I Need Some Answers About The Past .

[calvin]

I was looking at our media guide and I was wanting to know a few things that maybe the older generation can answer. We were in the Missouri Valley Conference for a while, so why did we go Independent ? Then in the 70s we had some good years 10-1, 9-2 and then a few years later we were down to 1AA, what was the reasoning behind that ?

Also looking back at one year that we played Tech at Texas Stadium in that same year they played UL-LA at UL-LA, why couldnt they come to Fouts if they played there ? Any responses would help.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

I was looking at our media guide and I was wanting to know a few things that maybe the older generation can answer. We were in the Missouri Valley Conference for a while, so why did we go Independent ? Then in the 70s we had some good years 10-1, 9-2 and then a few years later we were down to 1AA, what was the reasoning behind that ?

Also looking back at one year that we played Tech at Texas Stadium in that same year they played UL-LA at UL-LA, why couldnt they come to Fouts if they played there ? Any responses would help.

We dropped out of the Missour Valley Conference because there were too few teams left to continue. Its demise started with the formation of the old Metro basketball conference. Cincinnati, Louisville and finally Memphis had dropped out of the old MVC to go into this powerful basketball conference. When Memphis left, we were left with six teams. Drake wasn't drawing well and they opted to drop out of Division I football. Wichita State dropped their football program totally (and still haven't resumed it). We had picked up New Mexico State and West Texas A&M (I believe to replace Cincinnati and Louisville). Those two, plus Tulsa and North Texas would have been the only football playing members. Hayden Fry thought that we could do better by playing teams closer to home that would draw better with less travel expense. He was also exploring our chances to join the Southwest Conference and thought we had a better chance as an independent.

In 1981 the NCAA changed the requirements for Division 1. Those conferences that had the majority of their members with a stadium of 30,000 and an average attendance of 17,000 were allowed to stay in 1A and the rest went to 1AA. As an independent, we didn't have conference averages to protect us. Chancellor Hurley decided not to spend money to enlarge Fouts (on what was not a sure thing) and the BOR agreed. Al Hurley wanted to build the academics at North Texas instead. I must say that he did a creditable job but he wrecked the athletics program.

Texas Tech had a large number of alumni in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and felt that many of them could not be accomodated at Fouts. For that reason, they would only play us at a large enough stadium to seat their alumni. They did have about 10,000 at Texas Stadium so maybe they were right.

Edited February 25, 2007 by GrayEagleOne

[UNT_playmaker]

I was looking at our media guide and I was wanting to know a few things that maybe the older generation can answer. We were in the Missouri Valley Conference for a while, so why did we go Independent ? Then in the 70s we had some good years 10-1, 9-2 and then a few years later we were down to 1AA, what was the reasoning behind that ?

Also looking back at one year that we played Tech at Texas Stadium in that same year they played UL-LA at UL-LA, why couldnt they come to Fouts if they played there ? Any responses would help.

Fouts is a dump

[buff64]

We dropped out of the Missour Valley Conference because there were too few teams left to continue. Its demise started with the formation of the old Metro basketball conference. Cincinnati, Louisville and finally Memphis had dropped out of the old MVC to go into this powerful basketball conference. When Memphis left, we were left with six teams. Drake wasn't drawing well and they opted to drop out of Division I football. Wichita State dropped their football program totally (and still haven't resumed it). We had picked up New Mexico State and West Texas A&M (I believe to replace Cincinnati and Louisville). Those two, plus Tulsa and North Texas would have been the only football playing members. Hayden Fry thought that we could do better by playing teams closer to home that would draw better with less travel expense. He was also exploring our chances to join the Southwest Conference and thought we had a better chance as an independent.

In 1981 the NCAA changed the requirements for Division 1. Those conferences that had the majority of their members with a stadium of 30,000 and an average attendance of 17,000 were allowed to stay in 1A and the rest went to 1AA. As an independent, we didn't have conference averages to protect us. Chancellor Hurley decided not to spend money to enlarge Fouts (on what was not a sure thing) and the BOR agreed. Al Hurley wanted to build the academics at North Texas instead. I must say that he did a creditable job but he wrecked the athletics program.

Texas Tech had a large number of alumni in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and felt that many of them could not be accomodated at Fouts. For that reason, they would only play us at a large enough stadium to seat their alumni. They did have about 10,000 at Texas Stadium so maybe they were right.

West Texas was a member of the MVC while Cinn.,Louisville, and Memphis were still members.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

West Texas was a member of the MVC while Cinn.,Louisville, and Memphis were still members.

I replied off the top of my head without checking dates.

You're right about West Texas not replacing anyone; they were added in 1971 (and stayed until 1985). You are right about Louisville and Memphis but wrong about Cincinnati. In fact I can't find any record that West Texas and Cincinnati ever played. They left the MVC in 1969, two years before you joined. Louisville and North Texas left the conference the same year (1975).

North Texas was a member from 1957 through 1974.

[UNTFan23]

Fouts is a dump

[buff64]

I replied off the top of my head without checking dates.

You're right about West Texas not replacing anyone; they were added in 1971 (and stayed until 1985). You are right about Louisville and Memphis but wrong about Cincinnati. In fact I can't find any record that West Texas and Cincinnati ever played. They left the MVC in 1969, two years before you joined. Louisville and North Texas left the conference the same year (1975).

North Texas was a member from 1957 through 1974.

After I replied to you , I started thinking back and did not remember WT ever playing Cincinnati.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Cincinnati went out first.. then the rest... After West-Texas State and New Mexico State entered or was about to enter the MVC, they opted out. The difficulty and expense of travel to those Western places was an issue. From what I remember ( I am UNT-66) there were also issues in the MVC about the football/basketball situation*... some did not play football and Drake was playing at a lower level. UNT, Louisville, Memphis all left together I think and Fry had hopes of joining the SWC which had nine members and most leagues were going to 10. SMU screwed us on that deal when they convinced TCU and Baylor to vote against us... we needed one more vote to be a SWC member. They did not want competition in the Metroplex from a State School was their argument against us. Our Football teams and basketball teams (under Fry and Blakely) were much better than theirs at the time as well. The SWC had received a wake up call when Houston went in as #9 and won the SWC their first year, I think in both. I don't know if we were welcome in the Metro-conference or not which more of less became CUSA but we did not join if so because of SWC hopes... That is why we older-time grad hate SMU so much... that and all the negative comments they have made about us for years.

---The NCAA changed rules some later and forced us into I-AA along with West-Texas, UT-Arlington and Lamar. Two of those dropped football and WT is now at a low-level.... only we survived the "drop". in status.

*This is why I think the Big East is unstable... that and number of members, too big..

Edited February 26, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[ttunt]

To add to the comments already made Hayden was pushing for SWC membership, but

would have stayed until the MVC athletic directors & presidents took Indiana State and

Southern Illinois. THey voted for these 2 school and Fry had agreement if they added

those two they would add Southern Miss to help the southern schools with football and

travel. The rest stabbed us (Fry) in the back so he wanted to stay in basketball and other

sports, but independent in football. The MVC powers that be wouldn't allow it so he went

totally independent.

[Varsity]

West Texas also dropped football for one season (1991) then resumed as an NCAA Div. II team in the Lone Star Conference.

[letsgiveacheer]

Wasn't New Mexico State an existing member of the Valley also? Although there are a million versions about this, I recall their basketball coach giving the Pit its name in the late 60s.

[island eagle]

Wasn't New Mexico State an existing member of the Valley also? Although there are a million versions about this, I recall their basketball coach giving the Pit its name in the late 60s.

They were independent from 1962-1971, a part of the Missouri Valley Conference from 1972-1982, independent in 1983 and joined the Big West in 1984.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Wasn't New Mexico State an existing member of the Valley also? Although there are a million versions about this, I recall their basketball coach giving the Pit its name in the late 60s.

---I have no idea when the "Pit" or the "Snake Pit" got its name but it was refered by that name in 1964 (my first year at NT) ....which is long before NMSU became a member of the MVC. I understood that it was called that because of the rowdy crowd and the fact that fans practically sat on the opponents bench. They had very little separation from the NT crowd and teams hated to play in Denton, especially week-nights when it was always packed. It was fun and crazy and we were in the best conference in America. [ don't even say the ACC was... they were still all white teams ] The best team was UCLA but the MVC, Houston, and couple of other teams were close. The MVC made the final four most of the 60's decade or until 1972. Memphis lost to UCLA that year. Louisville, Wichita, and Bradley (maybe Drake also) had made the final four and Cincinnatii had won it all twice before UCLA began its run. Unfortunately the system was set up then so that the MVC (Mid-America region) always played the Western team first at the Final-4 which usually meant UCLA and a loss.

[island eagle]

---I have no idea when the "Pit" or the "Snake Pit" got its name but it was refered by that name in 1964 (my first year at NT) ....which is long before NMSU became a member of the MVC. I understood that it was called that because of the rowdy crowd and the fact that fans practically sat on the opponents bench. They had very little separation from the NT crowd and teams hated to play in Denton, especially week-nights when it was always packed. It was fun and crazy and we were in the best conference in America. [ don't even say the ACC was... they were still all white teams ] The best team was UCLA but the MVC, Houston, and couple of other teams were close. The MVC made the final four most of the 60's decade or until 1972. Memphis lost to UCLA that year. Louisville, Wichita, and Bradley (maybe Drake also) had made the final four and Cincinnatii had won it all twice before UCLA began its run. Unfortunately the system was set up then so that the MVC (Mid-America region) always played the Western team first at the Final-4 which usually meant UCLA and a loss.

By far the best (most fun) basketball games I ever saw were in the pit in the 60's. While I like the "Super Pit", it has never had the atmosphere that the packed and noisy pit had.

[Big D]

I BELIEVE IN 1969 WHEN TULSA CAME TO PLAY US AT THE PIT THERE WERE 5 TEAMS OF THE MISSOURI VALLEY CONFERENCE RANKED IN THE

TOP 20. IT WAS IN FEB. AND THERE WAS SNOW ON THE GROUND AND IT WAS ON TV. WE BEAT TULSA 96-92. THE RANKED TEAMS WERE

BRADLEY,LOUISVILLE,DRAKE,WICHITA STATE, AND TULSA (RANKED 9 TH). AT ONE TIME THAT YEAR THERE WERE 6 TEAMS RANKED. THE SIXTH

WAS ST. LOUIS. IT WAS GREAT TO SET IN THE PIT UP AGAINST THE OUT OF BOUNDS LINE AND SCREAM AND HOLLAR. WE RAN A FULL COURT

PRESS, AND I BELIEVE ONLY LOST ONE GAME AT HOME THAT YEAR TO BRADLEY IN OVERTIME BY TWO POINTS. GREAT TIMES AT THE PIT. YOU HAD

TO BE THERE TO APPRECIATE IT. I ONLY WISHED WE HAD CROWDS LIKE THAT NOW.

BIG D

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Five of the top ten at Christmas in 1965-66 were Missouri Valley teams. UCLA, Houston, and future national champ UTEP were three of the others. We kept several in the top ten all year but not as many once conference games started after Christmas and they started defeating each other. Until then only two MVC teams had lost games... NT and Tulsa once to UTEP, the future National Champion of that year. The SWC was nowhere to be found. (Houston was independent at that time)

---People now do not realize how things were at in the 60's and until mid 70's or until Blakely left. Dr. Phil has mentioned going to NT basketball games and enjoying them.

[gksmith]

We dropped out of the Missour Valley Conference because there were too few teams left to continue. Its demise started with the formation of the old Metro basketball conference. Cincinnati, Louisville and finally Memphis had dropped out of the old MVC to go into this powerful basketball conference. When Memphis left, we were left with six teams. Drake wasn't drawing well and they opted to drop out of Division I football. Wichita State dropped their football program totally (and still haven't resumed it). We had picked up New Mexico State and West Texas A&M (I believe to replace Cincinnati and Louisville). Those two, plus Tulsa and North Texas would have been the only football playing members. Hayden Fry thought that we could do better by playing teams closer to home that would draw better with less travel expense. He was also exploring our chances to join the Southwest Conference and thought we had a better chance as an independent.

In 1981 the NCAA changed the requirements for Division 1. Those conferences that had the majority of their members with a stadium of 30,000 and an average attendance of 17,000 were allowed to stay in 1A and the rest went to 1AA. As an independent, we didn't have conference averages to protect us. Chancellor Hurley decided not to spend money to enlarge Fouts (on what was not a sure thing) and the BOR agreed. Al Hurley wanted to build the academics at North Texas instead. I must say that he did a creditable job but he wrecked the athletics program.

Texas Tech had a large number of alumni in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and felt that many of them could not be accomodated at Fouts. For that reason, they would only play us at a large enough stadium to seat their alumni. They did have about 10,000 at Texas Stadium so maybe they were right.

That is pretty much it. I was in High School at the time of all this. All the athletics felt the pinch. NT had a good basketball program that is still recovering some 25 years later with a few bright spots...but nothing like the old Snake Pit days.

As for joining the SWC...I think that was a pipe dream. While there are reports that several schools in the conference wanted NT as a member, at the time I honestly thought they had a snowball's chance in hell of making it.

Nontheless, I had the T-shirt that had like a "Team Photo" of all the SWC mascots with a heading accross the top "Move Over Gang" and the Flying Worm muscling into the picture like a red headed step-child at a family reunion.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

The MVC.

Cincinnatti left in 1969

Memphis left in 1973

Louisville left in 1974

North Texas left in 1974

The Metro-Conference was formed as a "basketball conference" with the above teams (but not us) plus So. Miss and Tulane, and maybe St. Louis and maybe sone more in 1975 or 76.. It pretty much became CUSA when it became a football conference as well.

We went Independent and the SWC membership may have a a stretch (maybe) but we came with one vote of being accepted since we needed 7 of the 9 members to vote for us .... 6 did......, SMU, TCU and Baylor did not. SMU opposed us and convinced the others to vote with them based on the fear that we would be a metroplex area team (state supported as well) and would harm their programs.

The MVC continued to exist as a football league until the end of 1985... there were enough teams to continue (unlike what has been said). .. Tulsa, Wichita, West Texas, New Mexico State, Drake and a few others (Illinois State) were still in in when it folded as a football league after the 85 season.. Wichita State football ended in 1986 and was then independent. The MVC was also forced into I-AA the same time (1982) that we were placed there.

The MVC still exists as a basketball league and three made the NCAA basketball tournament last year.... Bradley, Wichita and So. Illinois. When Larry Bird made the finals with Indiana State, it was a MVC basketball member.... as it is now.

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/index.php This site supports most of what I stated.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

The name "Snake Pit" is attributed to Drake coach Maury John (around 59-60). The roar of the crowd was deafening and there was often an overflow with people lined up behind the benches, in the aisles, and anywhere else that didn't interfere with play. When interviewed by the Dallas press, John likened playing at our gym was akin to being in a snake pit.

One thing about our attempting to get in the SWC, there was some positioning but no vote taken, probably because we knew that we did not have enough support to make it in at that time. As to alignment, the three that I heard that were against us were SMU and TCU as mentioned, but the third was purported to be Arkansas. Their reasoning was that they wanted someone from another state so that they weren't the lone outsider. There was one other member, my source didn't tell me who, that hadn't committed either way but was leaning no. I believe that Baylor, Hayden Fry's alma mater, would have been a yes vote. The only university that publicly advocated our admission that I can recall was the University of Texas.

By the way, not only did Houston win the SWC football title their first time out, they won it three of their first four years.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---One more comment-- at the time Cincinatti, Memphis and Louisville left the MVC... the NCAA basketball rules only allowed one conference member to enter the post season tournament, the league champion. As a result sometimes some Top-10 teams were not even allowed to play because they were the second best in their conference. . There was an advantage to being independent in basketball for a while since several independents were chosen. ..later the rules permitted a maximum of two per conference.... which we got burned on after we were independent and should have been picked (23-4 ?) but a #2 team was taken instead of us even though a regional was held in Denton.

---At that time it was only a 18 or 24 team tournament, later 32 teams and two per conference allowed ... then it later became 64 teams as it is now.

Edited February 27, 2007 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66