How Many Think It Is Time To Revisit The Idea Of The Wac?

[LoveMG]

[quote name='Daddy Dumpsalot' post='256034' date='Jan 19 2007, 02:30 PM']

A few questions as I have not been here 6 months:

gee, who could tell?

Edited January 19, 2007 by LoveMG

[NT80]

Even still...are we going to have to wait for the SBC to fold in order to move conferences?

We have no invites at this time and we are not going independent. CUSA is the next opening we want. You don't like it?...Take it up with the AD. Nobody on this board can make that decision or an opening in another conference happen, deal with it; and your ranting won't change conferences. I don't care much for the SBC either, but the WAC costs too much with no closer rivals, got alot of $$ do ya? BTW, the Big12 is full also at the moment.

[Green Mean]

We have no invites at this time and we are not going independent. CUSA is the next opening we want. You don't like it?...Take it up with the AD. Nobody on this board can make that decision or an opening in another conference happen, deal with it; and your ranting won't change conferences. I don't care much for the SBC either, but the WAC costs too much with no closer rivals, got alot of $$ do ya? BTW, the Big12 is full also at the moment.

You are right to a certain extent NT80 but ONLY waiting for a spot in CUSA for the next window of opportunity does not sound good and promising and motivating. This is what I said in one of the earlier pages on this thread and hopefully you can see what a lot of us are trying to say.

I frankly dont understand the logic of turning down the WAC was a good thing. Thats why NT athletics is where it is today because of people like them. To think the SBC is even in the same breath as the WAC or CUSA is absolutely rediculous....and with NT fans saying that we probably have very dumb fans. If you want to make a push for athletics you have to be a leader...not a follower. Sure travel costs would have gone up etc etc etc but here we want to spend 60 million dollars on a stadium of 30K-60K that we only avg 16K/per game and yet we dont want to spend an extra half a million dollars or so a year and travel and play valuable opponents and benefit from being in a better conference. Pure stupidity by MANY NT fans I tell you.

[Cerebus]

A few questions as I have not been here 6 months:

Feel free to use the search function. Alot of these topics have been discussed, to death.

1. Why was that the right thing? What possibly benefits have come from it?

Distance and time zones.

Travel costs vs league revenue is a *near* wash, but it is still a negative. (The figures people used for LaTech were before the old EWAC broke up). HOWEVER, with three schools in La and one in Arkansas, SBC fan travel is easiesr. Travelling fans is one of the ways to build intrest and rivalries.

The WAC was given an option, to form an EWAC out of SBC schools to pair with La Tech. Several WAC schools were not intrested, and this never came to fruition.

Media coverage, kick off times are much better with the SBC than WAC. And by media coverage I mean reporting in local papers and newscasts.

Several teams in the WAC are much better targets for the BCS conferences than any team in the SBC, that makes it more unstable. The WAC will be cherry picked in the near future.

2. Why do we want in the CUSA, over other conferences?

Do you expect us to jump to the Big12? Our current athletic department isn't going to go to a BCS conference. That leaves the non BCS. WAC and MWS have distance and time zone issues. MAC is to far north. That leaces SBC, CUSA and Indy. CUSA is the clear winner there. We tried really hard to get into CUSA last expansion, but UTEP bear us with a larger fanbase. CUSA fits us geographically.

No one is arguing but still no one has been able to answer those questions. This should be a moot point as we all agree the SBC sucks and WAC, CUSA, MWC are much much better, therefore change conferences. Case closed, no more 'arguing'. Right!?

I hope I answered your questions. Also, stating something doesn't mean you proved it. The sun is blue, everyone knows it. The teams in the WAC may be better FOOTBALL teams than the ones in the SBC, but that is a very small part of the equation.

You are misunderstanding the question. The question isn't "who has better football teams", its "which conference is a better fit for North Texas?"

[Cerebus]

Even still...are we going to have to wait for the SBC to fold in order to move conferences?

Now that the NCAA Attendence Rules have been given no bite, the SBC is a good conference for North Texas. No teams are going to drop to 1AA, and if anyone is going to get cherry picked out of it, our program is probably the top choice.

[badgerwolf]

All it takes is Boise State to leave the WAC -- for the MWC -- and all of a sudden WAC is WAY worse than the SBC. And then you can't say that we shouldn't even mentioned in the same breath.

I think everyone around these parts is waiting patiently for the CUSA invite.

An MWC fan's perspective for your discussion; not mine, but from the MWC Board:

I think in the long run it was good for the texas teams to go to CUSA. Boise and fresno will be MWC members within five years (give or take) This will lead to UC Davis and/or Sac st. to fill their spots. CUSA is at least stable, even when the big east takes either ECU/Memphis/UCF or all three they can still have a nice regional 10 team league . . .

[Cerebus]

CMJ is right, those Pre Rick V numbers are not reality based.

I have the box score for the 2000 NMSU game, and the official attendence was 15 or 16k.

I can promise you I was there with about 800 of my closest friends. 1000 at the very most, if you count the officials and press box

[Green Mean]

An MWC fan's perspective for your discussion; not mine, but from the MWC Board:

I think in the long run it was good for the texas teams to go to CUSA. Boise and fresno will be MWC members within five years (give or take) This will lead to UC Davis and/or Sac st. to fill their spots. CUSA is at least stable, even when the big east takes either ECU/Memphis/UCF or all three they can still have a nice regional 10 team league . . .

I dont think anyone is saying they dont want to be in CUSA....but why make that our only and last option? For the time being we have to advance and better ourselves and IMHO the WAC is where we should be right now....DANGIT we should be reeping SOME OR ANY kind of benefit for Boise State's Fiesta Bowl Win. Thats all what we are trying to say. While we are waiting patiently it quite seems that everyone is progressing and getting ahead of NT. As far as the SBC is concerned i'm not going to lie that yes after this year I do respect Troy, MTSU, and even Arkansas State...Why you may ask? Because like UNT those schools have some potential in the future. Apart from those 3 teams every other team in the SBC is CRAP CRAPITY CRAP....Yes you read it right....CRAP CRAPITY CRAP....well football wise atleast. I think WKU is good in basketball....so i give WKU the benefit of the doubt and a runners up.

[Cerebus]

I dont think anyone is saying they dont want to be in CUSA....but why make that our only and last option?

2. Why do we want in the CUSA, over other conferences?

Do you expect us to jump to the Big12? Our current athletic department isn't going to go to a BCS conference. That leaves the non BCS. WAC and MWS have distance and time zone issues. MAC is to far north. That leaces SBC, CUSA and Indy. CUSA is the clear winner there. We tried really hard to get into CUSA last expansion, but UTEP bear us with a larger fanbase. CUSA fits us geographically.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

We have no invites at this time and we are not going independent. CUSA is the next opening we want. You don't like it?...Take it up with the AD. Nobody on this board can make that decision or an opening in another conference happen, deal with it; and your ranting won't change conferences. I don't care much for the SBC either, but the WAC costs too much with no closer rivals, got alot of $$ do ya? BTW, the Big12 is full also at the moment.

And if the Big 12 wasnt full....we for SURE wouldnt be up for a spot in it....I guarantee you that.

[CMJ]

Ignoring our points, and telling a long time well respected member to get lost. Wow, you'll make a great impression here.

[Green Mean]

Ignoring our points, and telling a long time well respected member to get lost. Wow, you'll make a great impression here.

I hope i'm not doing anything you've written above. From my side i'm just expressing my opinion cuz frankly we ALL have one thing in common....we bleed green and we are passion about NT athletics. To be honest almost everyone on this site has valid points...I just believe in my valid points a little more thats all

[CMJ]

I refering to someone else.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

Travel costs vs league revenue is a *near* wash, but it is still a negative.

A near wash. How on earth do you know that? Truth is you, nor I, nor anyone else knows what the revenue increase would be or even what he costs would be. That excuse has been way played out.

Travelling fans is one of the ways to build intrest and rivalries.

This shouldn't even be address because we all know that no one EVER goes to watch FIU, FAU, ULL. Why? Because no one wants to travel to watch us play no name, crappy teams.

Media coverage, kick off times are much better with the SBC than WAC. And by media coverage I mean reporting in local papers and newscasts.

Media coverage, I have been to 1 UNT that was filmed on ESPN 2. ONE. 'Reporting in local papers and newscasts'? What are you talking about. What difference would it make if we were in a different conference or the SBC?

I do agree that the kickoff times are better. But the only ones concerned with that are the people going to the games and these days aren't many.

Several teams in the WAC are much better targets for the BCS conferences than any team in the SBC, that makes it more unstable. The WAC will be cherry picked in the near future.

If the WAC gets 'cherry picked' in the near future, then right after that the CUSA and then the SBC will also get 'cherry picked'. The question is whether or not we will be one of the chosen. Oh wait we had the opp. a few years ago and chose not to. And now our football program is much better....or is it worse now?

WAC and MWS have distance and time zone issues. MAC is to far north. That leaces SBC, CUSA and Indy. CUSA is the clear winner there. We tried really hard to get into CUSA last expansion, but UTEP bear us with a larger fanbase. CUSA fits us geographically.

You know if Boise st had this same attitude they prob. wouldn't be where they are now huh...I'm not afraid to travel to watch a better game. We have time zone issues with our conference now Florida, Tenn...etc.

I hope I answered your questions. Also, stating something doesn't mean you proved it. The sun is blue, everyone knows it. The teams in the WAC may be better FOOTBALL teams than the ones in the SBC, but that is a very small part of the equation.

So pretty much the only reason is increased travel costs.

The idea becomes where do you want to see UNT in the very near future? Stuck playing no name SBC schools or playing schools people have heard of.

You are misunderstanding the question. The question isn't "who has better football teams", its "which conference is a better fit for North Texas?"

A better fit for UNT fans, future, alumni or a better fit your wallet and time to travel?

The question is 'who has better football program', which leads to better football teams, which leads to better competition, which leads to more recognition, which leads to increased attendance (games and school), which leads to more school spirit, which leads to a better name for UNT alumni, which leads to better jobs, which leads to more money for athletics........This is the cycle we need to get into.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

Ignoring our points, and telling a long time well respected member to get lost. Wow, you'll make a great impression here.

I appologize. Im not ignoring your points. But I feel like youre points are.......not valid

[foutsrouts]

Let us not forget the possibility of the PAC-10 expanding from the MWC/WAC for playoff purposes, the MWC expanding from the top tier of the WAC for playoff purposes, and the remaining WAC members (our former Belt/Big West mates) being left out in the cold. I guess you could argue that if we were in the WAC we could possibly be part of that MWC expansion as the Froggies traveling partner, but I think that's probably unlikely at this point. I would love to throw caution to the wind and beg the WAC for admission TODAY, but the prudent move at this point is probably to see what happens over the next year or two. Let's just try and win some games over the next couple of years and maybe lady luck will finally land in our corner. Enough of this thread for me.

[CMJ]

Ummm, you jump on the "oh hey our attendence was 17K" thing that was posted. Did you check out Rick Yeatts's site? Did you see Cerebus back me up. Ask FFR. Ask many of us on the board. Probably about half the attendence at that NMSU game are posters here...it was THAT small. I was a student at the time, and there were whole sections empty.

The BW bled us dry. Who were some our conference mates? Boise State, Idaho, Nevada to name a few. You want to see what playing in a geographically out of whack league can do to you check out Idaho. In the Big West they were feared. In the Sunbelt against schools that were many, many miles away they nearly wasted away until the WAC gave'm a life raft.

[Cowtown]

Some History...(more to come soon)

From Arkstfan Nov 2005

Well Idaho, NMSU, and USU who needed to be in a regional league have paid $750,000 and watched their attendance fall from where it was in the Sun Belt.

One of the most knowledgeable La.Tech posters has broken down La.Tech's financial situation and said with no reservation that in two more years La.Tech will no longer be able to afford membership in the WAC. The costs have become so bad that last year they had to pass the hat on the website to get enough money to send the tennis team to a tournament in El Paso. That was while the WAC money was good because UTEP, SMU, Rice, and Tulsa weren't taking a share and while Tech had conference trips to Tulsa, Dallas, and Houston.

Bitch and moan about the Sun Belt being unworthy of your greatness and aspirations but your administration needed only to look at the public documents regarding Tech's financial health to make the decision that WAC membership would be potentially fatal to the entire athletic program.

UNT has spent more on the athletic complex alone than Tech has spent on all facilities combined while in the WAC.

They lost their bowl game in San Jose because it never drew enough fans to be remotely viable. The NCAA nearly pulled their charter three years in a row because they couldn't post the letter of credit by the deadline, the NCAA finally gave up and pulled the plug and there are rumors that not every creditor got paid fully. Scoff at the New Orleans Bowl but it is financially viable and local ticket sales in Lafayette are ahead of the same time in New Orleans. The New Orleans Bowl made it despite ACTIVE work by the Sugar Bowl to discourage local business support of the game.

Now WAC teams are left with a trip to Hawaii if Hawaii isn't eligible or a trip to warm and sunny Boise.

The Sun Belt will match the WAC in bowl berths probably in 2007 but no later than 2008.

[badgerwolf]

Another thing to consider is the WAC Strategic Plan; below is the concern of one La Tech fan:

And in 50 years, where will we stand?!?!?! I can assure you it will not be in the same conversation with Boise, Fresno and Hawaii, not even with other land grant institutions like NMSU, Idaho and Utah State. The WAC strategic plan, if it means anything, will weed us completely out of the picture long before then, perhaps a lot sooner than any of us would like to admit to.

Boise's bowl bonanza is just another band-aid on a scrape that grows larger by the year. It does nothing to fix the real problems in Ruston -- which I think a lot of us agree with.

While I can buy that the Belt is not ideal, based on where we've been and what we've accomplished, I think it may be very, very reasonable with where I fear we are headed. Actually what I really fear is a fate much worse than the Belt.

Read the WAC strategic plan = that ain't us, folks! Sorry, but facts are facts, and someone smarter than me is going to have to explain how we will meet these expectations. Business as usual in Ruston will likely mean a new conference affiliation, and it won't be by our choosing.

I can agree with the premise that the WAC isn't the problem, but it's not the solution either.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

I appologize. Im not ignoring your points. But I feel like youre points are.......not valid

Sorry, I couldnt finish I had to leave work.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

Some History...(more to come soon)

From Arkstfan Nov 2005

Well Idaho, NMSU, and USU who needed to be in a regional league have paid $750,000 and watched their attendance fall from where it was in the Sun Belt.

One of the most knowledgeable La.Tech posters has broken down La.Tech's financial situation and said with no reservation that in two more years La.Tech will no longer be able to afford membership in the WAC. The costs have become so bad that last year they had to pass the hat on the website to get enough money to send the tennis team to a tournament in El Paso. That was while the WAC money was good because UTEP, SMU, Rice, and Tulsa weren't taking a share and while Tech had conference trips to Tulsa, Dallas, and Houston.

Bitch and moan about the Sun Belt being unworthy of your greatness and aspirations but your administration needed only to look at the public documents regarding Tech's financial health to make the decision that WAC membership would be potentially fatal to the entire athletic program.

UNT has spent more on the athletic complex alone than Tech has spent on all facilities combined while in the WAC.

They lost their bowl game in San Jose because it never drew enough fans to be remotely viable. The NCAA nearly pulled their charter three years in a row because they couldn't post the letter of credit by the deadline, the NCAA finally gave up and pulled the plug and there are rumors that not every creditor got paid fully. Scoff at the New Orleans Bowl but it is financially viable and local ticket sales in Lafayette are ahead of the same time in New Orleans. The New Orleans Bowl made it despite ACTIVE work by the Sugar Bowl to discourage local business support of the game.

Now WAC teams are left with a trip to Hawaii if Hawaii isn't eligible or a trip to warm and sunny Boise.

The Sun Belt will match the WAC in bowl berths probably in 2007 but no later than 2008.

Sorry cowtown but I really want to see the facts, not what some thred rider has posted. Perhaps you could provide a link of the actual attendance falls of Idaho, NMSU, and USU since their new conference. I hardly classify a thred post as factual public documents...lol...You dont lose games because of fan support, you lose because you get outplayed. The sunbelt will NEVER match the WAC. Mark my words NEVERRRR. This conference is doomed.

[CMJ]

ArkStFan is known to be well connected. He's a friend to us here...helping Harry set the board up about 5-6 years ago. You're known to throw out alot of statements and use strawman arguments.

[risinggreen]

Let us not forget the possibility of the PAC-10 expanding from the MWC/WAC for playoff purposes, the MWC expanding from the top tier of the WAC for playoff purposes, and the remaining WAC members (our former Belt/Big West mates) being left out in the cold. I guess you could argue that if we were in the WAC we could possibly be part of that MWC expansion as the Froggies traveling partner, but I think that's probably unlikely at this point. I would love to throw caution to the wind and beg the WAC for admission TODAY, but the prudent move at this point is probably to see what happens over the next year or two. Let's just try and win some games over the next couple of years and maybe lady luck will finally land in our corner. Enough of this thread for me.

Good post and excellent points. Give Dodge a little time and we'll see how things shake out. You never know, Dodgeball could quickly become more successful than we can possibly imagine. Who knows? We could get lucky and end up going straight from the Belt to the MWC during a major shakeup. Some people seem to be anti-west, but I think teams like BYU, Air Force, Colorado State, New Mexico, and obviously TCU would draw very well to Denton. Time will tell.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

THE ABSOLUTE BOTTOM LINE (and I'm done) is that UNT has 0 fan support. NO ONE wants to come to the games when we play crappy teams. That WILL NOT change, whether we win or lose. The SBC is not going anywhere and it will ALWAYS draw the bottom dwellers. I had hoped that UNT would be going somewhere athletically, but after reading what everyone has posted, it is clear we will always be a no name school in a crappy conference.

I'll tell everyone what:

In 2 or 3 years when UNT is stuck in the same position (without fans, support, low attendance, and spirit) or worse (which I predict if we dont get out this conference) and you all are still making excuses for why we are where we are, think back to the words of Daddy Dumpsalot "WE NEED to get into a new conference and fast, no more turning down bids". The fans will THEN make the commute from Dallas once we start to play worthy teams, but until then have fun throwing out shirts and towels and giving away cars in desperation of fan attendance.

We need to stop looking into things so much and just support the idea of a new conference. If we cant afford a different conference, I am sure that the people that we pay on the UNT board, the ones that actually know the dollar figures, will not choose the conference. BUT if it comes down to what the fans want....I HOPE we start packing our bags.

Why is it we have to get so far down before we realize that something needs to change?

NOW, I am sorry If I have stepped on any toes with this thred, sincerely. I am very passionate about UNT athletics and I really would love to see it take off. I am sick of us playing worthless teams when we are much better than that. I want a shot at playing bigger and better schools and I'm sure the rest of the UNT fans do too.