Would Rail Service To/from Dallas Help Nt Athletic Attendance?

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Okay, I'm going to be pedantic. I contend that my premise is true, but, of course, not exhaustive (which it does not have to be). I didn't say that every European city has a large subway system. (But, many, many do.) The point is that these cities typically "came of age" before the automobile, and, thus, are very dense. Density is the friend of mass transportation. The subway system in an old city may be old or new.

---Agree, Density is the friend of mass transportation but the reverse is true also. Cities will become more dense when the space needed for parking declines because so many people are using public transportation. It also decreases the need for so many large roads and the space roads occupy as well-- which also contributes to the population density. People will use good safe public transportation (especially rail systems) if the system is large enough and fast enough to get them where they want to go. Autos may have increased density as well to begin with.... horses required more space than autos do, espeically if you toss in the space for a wagon, buggy etc. .

---Odd fact-- because London was/is cursed with lots of narrow streets, people in wagon/buggy times drove on the left because most people were right handed. This way when they "popped" a whip --the whip would pop in the middle of the street--- and not pick-off some unfortunate person on the "sidewalk" which would likly happen if they drove on the right side. The practice continued after cars appeared so they now drive on the "wrong side" compared to most other countries....

Edited April 3, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SilverEagle]

ok you do realize that the station is planned for east of the square and not over by the campus. it also wont run late at night so students that have night classes or labs are up a creek. and if it were to boost attendance how would they get from the station to the field?

One thing they could do is run the NT shuttle buses over to the station to pick up fans and shuttle them to the tailgating area.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

ok you do realize that the station is planned for east of the square and not over by the campus. it also wont run late at night so students that have night classes or labs are up a creek. and if it were to boost attendance how would they get from the station to the field?

--Perhaps before it is constructed, someone will realize the ONE place in Denton the rail system needs to service is the UNT area for the 33,000 students and those who want to attend events there. ..... plus keep the system open until the crowds/classes are gone. That is exactly what was going on at the White Sox stadium... the rail system ran until game ended plus a given amount of time and extra trains ran. [true also at S.F. Giant games as well] Good rail service to the Six-Flags and stadium areas in Arlington would be very helpful as well. Rail systems cost money to start with but they also decrease the need for more highways, parking space, and highway maintenance..

---Someone mentioned PERRY and the new roads around A&M... All that boy wants to do is build a super highway across Texas (controled by a Spanish company) paving over some of the best farm land, close a lot of State Parks, cut state services, plus underfund education to public schools and universities. Now there are those wanting him to be the next VP.... get real.

Edited April 3, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Go_UTA]

---Agree, Density is the friend of mass transportation but the reverse is true also. Cities will become more dense when the space needed for parking declines because so many people are using public transportation. It also decreases the need for so many large roads and the space roads occupy as well-- which also contributes to the population density. People will use good safe public transportation (especially rail systems) if the system is large enough and fast enough to get them where they want to go. Autos may have increased density as well to begin with.... horses required more space than autos do, espeically if you toss in the space for a wagon, buggy etc. .

---Odd fact-- because London was/is cursed with lots of narrow streets, people in wagon/buggy times drove on the left because most people were right handed. This way when they "popped" a whip --the whip would pop in the middle of the street--- and not pick-off some unfortunate person on the "sidewalk" which would likly happen if they drove on the right side. The practice continued after cars appeared so they now drive on the "wrong side" compared to most other countries....

1) okaaay...

2) I guess all those old European cities on the continent with narrow streets - who drive on the right - didn't mind picking-off unfortunate people. Or, maybe the continental Europeans were simply more skilled with the whip than the English.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

1) okaaay...

2) I guess all those old European cities on the continent with narrow streets - who drive on the right - didn't mind picking-off unfortunate people. Or, maybe the continental Europeans were simply more skilled with the whip than the English.

---London is much larger than the rest and very crowded... maybe triple the size of Paris. Paris does have a lot of major wide streets... Rome is a mess and not as modern either but does have a few large streets at least wider than London except the tiny ones... Most German cities have been rebuilt due to what happened in 1940-1945 and have good roads. Some countries once traveled on the other side but changed... some Scandinavian ones have changed sides during my lifetime. Who knows what the others did in buggy times, I don't, but that is the reason London gives for being different.

[gksmith]

I would hope that people in this area would embrace using mass transit. So long as the trains run late enough for people to get to and from the game before closing I think that would be a great asset to NT, Denton, and the area.

I lived in Washington D.C. The red line I road from Bethesda to down town was great. The north end of the red line (at the time I was there)Shady Grove to down town D.C. is about the same distance from Denton to down town Dallas.

[ADLER]

---It's a little known fact that-- because London was/is cursed with lots of narrow streets, people in wagon/buggy times drove on the left because most people were right handed. This way when they "popped" a whip --the whip would pop in the middle of the street--- and not pick-off some unfortunate person on the "sidewalk" which would likly happen if they drove on the right side. The practice continued after cars appeared so they now drive on the "wrong side" compared to most other countries....

Thanks Cliffy.

Actual history and origin:

About a quarter of the world drives on the left, and the countries that do are mostly old British colonies. This strange quirk perplexes the rest of the world; but there is a perfectly good reason.

In the past, almost everybody travelled on the left side of the road because that was the most sensible option for feudal, violent societies. Since most people are right-handed, swordsmen preferred to keep to the left in order to have their right arm nearer to an opponent and their scabbard further from him. Moreover, it reduced the chance of the scabbard (worn on the left) hitting other people.

Furthermore, a right-handed person finds it easier to mount a horse from the left side of the horse, and it would be very difficult to do otherwise if wearing a sword (which would be worn on the left). It is safer to mount and dismount towards the side of the road, rather than in the middle of traffic, so if one mounts on the left, then the horse should be ridden on the left side of the road.

In the late 1700s, however, teamsters in France and the United States began hauling farm products in big wagons pulled by several pairs of horses. These wagons had no driver's seat; instead the driver sat on the left rear horse, so he could keep his right arm free to lash the team. Since he was sitting on the left, he naturally wanted everybody to pass on the left so he could look down and make sure he kept clear of the oncoming wagon’s wheels. Therefore he kept to the right side of the road.

In addition, the French Revolution of 1789 gave a huge impetus to right-hand travel in Europe. The fact is, before the Revolution, the aristocracy travelled on the left of the road, forcing the peasantry over to the right, but after the storming of the Bastille and the subsequent events, aristocrats preferred to keep a low profile and joined the peasants on the right. An official keep-right rule was introduced in Paris in 1794, more or less parallel to Denmark, where driving on the right had been made compulsory in 1793.

Later, Napoleon's conquests spread the new rightism to the Low Countries (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg), Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Russia and many parts of Spain and Italy. The states that had resisted Napoleon kept left – Britain, the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Portugal. This European division, between the left- and right-hand nations would remain fixed for more than 100 years, until after the First World War.

Although left-driving Sweden ceded Finland to right-driving Russia after the Russo-Swedish War (1808-1809), Swedish law – including traffic regulations – remained valid in Finland for another 50 years. It wasn’t until 1858 that an Imperial Russian decree made Finland swap sides.

The trend among nations over the years has been toward driving on the right, but Britain has done its best to stave off global homogenisation. With the expansion of travel and road building in the 1800s, traffic regulations were made in every country. Left-hand driving was made mandatory in Britain in 1835. Countries which were part of the British Empire followed suit. This is why to this very day, India, Australasia and the former British colonies in Africa go left. An exception to the rule, however, is Egypt, which had been conquered by Napoleon before becoming a British dependency.

Although Japan was never part of the British Empire, its traffic also goes to the left. Although the origin of this habit goes back to the Edo period (1603-1867) when Samurai ruled the country, it wasn’t until 1872 that this unwritten rule became more or less official. That was the year when Japan’s first railway was introduced, built with technical aid from the British. Gradually, a massive network of railways and tram tracks was built, and of course all trains and trams drove on the left-hand side. Still, it took another half century till in 1924 left-side driving was clearly written in a law.

When the Dutch arrived in Indonesia in 1596, they brought along their habit of driving on the left. It wasn't until Napoleon conquered the Netherlands that the Dutch started driving on the right. Most of their colonies, however, remained on the left as did Indonesia and Suriname.

In the early years of English colonisation of North America, English driving customs were followed and the colonies drove on the left. After gaining independence from England, however, they were anxious to cast off all remaining links with their British colonial past and gradually changed to right-hand driving. (Incidentally, the influence of other European countries’ nationals should not be underestimated.) The first law requiring drivers to keep right was passed in Pennsylvania in 1792, and similar laws were passed in New York in 1804 and New Jersey in 1813.

Despite the developments in the US, some parts of Canada continued to drive on the left until shortly after the Second World War. The territory controlled by the French (from Quebec to Louisiana) drove on the right, but the territory occupied by the English (British Columbia, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland) kept left. British Columbia and the Atlantic provinces switched to the right in the 1920s in order to conform with the rest of Canada and the USA. Newfoundland drove on the left until 1947, and joined Canada in 1949.

In Europe, the remaining left-driving countries switched one by one to driving on the right. Portugal changed in 1920s. The change took place on the same day in the whole country, including the colonies. Territories, however, which bordered other left-driving countries were exempted. That is why Macau, Goa (now part of India) and Portuguese East Africa kept the old system. East Timor, which borders left-driving Indonesia, did change to the right though, but left-hand traffic was reintroduced by the Indonesians in 1975.

In Italy the practice of driving on the right first began in the late 1890s. The first Italian Highway Code, issued on the 30th of June 1912, stated that all vehicles had to drive on the right. Cities with a tram network, however, could retain left-hand driving if they placed warning signs at their city borders. The 1923 decree is a bit stricter, but Rome and the northern cities of Milan, Turin and Genoa could still keep left until further orders from the Ministry of Public Works. By the mid-1920s, right-hand driving became finally standard throughout the country. Rome made the change on the 1 of March 1925 and Milan on the 3rd of August 1926.

Up till the 1930s Spain lacked national traffic regulations. Some parts of the country drove on the right (e.g. Barcelona) and other parts drove on the left (e.g. Madrid). On the 1st of October 1924 Madrid switched to driving on the right.

The break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire caused no change: Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Hungary continued to drive on the left. Austria itself was something of a curiosity. Half the country drove on the left and half on the right. The dividing line was precisely the area affected by Napoleon's conquests in 1805.

When Germany annexed Austria in 1938, Hitler ordered that the traffic should change from the left to the right side of the road, overnight. The change threw the driving public into turmoil, because motorists were unable to see most road signs. In Vienna it proved impossible to change the trams overnight, so while all other traffic took to the right-hand side of the road, the trams continued to run on the left for several weeks. Czechoslovakia and Hungary, one of the last states on the mainland of Europe to keep left, changed to the right after being invaded by Germany in 1939.

Meanwhile, the power of the right kept growing steadily. American cars were designed to be driven on the right by locating the drivers' controls on the vehicle's left side. With the mass production of reliable and economical cars in the United States, initial exports used the same design, and out of necessity many countries changed their rule of the road.

Gibraltar changed to right-hand traffic in 1929 and China in 1946. Korea now drives right, but only because it passed directly from Japanese colonial rule to American and Russian influence at the end of the Second World War. Pakistan also considered changing to the right in the 1960s, but ultimately decided not to do it. The main argument against the shift was that camel trains often drove through the night while their drivers were dozing. The difficulty in teaching old camels new tricks was decisive in forcing Pakistan to reject the change. Nigeria, a former British colony, had traditionally been driving on the left with British imported right-hand-drive cars, but when it gained independence, it tried to throw off its colonial past as quick as possible and shifted to driving on the right.

After the Second World War, left-driving Sweden, the odd one out in mainland Europe, felt increasing pressure to change sides in order to conform with the rest of the continent. The problem was that all their neighbours already drove on the right side and since there are a lot of small roads without border guards leading into Norway and Finland, one had to remember in which country one was.

In 1955, the Swedish government held a referendum on the introduction of right-hand driving. Although no less than 82.9% voted “no” to the plebiscite, the Swedish parliament passed a law on the conversion to right-hand driving in 1963. Finally, the change took place on Sunday, the 3rd of September 1967, at 5 o’clock in the morning.

All traffic with private motor-driven vehicles was prohibited four hours before and one hour after the conversion, in order to be able to rearrange all traffic signs. Even the army was called in to help. Also a very low speed limit was applied, which was raised in a number of steps. The whole process took about a month. After Sweden's successful changeover, Iceland changed the following year, in 1968.

In the 1960s, Great Britain also considered changing, but the country’s conservative powers did everything they could to nip the proposal in the bud. Furthermore, the fact that it would cost billions of pounds to change everything round wasn’t much of an incentive… Eventually, Britain dropped the idea. Today, only four European countries still drive on the left: the United Kingdom, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta.

Dear Lord of All Things Green and Good....The college basketball season has been over for one day and we still have four months until the first football is kicked off........It's enlightening debates like this one that PROVE that we need baseball at North Texas to bridge the time void.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Geeez what a lot of information...This indicates the left side driving had more to do with weapons than whips but I have read (and heard) while in Europe about the narrow streets in London idea. I had also heard that Napoleon was somehow responsible for Europe driving on the right since he controlled most of it. Of course the British would never do anything the French thought up if they could avoid it. Napoleon is also responsible for the spread of the metric system which makes more sense than the English system we use with inches etc. Several countries have switched sides of travel in the past 70 or so years... It would be tough (and expensive) now with all the "interstate/autobahn" type pf highways which did not exist until Germany created them during the 30's. I remember Sweden switching and it making the news and speculation of how many accidents and deaths would occur. If you have never been in an "other side" county , it is crazy even for pedestrians.. You tend to look the wrong way when crossing streets and cars can come around a corner and surprise you.

---Slightly different but it is related is the fact that that we shake hands with our right hands...... most people are right-handed and it demonstrated that the other person likely did not have a weapon in his hand to attack the other person.

Edited April 4, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[PlummMeanGreen]

Very interesting, ADLER...

But yes, your idea of varsity baseball would be good too. Hey Harry, maybe we also now need a "Community Notes" section on GMG.com?

Edited April 4, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

----Back on track (pun) to the subject. I think rail service to Denton would contribute to us being THE UNIVERSITY OF THE METROPLEX and make us a lot more accessible to those in Dallas and would help attendance, especially if we were winning and having "attractive" opponents appearing in Denton. SMU being a private school and much smaller will shrink into farther the background as it has been doing since its "death penalty" and the breakup of the SWC.

[Greenblood94]

• The saddest part of the year for the NT sports fan has ALWAYS been between basketball and football, with all due respect to softball and track...a veritable desert of NT sports action...
• Living in McKinney, a DART Rail extension through Carrollton to Denton would be nice, but would not be practical for me, since I would have to travel to Carrollton to catch said rail line. If that's what it means, I might as well just continue my current route, going via 380.
• I pray for the day when the traffic around Fouts Field (or whatever new stadium we end up building) is a QUARTER of the logjam it is to go to a Cowboys game...making it MANDATORY to get there early.

[gksmith]

And for the record...there used to be rail service from Denton to Dallas at the turn of the century (the PREVIOUS century).

Oh how we could use rail service between the two cities now.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

And for the record...there used to be rail service from Denton to Dallas at the turn of the century (the PREVIOUS century).

Oh how we could use rail service between the two cities now.

---At that time cars were primitive and paved roads were rare so rail was the best way to go. There was also more RR tracks then and pretty good schedules because of the widespread use. We may be back to where we were then--- but for different reasons. Now the the population is very dense and there are very crowded (and slow) roads so rail transportation makes sense again. The price of fuel has climbed as well and air pollution is a factor as well. The metroplex needs to consider more rail service and people can drive or walk to terminals to get aboard to travel to where-ever. It will become more popular as a larger network with more terminals appear and near good destination points such as colleges, large offices and work-sites, museums, fairgrounds, entertainment areas, and athletic stadiums. It would be good have them near transportation centers (airports) and convention areas as well.

---When I was at UNT during the mid 60's we actually had two chartered train trips... one to a Wichita State football game and one to a Baylor basketball game. Party time both ways.....a lot safer way to travel..

Edited April 5, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SilverEagle]

---At that time cars were primitive and paved roads were rare so rail was the best way to go. There was also more RR tracks then and pretty good schedules because of the widespread use. We may be back to where we were then--- but for different reasons. Now the the population is very dense and there are very crowded (and slow) roads so rail transportation makes sense again. The price of fuel has climbed as well and air pollution is a factor as well. The metroplex needs to consider more rail service and people can drive or walk to terminals to get aboard to travel to where-ever. It will become more popular as a larger network with more terminals appear and near good destination points such as colleges, large offices and work-sites, museums, fairgrounds, entertainment areas, and athletic stadiums. It would be good have them near transportation centers (airports) and convention areas as well.

---When I was at UNT during the mid 60's we actually had two chartered train trips... one to a Wichita State football game and one to a Baylor basketball game. Party time both ways.....a lot safer way to travel..

When I was a young lad living in Longview Texas ( during the 50's) the town (with less than 50k population) had a full bus service. As soon as everyone could afford a car (or two), bus service there went away.

SE66, were those chartered train trips on the Santa Fe or were they on the T&P.

BTW, such a chartered trip could happen again.........

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...96&ssid=137

Edited April 5, 2007 by SilverEagle