 basketball players were ineligible because they received improper room-and-board inducements and the team was placed on probation.

TAPPS refused to renew Cornerstone's membership last year, citing noncompliance with the organization's rules.

UIL officials say league rules prohibit private schools that are eligible to play in another league to join UIL. They can also deny schools banished from another league for rules violations.

"This is simply something that is not fair," Hagee told Senators, calling the exclusion discrimination.

Even without playing in a state league last season, Cornerstone still had a top-notch basketball team, winning the National Association of Christian Athletes championship and several members signed to play at Division I colleges.

UIL and Cornerstone officials dispute how many private schools would try to join UIL if allowed.

Breithaupt said he thinks it would be many and could seriously damage TAPPS. Hagee said most private schools are happy where they are and predicted few would try to change.

Corte said he's aware of reports of Cornerstone's troubles but doesn't know details. Several of his constituents have children attending Cornerstone.

Corte and Patrick note their bills require private schools in UIL to abide by the league's eligibility and recruiting rules.

"We're not asking for any waiver of those requirements," Corte said. "Whoever wants to do that is going to have to step up and do what the public schools do. If they don't, they should be penalized."

Hagee pledged to lawmakers that Cornerstone would abide by UIL rules if allowed to play. The school announced in early April it was dropping its elite-level basketball program in favor of a team made up of local players.

Sen. Leticia Van de Putte, D-San Antonio, praised the Cornerstone Church as an outstanding member of the San Antonio community. But knowing the school's history of rules violations in TAPPS, she voted against the bill in committee and again on the Senate floor.

"All I know is they were in a league and they were kicked out," Van de Putte said. "In all good conscience, I couldn't do it. I just couldn't affirm the violations."

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My question to B.J.-

1. Are you running as Hillary Clinton's Vice President?

2. How much more of the Constitution do you want to get rid of?

[ADLER]

Buford is right. This legislation is the worst thing that could ever happen to Texas high school sports.

For proof, look to other states where it's already been enacted.

[Buford_Julep]

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Date Posted: Sat, May 05 2007, 11:06:10

Author: Buford_julep

Subject: The end of high school hoops as we know it

State Senator Dan Patrick, the "Texas Rush Limbaugh," has introduced a bill that will ruin Texas high school basketball. The Texas Republican right wing religious cabal is behind the bill that will let Rick Perry's favorite church school basketball team into the UIL.

AP STORY:

Bill would let public, private schools compete for championships

05/04/2007

By JIM VERTUNO / Associated Press

A politically powerful megachurch in San Antonio is pushing Texas lawmakers to let its small Christian school with a history of bending the rules to field elite athletic teams join the state league for public schools.

A proposal by Sen. Dan Patrick, R-Houston, to allow private schools to join the University Interscholastic League, the dominion of the state's public schools, passed the Senate late last month. A similar measure by Rep. Frank Corte, R-San Antonio, is pending in the House.

The church behind the push is Cornerstone Christian Church, founded in 1975 by televangelist John Hagee, whose television and radio programs are broadcast throughout the U.S.

The Cornerstone Christian school has been sanctioned several times in recent years by the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools over concerns about how it put together basketball squads that included several out-of-state and international players.

While the bills would allow other private schools to apply to the UIL, there's little doubt Cornerstone is driving the proposed change. Cornerstone religious and administrative leaders were the only ones to testify in support of the Senate bill.

Cornerstone has grown from a small congregation of about 100 to a 5,000-member behemoth that dabbles in politics.

Last year, Hagee founded Christians United for Israel, a national lobbying group hoping to influence government on behalf of Israel. Republican Gov. Rick Perry and dozens of political candidates from both parties attended a Sunday service there two days before the 2006 election.

Texas is one of only three states with separate athletic championships for public and private schools. TAPPS has about 250 member schools. The UIL has about 1,300.

Public school officials and state lawmakers have long fought to keep private schools out of the UIL, fearing the private schools could recruit athletes and bend other rules.

The state made two exceptions in 2003, allowing Jesuit schools in Dallas and Houston to join after TAPPS determined they were too big to compete in a league comprised mostly of small schools.

Essentially banished from TAPPS in September 2006, Cornerstone applied for entry to the UIL and was denied. The school then filed a federal religious discrimination lawsuit to force its way in.

"Our school is going to be the very best we can make it and no one is going to prevent us from achieving excellence in any area," Hagee told his congregation when he announced the lawsuit in February.

But a lawsuit could drag on for years and the school hopes lawmakers will crack open the doors to the UIL before the legislative session ends May 28.

Patrick calls it a fairness issue to private school families whose property taxes help support public schools but are being kept out of UIL competitions.

He compared it to the days of racial discrimination in athletics, noting the Texas Western (now Texas-El Paso) team that won the 1966 NCAA basketball tournament with an all-black starting lineup.

UIL Athletic Director Charles Breithaupt said public schools are happy to play regular season games against private schools, but don't want them competing for the same championships.

"Private schools have to recruit. That's their nature," Breithaupt said. "They have to open their doors and invite people to come in. They can be as big or small as they want to be."

The church school has played hardball in athletics and has gotten in trouble for it.

It first ran into trouble with TAPPS when it recruited five Mexican players, including future NBA player Eduardo Najera, for the 1994-95 season. Cornerstone sued for reinstatement and was readmitted in 2000.

It wasn't long before more troubles cropped up.

In December 2005, Cornerstone was kicked out of TAPPS postseason competition for the school year. TAPPS later ruled 11 basketball players were ineligible because they received improper room-and-board inducements and the team was placed on probation.

TAPPS refused to renew Cornerstone's membership last year, citing noncompliance with the organization's rules.

UIL officials say league rules prohibit private schools that are eligible to play in another league to join UIL. They can also deny schools banished from another league for rules violations.

"This is simply something that is not fair," Hagee told Senators, calling the exclusion discrimination.

Even without playing in a state league last season, Cornerstone still had a top-notch basketball team, winning the National Association of Christian Athletes championship and several members signed to play at Division I colleges.

UIL and Cornerstone officials dispute how many private schools would try to join UIL if allowed.

Breithaupt said he thinks it would be many and could seriously damage TAPPS. Hagee said most private schools are happy where they are and predicted few would try to change.

Corte said he's aware of reports of Cornerstone's troubles but doesn't know details. Several of his constituents have children attending Cornerstone.

Corte and Patrick note their bills require private schools in UIL to abide by the league's eligibility and recruiting rules.

"We're not asking for any waiver of those requirements," Corte said. "Whoever wants to do that is going to have to step up and do what the public schools do. If they don't, they should be penalized."

Hagee pledged to lawmakers that Cornerstone would abide by UIL rules if allowed to play. The school announced in early April it was dropping its elite-level basketball program in favor of a team made up of local players.

Sen. Leticia Van de Putte, D-San Antonio, praised the Cornerstone Church as an outstanding member of the San Antonio community. But knowing the school's history of rules violations in TAPPS, she voted against the bill in committee and again on the Senate floor.

"All I know is they were in a league and they were kicked out," Van de Putte said. "In all good conscience, I couldn't do it. I just couldn't affirm the violations."

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My question to B.J.-

1. Are you running as Hillary Clinton's Vice President?

2. How much more of the Constitution do you want to get rid of?

1. I prefer Edwards or Obama.

2. ???? This is clearly a state issue. How is it violating the constitution? If I get kicked out of the Elks club does the Lions club have to accept me?

I suggest Cornerstone clean up it's outlaw program, get reinstated by TAPPS, prove it is running an acceptable program and then ask to be admitted to the UIL . The UIL was created in 1909 for public schools but it admitted two clean private schools, Dallas Jesuit and Houston Strake Jesuit, that were really too big for TAPPS.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Buford_Julep

[BleedGreen64]

Buford, AMEN!!!!!

[eulesseagle]

Buford Julep-

My point is "not" if you favor an ex-ambulance chasing attorney (or as Rush calls him the "Breck Girl") or someone who attended muslim schools who claims to be part Irish but your partisan remarks if someone is a Christian Conservative without catagorizing him as a "right wing religious cabol."

It appears that you want to limit/destroy the "Freedom of Speech" of those who disagree with the left and limit/destroy the "Freedom of Religion" of those who provide better education than the politically correct and left leaning public schools.

There have been plenty of instances where public schools have done the same or worse as what the school run under the direction of Pastor Hagee.

Personally, I champion the Texas Legislature in passing the admendment to begin Bible classes in the public schools again.

And for the record I like Fred Thompson.

[JayDub]

...or someone who attended muslim schools who claims to be part Irish...

I think the Muslim school thing turned out to be a myth...big f-cking if he did. Weren't we founded on religious freedom?

Speaking of the religious right...anyone seen the documentary "Jesus Camp"? Frickin' scary...

[FirefightnRick]

On Hagee's qoute:

He compared it to the days of racial discrimination in athletics, noting the Texas Western (now Texas-El Paso) team that won the 1966 NCAA basketball tournament with an all-black starting lineup.

It would be real easy for me to believe why it happend if after making this statement in public someone within arm's length reached over and jacked this asshole in the mouth. You gotta be kidding me? Comparing a road block for his fat wallet to true racial sufferage of the 60's?

Rick

[Green to the Bone]

Politics aside (HA! -- how often does that work?), the athletic issue here is whether a school that's known to be a cheater ought to be able to throw its weight around.

I say no.

They say both bills would require them to follow UIL rules on recruiting and eligibility. What an insult to our intelligence. They were already bound by a set of rules and ignored those. Their adherence to UIL rules would be no different.

This is a power play, nothing more. To wrap it up as religious freedom or to compare it to racial discrimination is an outrage.

[eulesseagle]

The main concern with lawmaker was not if sanctions were delivered to Cornerstone because the judge ruled against the UIL for biasly keeping a private school with an excellent athletic record out of the UIL. Cite the example of Dallas Jesuit.

Cornerstone wants to improve its competition. It would be like UNT playing Austin College in football and basketball. Cornerstone has outgrown its competition.

Private Religious school must recruit students for their schools to operate. Different "ballgame" from state supported public schools.

And as far as what ffr considers a racial statement comparing TAPPS to UIL....i will have to agree what the UIL is doing is exculionary, discriminatory and a little Jim Crowish.

Edited May 7, 2007 by eulesseagle

[Green to the Bone]

The main concern with lawmaker was not if sanctions were delivered to Cornerstone because the judge ruled against the UIL for biasly keeping a private school with an excellent athletic record out of the UIL. Cite the example of Dallas Jesuit.

Cornerstone wants to improve its competition. It would be like UNT playing Austin College in football and basketball. Cornerstone has outgrown its competition.

Private Religious school must recruit students for their schools to operate. Different "ballgame" from state supported public schools.

And as far as what ffr considers a racial statement comparing TAPPS to UIL....i will have to agree what the UIL is doing is exculionary, discriminatory and a little Jim Crowish.

I believe the UIL made a mistake with the admission of any private schools. That would call for a correction, not for continuing the mistake.

How many ways does your argument that they're being discriminated against on religious grounds fail? Let's count.

1. Private religious schools must recruit, but not because they are religious. Private nonreligious schools must recruit as well. Religion is irrelevant to the topic.

2. Since private schools must recruit, please explain how Cornerstone would comply with the UIL rule prohibiting recruiting.

3. If the main consideration is improving Cornerstone's competition, let them do it in the free market, by encouraging their private school competitors to improve. They seem to want to reject public education until it offers them something they can't get on their own. Sorry, but they're encountering the limits imposed by their own choice. The taxpayer does not owe Cornerstone a tougher schedule.

4. The UIL does not ban religious schools because they are religious. It bans them because they are private. Attending a private school is a choice with which the government does not interfere. No government agency is prohibiting "the free exercise" of religion (the language of the First Amendment). Improving athletic competition is not a First Amendment right.

5. "A little Jim Crowish?" Who's threatening to lynch Cornerstone's students or firebomb their houses? You need to learn something about what Jim Crow means before you use language like that. There are many books on the topic in your taxpayer-supported public library. I suggest you read them.

Cornerstone's argument fails on every score except one: that the UIL already has made exceptions. That's the only case they have, and the UIL needs to do something to fix it.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---- Absolutely NO to private schools in UIL. We have one here which is sort of a home school and don't meet classes every day. Those guys that play basketball spend HOURS practicing when not in class (a lot of the time) and pretty much year around I understand. They could always claim parents are watching these things and not coaches and get away with it. And yes, some of these private schools do recruit somewhat. My wife teaches in one now but not the odd one mentioned above. Notice now that lots of Spelling -Bee winners are not from public schools..... They "could" spend hours on that subject and they will on other sports and events as well thus would have an unfair advantage. All private school would recruit somewhat and here kids that are good but not good enough for AAAAA will enroll at a small private school sometimes in order to play. The lower classifications would be hurt the worst by this change and I think private schools would dominate these groups, A, AA, maybe AAA.

---- I have mixed opinions on Bible classes in public schools. We once had them here but they died out for the lack of interest and because graduation requirements allowed less electives. Odessa has Bible classes now that seems to be working ok BUT I can see situations that could really cause problems. While working in public school we once had some early morning devotions on the intercom that I could almost tell for certain which church the person attended and heard some that could be offensive to some other Christian groups much less other religions.

---- Some of the complaints by fundamentalist people are just nuts. I have had students who just wanted to read a Bible or whatever (talk about religion sometimes) when they had mathematics assignments to do and they were just about failing. I guess I was considered anti-religion just because I told the kid to put it up and get to work. Trust me I am not anti-Christian, I attend church semi-regularly.. I have never known of a teacher that objected to a kid having a Bible at school, just what they were were trying to do with it. It is these type of actions that have caused the mess with religion in schools and complaints by the crazies out there. Some of these folks if you give them an inch that want to take a mile. I can't count the times I have had kids claim they didn't do their homework because they went to church the night before and apparently it lasted a long time (revivals etc.). Guess I was anti-religion because I wasn't real sympathetic..

_______________

--- Similiar argument for the Talons who wanted to chalk up the sidewalks... once they start, everygroup on campus including religious and political ones will be writing on them and probably concrete walls as well. I can promise that the Latter Day saints will want classes on the book of Morman, Islamics will want Koran classes, Buddists etc. Not every community has a lot of Orientals but some do and have a lot of groups who are not Christian. Be careful what you ask for you may get it and it will cause even more division and problems.

Edited May 7, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[BleedGreen64]

NO NO NO to private schools unless they find some way to work within attendance guidelines and not recruit.

No one has ever been stopped from praying to "their" Maker unless it is disrupted to the class - aloud, on the floor, etc.

I am only for religion in schools if they teach "my" beliefs. Other wise parents that want it should be taking their children to their place of worship.There ministers, priest, rabbis, etc. are far more versed in their religion than a "school" teacher. How often would a coach be pencilled in to teach religion as they have done (miserably and erroneously) to history and government over the years.

[JayDub]

Jesus loves a good football team. Seems the nastiest, dirtiest players we ever played against in preseason JV ball back in the day...were the "Christian School" Teams

[KRAM1]

Ain't Texas politics great? And, remember, it's all about the STUDENT ATHLETE.....yea, and what turnip truck did you fall off? Come on boys and girls...would a good Christian school cheat???? I can't believe it...what is this world coming too???? Now, what was it I read about the home school "basketball acadmey" recently...or what about the JUCO that plenty of colleges were using to get their STUDENT ATHLETES qualified under NCAA guidelines? I just can't believe someone would cheat! :-) Tellme it isn't so! We must not be in Kansas anymore, toto!

[Censored by Laurie]

Jim Crow? Texas Western? The audacity of Cornerstone to claim they're being held out of UIL b/c of religious discrimination (esp. in Texas) may only be comparable to Barry Bonds claiming there's controversy about the home run record is b/c he's black. Whenever someones gets caught lying, cheating or stealing the discrimination defense is insesivly brought up and its sickening. TAPPS had legit reasons for washing its hands of Cornerstone, so why would UIL want to take on this mess? Cornerstone violated regulations, and I can assure you it is not being discriminated against by the conservative christian lawmakers who probably frequently attend Cornerstone services.

GTTB has it figured out. The Jesuits ought never have been admitted in to UIL. If TAPPS school size keeps increasing, perhaps it should try a more specific classification system.

As for Bible classes in public schools: Despite the fact that the majority of the population is Christian...we are not a Christian nation. The first amendment protects the ability of a person to worship however he/she feels fit and Bible classes clearly infringe on that ability. If you feel you child needs to pray in school...put him/her in a private school

[Censored by Laurie]

Jim Crow? Texas Western? The audacity of Cornerstone to claim they're being held out of UIL b/c of religious discrimination (esp. in Texas) may only be comparable to Barry Bonds claiming there's controversy about the home run record is b/c he's black. Whenever someones gets caught lying, cheating or stealing the discrimination defense is insesivly brought up and its sickening. TAPPS had legit reasons for washing its hands of Cornerstone, so why would UIL want to take on this mess? Cornerstone violated regulations, and I can assure you it is not being discriminated against by the conservative christian lawmakers who probably frequently attend Cornerstone services.

GTTB has it figured out. The Jesuits ought never have been admitted in to UIL. If TAPPS school size keeps increasing, perhaps it should try a more specific classification system.

As for Bible classes in public schools: Despite the fact that the majority of the population is Christian...we are not a Christian nation. The first amendment protects the ability of a person to worship however he/she feels fit and Bible classes clearly infringe on that ability. If you feel you child needs to pray in school...put him/her in a private school

[Mean Green 93-98]

As for Bible classes in public schools: Despite the fact that the majority of the population is Christian...we are not a Christian nation. The first amendment protects the ability of a person to worship however he/she feels fit and Bible classes clearly infringe on that ability. If you feel you child needs to pray in school...put him/her in a private school

I personally have reservations about the Bible being taught in public schools because of the secular approach many of the teachers would likely take. It is foolish to separate the Bible from the salvation it holds. But the first amendment never spoke anything to a freedom from religion. If the Constitution were meant to provide a society with freedom from the Bible, why was the Bible the number one cited reference in the framing of the Constitution?

[Censored by Laurie]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." If every child is required to attend school...and all schools require a Bible class...that seems to me to be a law establishing a religion.

[island eagle]

Jim Crow? Texas Western? The audacity of Cornerstone to claim they're being held out of UIL b/c of religious discrimination (esp. in Texas) may only be comparable to Barry Bonds claiming there's controversy about the home run record is b/c he's black. Whenever someones gets caught lying, cheating or stealing the discrimination defense is insesivly brought up and its sickening. TAPPS had legit reasons for washing its hands of Cornerstone, so why would UIL want to take on this mess? Cornerstone violated regulations, and I can assure you it is not being discriminated against by the conservative christian lawmakers who probably frequently attend Cornerstone services.

GTTB has it figured out. The Jesuits ought never have been admitted in to UIL. If TAPPS school size keeps increasing, perhaps it should try a more specific classification system.

As for Bible classes in public schools: Despite the fact that the majority of the population is Christian...we are not a Christian nation. The first amendment protects the ability of a person to worship however he/she feels fit and Bible classes clearly infringe on that ability. If you feel you child needs to pray in school...put him/her in a private school

Until the 7th grade, I went to a small rural school where they read the Bible to us everyday. Based upon the life paths of all my classmates (me included), it was counterproductive at best. My own belief is that when state and religion are mixed, both are corrupted. Nothing is more deadly to true religion that an official or state religion or a semblance there of. That's not to say that religious values should be excluded from politics, quite the contrary. But, religion for its own sake, is best kept from the temptations of temporal power.

[eulesseagle]

You have the establishment clause all out of context.

The framers of the Constitution did not want to establish "one" religious sect as was forced upon the English with the Church of England. That is why England has trouble with the Protestants in Northern Ireland today.

The framers were not pursuing the United States into a one state sponsored religion (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherian....) but were giving all us the choice of which Christian religion we so desired.

Without Chrisianity there is no soul for a country.

As for the cited descrepancies of Cornerstone, in the TAPPS case, people should learn to forgive, forget and move forward. Ya'll act like Cornerstone is the only school who had athletic violations.......Just look south to SMU, Texas A&M, USC, Miami, LaLa, and you name the rest of the schools that have been placed on probation and your outrage for these schools do not complare to some of your distain for Cornerstone.

[island eagle]

You have the establishment clause all out of context.

The framers of the Constitution did not want to establish "one" religious sect as was forced upon the English with the Church of England. That is why England has trouble with the Protestants in Northern Ireland today.

The framers were not pursuing the United States into a one state sponsored religion (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherian....) but were giving all us the choice of which Christian religion we so desired.

Without Chrisianity there is no soul for a country.

As for the cited descrepancies of Cornerstone, in the TAPPS case, people should learn to forgive, forget and move forward. Ya'll act like Cornerstone is the only school who had athletic violations.......Just look south to SMU, Texas A&M, USC, Miami, LaLa, and you name the rest of the schools that have been placed on probation and your outrage for these schools do not complare to some of your distain for Cornerstone.

That's a whole other debate. Since Thomas Paine was a deist, Jefferson wasn't Christiian, John Adams Unitarian and Ben Franklin unclassifiable, its doubtful that they were only interested in Christian religion. Many of the founding fathers were strongly influenced by the enlightenment, which was highly skeptical of organized Christianity. For that matter, George Washington was denounced by his critics because he so seldom showed up in a church and was clearly not all that devout.

I would agree with the statement that without religion there is no soul for a country, but don't think that the religion has to be Chrisitanity. I spent time in India and think they had plenty of soul. In fact, they could teach us a thing or two about religious devotion.

[Green to the Bone]

You have the establishment clause all out of context.

The framers of the Constitution did not want to establish "one" religious sect as was forced upon the English with the Church of England. That is why England has trouble with the Protestants in Northern Ireland today.

The framers were not pursuing the United States into a one state sponsored religion (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherian....) but were giving all us the choice of which Christian religion we so desired.

Without Chrisianity there is no soul for a country.

As for the cited descrepancies of Cornerstone, in the TAPPS case, people should learn to forgive, forget and move forward. Ya'll act like Cornerstone is the only school who had athletic violations.......Just look south to SMU, Texas A&M, USC, Miami, LaLa, and you name the rest of the schools that have been placed on probation and your outrage for these schools do not complare to some of your distain for Cornerstone.

Religion is one hundred percent irrelevant to the question of whether Cornerstone should be admitted to UIL.

It's not a religious argument. It seems too ridiculous to have to state, but I'll state it anyway: The soul of America will not be damned or saved based on whether Cornerstone has a tougher schedule.

It's an athletic organization argument. Private schools don't belong because private schools must recruit, while public schools cannot. That's an insurmountable fact.

The fact that UIL has fuzzed up the lines already is a problem for UIL to solve, perhaps with help from the courts.

And the fact that this particular private school routinely cheats works against their case, not for it. The other cheater schools you mentioned are paying or have paid a penalty for their cheating. Cornerstone, on the other hand, wants a reward for theirs.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Green to the Bone

[eulesseagle]

IE-

India may teach some about sitting around chanting, meditation and putting their souls in the hands of reincarnation, rocks, trees and animals but all great western civilized countries have based their consitutions, laws and morals on the Biblical priciples beginning with the Magna Carta.

India had its chance under the rule of England but Gandi changed that and look what happened. India devolved from civilized country to a third world power in constant conflict with hindus, muslims and other non-christian sects.

But getting away from that Cornerstone's fate is in the hands of the Texas Legislature.

[CMJ]

IE-

India may teach some about sitting around chanting, meditation and putting their souls in the hands of reincarnation, rocks, trees and animals but all great western civilized countries have based their consitutions, laws and morals on the Biblical priciples beginning with the Magna Carta.

India had its chance under the rule of England but Gandi changed that and look what happened. India devolved from civilized country to a third world power in constant conflict with hindus, muslims and other non-christian sects.

All of which they had under British rule. India isn't really considered a thrid world country now you know. Along with countries like South Africa and Brazil they're considered in transition. And there are Third World Christian countries too - like most of South America, so that argument is pure garbage and borderline offensive to be honest.

[Mean Green 93-98]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." If every child is required to attend school...and all schools require a Bible class...that seems to me to be a law establishing a religion.

Well, since John Dewey founded the modern public school system upon the religion of secular humanism, and every child is required to attend, is that still a law establishing a religion?

The Bible classes being offered are largely electives in the larger schools, and they will be studied as literature. Considering the undeniable influence the Bible had upon early America, and subsequent corrupted versions of "Christianity" have had upon Western Civilization, it seems that there might be some sense in allowing children to learn the background behind history. And the teachers of such courses will probably be much more capable of getting away with mocking the Bible than trying to teach the children how to come to salvation in Christ. Again, why I am not particularly keen on these public school Bible classes.

As to the gentleman who referred to the few framers of the Constitution who did not openly profess Christianity (actually, Paine, Jefferson, and Adams were not signers to the Constitution), Ben Franklin is quoted as saying the following at the Constitutional Convention (his references to Scripture are noted in brackets):

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights [James 1:17], to illuminate our understanding? In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or, do we imagine we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs [Acts 1:3] I see of this truth—that God governs in the affairs of men [Daniel 4:17]. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice [Matthew 10:29], is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it” [Psalm 127:1]. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel [Genesis 11]: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages [Psalm 44:13-14; Jeremiah 24:9]. I therefore beg leave to move—that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

Look at court decisions through the years that unanimously upheld the Divine Providence upon which our country depended, look at our nations symbols (the Liberty Bell, dollar bill, government buildings in Washington, D.C., et al.) that almost universally allude to God and/or the Bible in some way. The "establishment clause" was never intended to remove God or the Bible from the public eye or mind. It meant that we were not to have a "Church of America," unlike England.

And by the way, I couldn't give a rip one way or the other whether Cornerstone is admitted to UIL.

Edited May 9, 2007 by Mean Green 93-98