Jetblue Meltdown

[JayDub]

Since I've had a couple of people ask me what my thoughts were on the whole JetBlue fiasco, I figured I'd just post the reply I sent to ElPasoEagle (and then some) here...

All in all, it was just a combination of events that were the result of poor planning, poor decision making, and lack of backup from the New York Port Authority.

They really wanted to try to keep their operation going, albeit way behind, but in the Flight Control end of our business (which is what I do, contrary to the popular belief that I'm an Air Traffic Controller), sometimes you just have to make a decision to pack up, get the aircraft the hell out of there, and try again tomorrow. That's what we did for the Denver mess. We have a huge operation in Denver as United Express and we took it in the rear as far as cancellations...we canceled more than 2,000 flights over the course of those separate Denver nightmares. However, it was the necessary evil. In JetBlue's case...JFK is already notoriously delayed...tack on the weather problems and an airport authority that wasn't prepared for the weather and you have mass failure.

At least half the blame, if not more, falls on the JFK airport authority...yet they're getting off scott-free in the media. They didn't have the resources to keep the ramp areas and taxiways clear of ice...just like Denver over Christmas. Don't be surprised if some lawsuits start flying at both airports over all of this. However, in Denver, the snow was falling too fast to be manageable. At JFK this past week, the ice was at least MANAGEABLE. When an airline pays out tens of millions of dollars out to an airport in landing fees and terminal rent, the airport's part of the deal is to keep the facility usable. While the airport can't be expected to keep FLIGHT operations going, they should be held accountable for not keeping the ramp and taxiways clear for ground movement. Had there not been ridiculous amounts of ice on those surfaces (which a little TypeIV deicing fluid would have knocked out in no time...at least temporarily), JetBlue would have been able to move some airplanes off the gates and get those passengers off those airplanes that had been sitting for 8+ hours.

Alot of this stuff about the airlines holding them hostage has been blown out of proportion by a general flying public that is even less knowledgeable than they used to be. The airline's primary responsibility is safety of the passenger. If that means you have to sit in an airplane for a little while longer than you want, it is what it is. Otherwise, someone accidentally gets hurt in the process of getting people off an airplane in the ice...and next thing you know, they lawsuits are flying. Unfortunately, due to our lovely Department of Homeland Security...when there is no gate available to deplane passengers...it is much harder to get people off airplanes without them being within a certain area of the Aircraft Operations Area. Otherwise the TSA throws a damn fit and tries to fine the airlines for security breaches. If the tarmac is too icy and braking action is called "NIL", then the planes can't move.

People throw fits when we have flight delays due to weather, but what they fail to realize is the fact that we have to follow an insane amount of regulations...as well as company regs regarding safety of flight. Air travel is safer than it has ever been because of these types of regulations. However, there are many of the rules we have to follow that are nothing more than government bullcrap. In the eyes of airline passengers, the airlines will never do anything right. They bitch if we're early, the bitch if we're late, they bitched when the airlines served food, they now bitch that we don't serve any food. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Finally, JetBlue has been the media darlings for so long. Neeleman is a charasmatic CEO and the media has eaten up his every move. As we all know, however, is that the media LOVES to report failure...especially the failure of those who are good at what they do. JetBlue's a good airline...they were trying to do the right thing by not canceling a bunch of flights and stranding people...but they just couldn't get it done. And the media has really blown it up and ripped them to shreds.

So, in the words of the good folks in Herndon, VA on their planning telcons..."I think that's it for us, let's open it up for customer comments or questions"....

[GBarksdale]

Good point about the insane regulations. Flying is such a major hassle-- and uncomfortable -- now, and incidents like this only make train travel look more attractive.

Fact is, passengers should not be forced to sit in an overcrowded, stifling plane for hours on end. They should be off-loaded from the plane after an hour or so and taken back to the terminal. For the life of me, I don't see how that breaches security.

[Eagle1855]

Good point about the insane regulations. Flying is such a major hassle-- and uncomfortable -- now, and incidents like this only make train travel look more attractive.

I really wish we would adopt a more European-style of travel and invest in the rail systems. Although I don't have any idea what the cost benefit (if any) of running such an operation. It would be nice to be able to take a high speed train from Houston to Dallas or Dallas to Austin without having to deal with the hassle that is flying, or the total beating it is to drive I-45 or I-35. Cut down on the cars on the road, which would also make all the global warming dorks happy. Everyone wins.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Eagle1855

[GBarksdale]

I really wish we would adopt a more European-style of travel and invest in the rail systems. Although I don't have any idea what the cost benefit (if any) of running such an operation. It would be nice to be able to take a high speed train from Houston to Dallas or Dallas to Austin without having to deal with the hassle that is flying, or the total beating it is to drive I-45 or I-35. Cut down on the cars on the road, which would also make all the global warming dorks happy. Everyone wins.

yeah, one of the few things I liked about europe was the train system. Heavily subsidized, but very efficient. We have a national/regional train system -- amtrak. Unfortunately, it loses money and depends on govt subsidies. But given the chance, I would much rather take the train from DC to Texas when I go home for visits. The kicker is my wife agrees in principle, but would not agree to a multi-day travel time.

[Guest JohnDenver]

US is so much bigger than Europe. Train systems don't quite pack the same punch. There is a train system that people use from Philly --> NYC --> Boston --> Baltimore --> DC. That whole area the train does well enough.

I have looked into taking the train on vacations, but when it boils down to it... HELL NO. I don't like multi day trips. I don't have long enough vacations to take 2 days to get to Denver and then 2 days to get back. That is crazy.

[Eagle1855]

I have looked into taking the train on vacations, but when it boils down to it... HELL NO. I don't like multi day trips. I don't have long enough vacations to take 2 days to get to Denver and then 2 days to get back. That is crazy.

Oh I agree... but Im thinking more of within the state of texas, or from Texas to one of the bordering states. That could be done with relative ease in a day and you wouldnt have to hassle with driving or flying.

[Quoner]

Good point about the insane regulations. Flying is such a major hassle-- and uncomfortable -- now, and incidents like this only make train travel look more attractive.

Fact is, passengers should not be forced to sit in an overcrowded, stifling plane for hours on end. They should be off-loaded from the plane after an hour or so and taken back to the terminal. For the life of me, I don't see how that breaches security.

I agree to a point, but an hour or so is too short. Would you rather fight through 2 hours and get there, or be forced to get off quickly, find a place to stay, and coordinate the process all over again? I think 3-4 hours is a decent endline, but I think just as many people would be pissed if they were constantly deplaned - not to mention how that could screw up a flight system.

[JayDub]

As far as getting out of the gate and then having to wait 2 hours to take off...there are TONS of factors that cause delays like that. Winds at the departure airport...like at DFW when the winds are so hard out of the west, they shut down to 2 runways...or a ground stop at the arrival airport that went into effect after you pushed from the gate (passengers never believe it, but this truly does happen alot).

When a groundstop goes into effect, the FAA gives us an "expiration time" for the stop and a "Probability Of Extension". If the POE is "Low" or "Medium", then we'll leave the bird sitting out there waiting to takeoff...usually because the FAA gives a "highball" estimate on these stops and they tend to end earlier than they tell us it will last. Now, do you want to be taxiing back to the gate, find out you can take off, and have to get back in the takeoff line...risking the possibility of getting caught in another stop?

If the flying public knew half the rules, regs, and ATC issues that cause delays...they would shit a brick wondering how anything flies at all.

Airlines - We're Damned If We Do, We're Damned If We Don't.

This is fun...finally talking something I know. Fire me some questions if you want to know the who's, what's, when's, where's, and why's of the airlines...

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I really wish we would adopt a more European-style of travel and invest in the rail systems. Although I don't have any idea what the cost benefit (if any) of running such an operation. It would be nice to be able to take a high speed train from Houston to Dallas or Dallas to Austin without having to deal with the hassle that is flying, or the total beating it is to drive I-45 or I-35. Cut down on the cars on the road, which would also make all the global warming dorks happy. Everyone wins.

---I have been in Europe several times... Trains travel works well there partially because once you get to a city there are subways, trolley systems, and other good ground transportation available to go about anywhere you want to go.. That usually is not the case here.... Once to get to a city (Dallas is bad) you don't have a extremely good in-city transportation system that runs every few minutes. In Chicago, New York, and San Fran it is easy to get to basebasll/football stadiums and to museums... In Dallas that doesn't exist and many other towns are not much better.

[LongJim]

This is fun...finally talking something I know. Fire me some questions if you want to know the who's, what's, when's, where's, and why's of the airlines...

Are modern jets designed to be able to fly with less than the full complement of engines actually working? A rough estimate of how often this happens? How often are the seats cleaned? What is that smell?

[JayDub]

Are modern jets designed to be able to fly with less than the full complement of engines actually working? A rough estimate of how often this happens?

Of course...even the props can fly with an engine out. However, if an engine goes out there are procedures to be followed. On all of our flights, we have an "engine out procedure" for takeoff and for enroute operatations. If the engine goes out on takeoff or on takeoff climb, they follow the certain procedure, get into a holding pattern, and run through the checklists before landing at the "nearest suitable airport".

That said, if one goes out enroute, it depends on where they are in the flight. We plan the flight to be able to make it all the way to the destination if that were to be the ONLY suitable airport. If they are at a point that is prior to "waypoint A", they can make it all the way back to the origination airport without having to climb over any major terrain such as the mountains. If they are beyond "waypoint A", they can make it to the destination without any terrain clearance issues. (All of this is from memory from ground school a few months ago...Standard Operating Procedures and Practices would be consulted if this were to actually happen.)

If the aircraft has 3 or more engines, and they lose one , the regs state that they can proceed if the captain deems the continuation of flight to be safe. This happened last year when a British Airways 747 took off out of LAX headed for Heathrow, lost one of the four engines, and continued all the way to London on 3. The FAA threw a fit saying, "this was a safety of flight issue", but British countered their argument with the FAA's own regulations...stating that the captain, British Airways Dispatch and Maintenance Control, and the higher ups all deemed the continuation of flight to be safe on 3 engines.

As for 2 engined aircraft...they must land at the nearest suitable airport upon loss of an engine, despite the aircraft's ability to fly a full payload on one. It's a good thing they can fly on one...as evidenced by this America West/US Airways (operated by Mesa Airlines) regional flight out of Denver a few weeks ago.

It happens every now and again, but usually any engine issues are caught on the run-up prior to takeoff.

How often are the seats cleaned?

Not all that often.

*gasp* Unbelievable, I know.

The cushion covers are changed as needed...but that's usually only when they are soiled. The cushions and covers are all changed during heavy maintenance checks.

I've personally changed some really nasty seat cushions. I've also cleaned vomit out of the lav sinks...the sickness bags are there for a reason...the main ones being not clogging the sinks with that ManchuWok you got in the terminal and not depositing regurgitated orange chicken in the carpet and seats.

[soapbox]If you ever want to see how disgusting human beings are...clean an overnighting 737 after it has flown 7 legs in a day. Not only are people disgusting, but they have absolutely no respect for the 30+ million dollar aircraft they are sitting on. Sure, the seats are uncomfortable in most 737 coach classes, but that doesn't give you a license to let your kids draw all over the tray tables in crayon and leave every bit of trash you've collected throughout the day in the seatback pocket when the flight attendants have gone through the cabin 4 times asking for your trash.[/soapbox]

What is that smell?

Probably, the 300 lb. woman with four teeth and severe body odor that would make you swear she was hiding (and probably is) a 3 year old sandwich in her fat rolls, using 2 seatbelt extensions, that just dropped $39 on that flight to visit Aunt Mabel. (I know, I just punched my ticket)

Keep'em coming...

Edited February 22, 2007 by JayDub

[LongJim]

Awesome thread, JD.

A couple of other questions (maybe you can answer): What are the trickiest airports for a commercial pilot to make a landing/takeoff? I thought Salt Lake City was a nail-biter because of the mountains, but are there certain airports where pilots have to use their skills more than others?

[Quoner]

[soapbox]If you ever want to see how disgusting human beings are...clean an overnighting 737 after it has flown 7 legs in a day. Not only are people disgusting, but they have absolutely no respect for the 30+ million dollar aircraft they are sitting on. Sure, the seats are uncomfortable in most 737 coach classes, but that doesn't give you a license to let your kids draw all over the tray tables in crayon and leave every bit of trash you've collected throughout the day in the seatback pocket when the flight attendants have gone through the cabin 4 times asking for your trash.[/soapbox]

Probably, the 300 lb. woman with four teeth and severe body odor that would make you swear she was hiding (and probably is) a 3 year old sandwich in her fat rolls, using 2 seatbelt extensions, that just dropped $39 on that flight to visit Aunt Mabel. (I know, I just punched my ticket)

Keep'em coming...

I spent my Tuesday out at an unnamed maintenance base for a major american airline and walked through three on-going heavy checks for a few wide-bodies. The crap on the floors and under the seats was amazing. Someone apparently went to town on fun-sized bags of M&Ms and left a pile of like 30 wrappers under the seats. The restrooms didn't seem dirty - mostly just the cattle-cabin.

Maybe if people stopped throwing crap everywhere like it was their personal trash can there wouldn't be squirrels stowing away onthe damn things.

And hey, at least you can always make the fat woman buy 2 seats - Passenger of Size policy rules!

[JayDub]

A couple of other questions (maybe you can answer): What are the trickiest airports for a commercial pilot to make a landing/takeoff? I thought Salt Lake City was a nail-biter because of the mountains, but are there certain airports where pilots have to use their skills more than others?

Aspen, CO and Jackson Hole. WY come to mind immediately. They require special aircrew qualifications. Aspen's minimums are ridiculously high due to being surrounded by the mountains...and probably requires the most skill. Jackson can be a pain in our ass scheduling-wise every weekend when Tricky Dick Cheney decides to drop his 757 in there. I plan on jumpseating to Aspen just to see the approach next month...should be interesting.

We also service a bunch of small airports with high approach visibility and ceiling minimums due to the lack of instrument landing systems. We serve an airport in Idaho that, when the ceiling is below 1900 feet and the visibility is below 1 1/4 miles, we just can't get in. The problem is, the weather takes a dump there very easily and very often, so the poor little station we have about 60 miles away has to handle more diversions than any other airport of ours. Not only do they have to handle their own passengers, but they have to handle the other airport's passengers as well.

I've not heard many complaints about SLC (now you see why it drives me nuts when people list Southlake as SLC...my brain automatically prcoesses it as Salt Lake City) as far as being tricky. ATC does a great job keeping the arrival pattern nice and tight. Perhaps it is nerve wracking and no one complains...I might just take a hop to SLC tomorrow and get back to you on that.

[LongJim]

A couple more and I'll stop:

At what point (if any) does the originating air traffic guy 'hand off' the flight to someone else? IE: If I take a flight to Cancun from DFW, when does Mexico's flight controller guy say: "Bienvenidos a Cancun. Usted ahora es mi responsabilidad."?

Are there countries/out of USA destinations that pilots have more confidence in re: ground crew/tower guys, etc., than others, or are they pretty much similar as far as ability?

[JayDub]

A couple more and I'll stop:

At what point (if any) does the originating air traffic guy 'hand off' the flight to someone else? IE: If I take a flight to Cancun from DFW, when does Mexico's flight controller guy say: "Bienvenidos a Cancun. Usted ahora es mi responsabilidad."?

Are there countries/out of USA destinations that pilots have more confidence in re: ground crew/tower guys, etc., than others, or are they pretty much similar as far as ability?

Some of my info here may be a little inaccurate since, although I deal with ATC guys alot on the phone, I'm not an air traffic controller.

I know the domestic handoffs are based on sectors of center airspace (US airspace is controlled by "centers"...DFW falls into Fort Worth Center airspace that controls almost the entire northern half of Texas, most of Southern half of Oklahoma including OKC, southwest Arkansas, northwest Louisiana and a small chunk of eastern New Mexico). A handoff usually happens one minute prior to entering the new sector.

When you file a flight plan across the US, you have to list at least one waypoint in each center. Even if you're flying directly straight across the US from LAX to Charlston, SC and following a GPS map, you have to list at least one point in each of Los Angeles Center, Albequerque Center, Fort Worth Center, Memphis Center, Atlanta Center, and Jacksonville Center. And judging from my map here, you'll talk to AT LEAST 23 different sector controllers over the course of the flight...

I'm not entirely familiar with international ops yet, so I won't even venture to guess how that works.

[Eagle1855]

Aspen, CO and Jackson Hole. WY come to mind immediately. They require special aircrew qualifications. Aspen's minimums are ridiculously high due to being surrounded by the mountains...and probably requires the most skill.

I believe it. I was in Vail last year and that flight looked like it would have been a higher difficulty land than many. They sent the plane we were waiting on to Durango to re fuel because they had tried to land several times and couldnt (due to snow and wind). They finally got it in but I was less than confident in us making it back to Denver at that point (we did make it, by the way).

[FirefightnRick]

Department of Homeland Security, FAA, NTSB..... Damn American federal regulations! WHO NEEDS THEM ANYWAYS????????

Rick

[NT80]

As far as getting out of the gate and then having to wait 2 hours to take off...there are TONS of factors that cause delays like that. Winds at the departure airport...like at DFW when the winds are so hard out of the west, they shut down to 2 runways...or a ground stop at the arrival airport that went into effect after you pushed from the gate (passengers never believe it, but this truly does happen alot).

When a groundstop goes into effect, the FAA gives us an "expiration time" for the stop and a "Probability Of Extension". If the POE is "Low" or "Medium", then we'll leave the bird sitting out there waiting to takeoff...usually because the FAA gives a "highball" estimate on these stops and they tend to end earlier than they tell us it will last. Now, do you want to be taxiing back to the gate, find out you can take off, and have to get back in the takeoff line...risking the possibility of getting caught in another stop?

If the flying public knew half the rules, regs, and ATC issues that cause delays...they would shit a brick wondering how anything flies at all.

Airlines - We're Damned If We Do, We're Damned If We Don't.

This is fun...finally talking something I know. Fire me some questions if you want to know the who's, what's, when's, where's, and why's of the airlines...

There are many factors in aircraft delays involving weather. With freezing precipitation, this usually involves de-icing an aircraft before it can depart. With some forms of freezing precip, airlines cannot de-ice them and they cannot depart until it stops. In de-icing, an aircraft taxies to a de-icing station, usually an out-of-the way ramp area. This process to de-ice takes from 20-30 minutes per aircraft, depending on size of the plane. Then, there is limited time in which the plane must takeoff or it will need de-iced again, usually less than an hour depending on the de-ice mixture.

That's only the mess at the departure airport ramp. Then there are delays for snow removal from taxiways and runways, and closed or non-priority runways that restrict arrival/departure rates. FAA's traffic management unit is quick to stop departure traffic if an arrival airport has weather problems and restricted arrival rates. Many times airlines get the delay scoop before the tower controllers do. Sometimes it's a circus to make it all work.

[JayDub]

Department of Homeland Security, FAA, NTSB..... Damn American federal regulations! WHO NEEDS THEM ANYWAYS????????

Rick

The regulations absolutely make us safer. The point I was making is that the general public has no clue the amount of fiery hoops you have to jump through just to get a flight off the ground...or, in JetBlue's case, back to the gate.

There are many factors in aircraft delays involving weather. With freezing precipitation, this usually involves de-icing an aircraft before it can depart. With some forms of freezing precip, airlines cannot de-ice them and they cannot depart until it stops. In de-icing, an aircraft taxies to a de-icing station, usually an out-of-the way ramp area. This process to de-ice takes from 20-30 minutes per aircraft, depending on size of the plane. Then, there is limited time in which the plane must takeoff or it will need de-iced again, usually less than an hour depending on the de-ice mixture.

That's only the mess at the departure airport ramp. Then there are delays for snow removal from taxiways and runways, and closed or non-priority runways that restrict arrival/departure rates. FAA's traffic management unit is quick to stop departure traffic if an arrival airport has weather problems and restricted arrival rates. Many times airlines get the delay scoop before the tower controllers do. Sometimes it's a circus to make it all work.

Perfectly explained.

A circus is an understatement on some days.

Edited February 24, 2007 by JayDub

[UNT_92_Fan]

I would just like to chime in and say...Jaydub knows way too mucha bout this and desperately needs a woman...

[Texas Stranger]

SLC's main runways are parallel to the Wasatch Range, so they don't have to do any sort of aggressive takeoff/landings.

On Saturday, I was flying home from my cruise and got stranded at my connection point in Tampa (I was on AA) when DFW shut down. I immediately asked the AA person at the counter if Continental was still flying to IAH. Yep, they were. I had them re-book me on a Continental flight to Bush, and I was barely able to reserve a rental car to drive up to DFW. About 30 minutes after I got finished transferring my flight, there was a mad rush of folks from the AA counter to the Continental counter as they finally figured it out for themselves how to get to Texas. Lesson: learn where each airline hubs.

The really corny thing is that I was humming the 'Amazing Race' theme song in my head as I was hustling thru the Tampa airport beating the crowds.

[JayDub]

SLC's main runways are parallel to the Wasatch Range, so they don't have to do any sort of aggressive takeoff/landings.

On Saturday, I was flying home from my cruise and got stranded at my connection point in Tampa (I was on AA) when DFW shut down. I immediately asked the AA person at the counter if Continental was still flying to IAH. Yep, they were. I had them re-book me on a Continental flight to Bush, and I was barely able to reserve a rental car to drive up to DFW. About 30 minutes after I got finished transferring my flight, there was a mad rush of folks from the AA counter to the Continental counter as they finally figured it out for themselves how to get to Texas. Lesson: learn where each airline hubs.

The really corny thing is that I was humming the 'Amazing Race' theme song in my head as I was hustling thru the Tampa airport beating the crowds.

You are correct on SLC...I should have made that a little more clear. They have 2 16/34's, a 17/35, and a little used 14/32.

Nice one on the reroute! Knowing hubs and focus city locations have saved my butt many a time trying to get home. I'll never forget my Boston-Chicago Midway-Minneapolis-Atlanta-DFW routing just to get home from a Red Sox game.

If it tells you anything about how bad DFW was the other day...under normal operations they can land about 120 planes an hour and they were down to accepting 10 planes an hour. When they have to make it a straight 31R/31L operation, the rates go down significantly (and the folks in Southlake get the scare of the lives when the once daily heavies of British Airways 777 to Gatwick and the Lufthansa A340 for Frankfurt make extremely low passes over their part of town). The taxi delays become hours just getting planes in and out.

I can remember a 31 operation day...having a flight out there for 3 hours already when I came on shift and no one told me it was out there when I relieved them. 2 hours into shift we get a call from that flight...telling us they got to the front of the line, but need to come back for gas, to be re-catered, and will need 2 more liquor kits than the norm and twice the beer (the captain was comping the booze for the delay...I asked him later why he would do that figuring the booze would agitate some...Genius move, really...give everyone that wants one 2-3 drinks and turn up the cabin temp a little...everyone falls asleep). Guess it's a good thing JetBlue doesn't fly DFW. They'd be paying out like hell on those days.

I would just like to chime in and say...Jaydub knows way too mucha bout this and desperately needs a woman...

I would have to agree.

Edited February 26, 2007 by JayDub

[GreenBat]

Hell Jaydub could be clueless on this situation and he'd STILL NEED A WOMAN

[UNT_92_Fan]

Burn