Fight 'em HERE, or Fight 'em There

FirefightnRick · December 13, 2006

For those who THINK there will be this magic hush of peace with each passing administration, that Islamic nations will somehow end their decades-long distaste of americans and other non islamic countries once/if the U.S. pulls out of the mid east. Here's an article in today's Startlegram that points out to me very clearly that they will never ever rest from their hate of non muslims until we are all praying east to Alah. And to realize how far and low David Duke has had to stoop to find someone to listen to him? Maybe he will end up in one of those hostage videos on CNN?

Rick

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/world/16228931.htm

Posted on Wed, Dec. 13, 2006email thisprint thisWW II debateLeaders condemn Holocaust conference

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS/HASAN SARBAKHSHIAN

David Duke, center, a former state representative in Louisiana, speaks at a conference in Tehran, Iran, on whether the Holocaust happened.A handful of Holocaust deniers gathered this week in Iran to tout their theories that the history books are wrong. They are asking: Did the Holocaust really happen? Did Nazi Germany really carry out its Final Solution and kill 6 million Jews along with other victims in its concentration camps? The reaction in Europe and the U.S. was fast and furious.

Conference claims

The conference, hosted by Iran's Foreign Ministry, was touted as an exercise in academic freedom and a way to consider the Holocaust away from Western taboos and restrictions imposed on scholars in Europe. It gathered 67 writers and researchers from 30 countries. Most argue that either the Holocaust did not happen or that it was vastly exaggerated. Many have been jailed or fined in France, Germany or Austria, where it is illegal to deny the Holocaust.

A model of the Auschwitz concentration camp was used by one speaker, Australian Frederick Toben, who says the camp was too small to kill mass numbers of Jews.

Another speaker, Iranian historian Gholamreza Vatandoust from Shiraz University, said, "Some facts about the Holocaust have been documented." But he was criticized immediately by Robert Faurisson, a French academic, who said he had never found documents to support the Holocaust.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says the Holocaust was a myth used to justify the creation of Israel on Palestinian land.

Former Louisiana Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke said he was at the conference to support free speech. "I think Israel is more afraid of this conference than of Iran having nuclear weapons. ... They are afraid a taboo has been broken."

International reaction

Leaders in France, Britain, the U.S. and Germany denounced the conference in blistering terms.

"We absolutely reject this. Germany will never accept this and will act against it with all the means that we have," German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters. She stood alongside visiting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who denounced the meeting as "unacceptable" and a "danger" to the Western world. On Monday, Germany summoned the Iranian charge d'affaires in Berlin to express its anger over the conference.

Franco Frattini, the vice president of the European Commission, expressed "shock" that the conference was convened.

"In the face of this event, I want to state my firm condemnation of any attempt to deny, trivialize or minimize the Shoah, war crimes and crimes against humanity," he said in a statement.

The White House said in a statement that the gathering is an "affront to the entire civilized world, as well as to the traditional Iranian values of tolerance and mutual respect."

Soeren Espersen of the Danish People's Party said people should have the right to speak their minds -- even at a "hideous" conference like the one in Tehran. "We believe in freedom of speech also for nut cases," he said.

The head of Prague's Jewish community, which was decimated during World War II from 120,000 people to just a few thousand today, decried the meeting as "aggressive, wrong and disgusting." "It's immoral. It insults me, and it insults each member of the Jewish community, because we lost members of our families," Frantisek Banyai said. "It's a slap in the face of those decent people who know the history and want to learn a lesson from it."

SOURCES: The Associated Press, The New York Times

Edited December 13, 2006 by FirefightnRick

Coffee and TV · December 13, 2006

"Fight'em here vs fight'em there" is a much too simplistic generalization for these sorts of issues.

FirefightnRick · December 18, 2006

"Fight'em here vs fight'em there" is a much too simplistic generalization for these sorts of issues.
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It's not if the " 'em" is trying to kill you.

Rick

eulesseagle · December 18, 2006

Muslims have been intent on world domination since their inception in the 7th or 8th century.

Muslim world conquest was first stopped by the Franks (we know 'em now as the French) at Tours about the middle of the 8th century. The Franks were outnumbered about 3-1 or 4-1. With the Christian Frank victory the Muslims withdrew back through Spain and back across to Morocco.

I believe the Austrian army stopped the Muslims somewhere in Austia....I dont remember the time frame. Again, like the Franks, the Austrians were outnumbered 3-1 to 4-1.

The Crusades stoped the world domination of Islam.

As I recall that was the last large armed conflicts of Christian vs. Islamic armies facing each other.

Islam wants "All" of us to be Mulims or they want us dead.

Now just about every war on the planet involves Muslims.

1. currently fighting in the Phillipines

2. currently fighting in Malasia.

3. currently fighting in other southeast asian countries.

4. currently fighting in Afganistan, India and Burma (whatever that country is called now).

5. currently fighting in the Middle east.

Muslims are becoming more active in recruiting in South America, Latin America and Mexico.

Muslims are using the United States press to surpress whatever opposition they run across in OUR country.

1. C.A.I.R. is the Muslims version of the ACLU which have been filing suits daily in our court system.

2. Now american elementary schools on up are "required" to indoctrinate OUR kids in Islamic culture and even memorizing the Koran...your kids have probably already been indoctrinated.

3. The good people of Minnesota or Wisconsin elected a Muslim to Congress for 2007 and he has already said he "is not" going to take the oath of office on the Bible but only the Koran.

I do not want to sound like an alarmist but you can draw similar paralells to 1933 Germany and the beginning of the Nazi party.

As Nikita Kruchev told us in the 50's in the U.N. "we will defeat you (U.S.) from within." This is the idea of Islam.

Edited December 18, 2006 by eulesseagle

UNTLifer · December 18, 2006

2. Now american elementary schools on up are "required" to indoctrinate OUR kids in Islamic culture and even memorizing the Koran...your kids have probably already been indoctrinated.

Please elaborate.

UNTflyer · December 18, 2006

Please elaborate.
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UNTLifer, there have been recent stories out of California that some elementary schools have had "Muslim Week" or some such nonsense in order to promote an "understanding" of the barbaric religious culture intent on dominating the world. Some of these programs have had children adopt Islamic names, memorize portions of the Koran, understand the 'true' meaning of Jihad, and even demonstrate how to pray to Mecca.

Of course, any type of Christmas observation is completely off limits, because that would probably offend someone.

UNTflyer · December 18, 2006

Now just about every war on the planet involves Muslims.
1. currently fighting in the Phillipines
2. currently fighting in Malasia.
3. currently fighting in other southeast asian countries.
4. currently fighting in Afganistan, India and Burma (whatever that country is called now).
5. currently fighting in the Middle east.
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Don't forget Somalia and Darfur.

UNTLifer · December 18, 2006

UNTLifer, there have been recent stories out of California that some elementary schools have had "Muslim Week" or some such nonsense in order to promote an "understanding" of the barbaric religious culture intent on dominating the world. Some of these programs have had children adopt Islamic names, memorize portions of the Koran, understand the 'true' meaning of Jihad, and even demonstrate how to pray to Mecca.
Of course, any type of Christmas observation is completely off limits, because that would probably offend someone.
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I had not heard this. I am sick and tired of the PC/tolerance from everyone crap when it is not extended to the Christians and the faith our country was founded on.

Coach · December 18, 2006

I teach 6th grade social studies and we learn about all major religions. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism. We learn their basic beliefs and history. I don't see any way this could be a negative.

Don't lump all the Muslims in with the radicals. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with the "Christians" like below.

user posted image

meangreendork · December 18, 2006

I'd rather that we not slam all Muslims into one single, violent category. Because, God forbid that we all be lumped in with those responsible for Inquisition, right?

Not every Muslim wants a collapse of the Western world, but like Christianity, the Muslim faith does hope to see it spread over the world, so before we start fisticuffs about Muslims having their faith over the world, I'd suggest stop and looking at the Christian faith, too.

I don't like being preached on and having any particular faith crammed down my throat, regardless of what holy book someone carries. I don't like the Muslim radicals- they're committing violent acts in the name of their faith while their brethren preach against them. I don't like Christian extremists that tell everyone they're going to hell as you walk past them on campus. I'd rather not have friends and family fighting overseas against people who would rather blow themselves up than make better use of their lives.

I wish that the radicals would stop, but they won't. There's generations of conditioning and brainwashing in place that won't be broken. It's a grave situation, and in situations like that, there's only so far talking will go, and that's when violent measures are taken. But those violent measures are exactly that- Measures, and should be made with thought. Don't go shooting someone I know simply because they have a Quran sitting in their bedroom.

Unfortunately, that's the world we live in. Don't lump the Muslims in as one group. Don't lump the Christians together. Don't lump the atheists, Wiccans, Jewish, Buddists, and any other group into one generalized category.

We saw what happens when that kind mindset takes hold in Germany and in our own internment camps in World War 2.

Edited December 18, 2006 by meangreendork

UNTflyer · December 18, 2006

I'd rather that we not slam all Muslims into one single, violent category.
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Show me a sect of Islam that does not believe in treating women like dogs, does not want Israel wiped off the earth, accepts living with other religions, etc.

As for being lumped in with the Inquisition... well, that was the way Christianity was back then, wasn't it? It's the ugly truth. Muslims can't seem to face their own ugly truth, that they are stuck 12th century.

user posted image

December 18, 2006

It is just plain ass crazy to say that all of Islam is a "problem."

You don't think Christianity has an image problem? What if in every newspaper you read about some crime, it listed the person as Christian?

Christian man kills five in Kansas City -- including 3 children.

Christian man, 21, rear-ends squad car and kills rookie police man.

.. so on ..

Go look in every prison in the Good Ole U-S-of-A and you will find the majority of people are Christian.

If I were a propaganda machine in a Muslim country, I would make Christianity appear to be evil -- and it wouldn't be hard to do. With all the abortion clinic bombings, mail bombings, random (ruby ridge, Waco) type things and the sort...

What you do is take some propaganda from websites and start spewing them as fact and they well may be. However, you ignore that India's Muslims don't cause a problem. You even ignore that millions of Muslims live in North American and love our freedoms.

You don't think there is a large portion of Christianity that wants to "dominate" the world? Why are there so many "missionaries?" Why does every major Christian church have mission camps? Don't tell me it is to "help" the tribes in South America... they want to "save" those people and make sure they go to heaven. It is a noble cause, but no different than "dominating" them. Who nows, that sign you showed with the word "dominate" -- maybe that dude translated English wrong. Maybe he meant "help"

If I tried to make a Muslim sign, I would first go to babble fish on Alta Vista and type in the words, open MS Word, then print the sign. I wouldn't know if babble fish gave me the true spirit of what I was trying to say.. See: www.engrish.com for great examples of poor translations.

user posted image

UNTflyer · December 18, 2006

First, let me say I personally have no use for organized religion. I am agnostic.

Second, take the "Christian" nations on earth (USA, most of Europe, Australia) and compare them to the "Muslim" nations in terms of personal freedom, political stability, economic opportunities, human rights, etc.

I think the distinctions are quite obvious.

untgirl04 · December 18, 2006

It is just plain ass crazy to say that all of Islam is a "problem."
You don't think Christianity has an image problem? What if in every newspaper you read about some crime, it listed the person as Christian?
Christian man kills five in Kansas City -- including 3 children.
Christian man, 21, rear-ends squad car and kills rookie police man.
.. so on ..
Go look in every prison in the Good Ole U-S-of-A and you will find the majority of people are Christian.
If I were a propaganda machine in a Muslim country, I would make Christianity appear to be evil -- and it wouldn't be hard to do. With all the abortion clinic bombings, mail bombings, random (ruby ridge, Waco) type things and the sort...
What you do is take some propaganda from websites and start spewing them as fact and they well may be. However, you ignore that India's Muslims don't cause a problem. You even ignore that millions of Muslims live in North American and love our freedoms.
You don't think there is a large portion of Christianity that wants to "dominate" the world? Why are there so many "missionaries?" Why does every major Christian church have mission camps? Don't tell me it is to "help" the tribes in South America... they want to "save" those people and make sure they go to heaven. It is a noble cause, but no different than "dominating" them. Who nows, that sign you showed with the word "dominate" -- maybe that dude translated English wrong. Maybe he meant "help"
If I tried to make a Muslim sign, I would first go to babble fish on Alta Vista and type in the words, open MS Word, then print the sign. I wouldn't know if babble fish gave me the true spirit of what I was trying to say.. See: www.engrish.com for great examples of poor translations.
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You can't lump Waco in with Christianity - it was a cult group. You make a valid point about how our media immediately identify people by their religious beliefs.

I think honestly the problem is that the two religions are basically incompatible. Muslim traditions include subservient women, harsh laws, and absolute, unfailing devotion. Christianity, on the other hand, promotes freedoms, forgiveness, and assimilating the religion into our daily lives. Granted, these views of Christianity are dominated by the political views of the Western world, but that is in fact, how Christianity primarily focuses today.

We think Muslims are wrong because they treat their women differently. True, every religion wants to spread throughout the world, but I think where we in America have trouble is that many Muslims would rather kill all the "infidels" rather than convert them. It's a sad situation, and one which I think will never resolve itself.

meangreendork · December 18, 2006

Show me a sect of Islam that does not believe in treating women like dogs, does not want Israel wiped off the earth, accepts living with other religions, etc.
As for being lumped in with the Inquisition... well, that was the way Christianity was back then, wasn't it? It's the ugly truth. Muslims can't seem to face their own ugly truth, that they are stuck 12th century.
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Hmm...there was a recent story in the BBC News that muslim women in...Iran are starting to dominate university campuses and are becoming more powerful in the workplace. I'd say that even as slow as the Muslim countries are, this is a start.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5359672.stm

Christians want to dominate the world, too. Before, they used guns, propaganda, swords and disease. Now the methods may be more peaceful, but the objective is still the same as it pertains to missionary work. Simply said, no matter who would win, someone's gonna give up their religion in the process.

And yes, much of the Muslim world hasn't modernized. But there are those in modern countries that have adjusted well to life in those countries while still staying true to their beliefs. The rest of the world has a lot of catching up to do as it pertains to modernization. The Muslim countries seem to have a habit of ruining their own progress, and that's something they have to fix, no matter how much the western world intervenes.

However, there are good and bad apples in every religion. The Islamic faith among them- there are good people who mean well, who know that what their brethren are doing is wrong, and who have a dear attachment to the countries they live in. How do I know about these people? I grew up with them in school- these were the kids of American soldiers, and American soldiers who were Muslim.

That should be reason enough to not lump people together according to religion.

December 18, 2006

You can't lump Waco in with Christianity - it was a cult group. You make a valid point about how our media immediately identify people by their religious beliefs.
I think honestly the problem is that the two religions are basically incompatible. Muslim traditions include subservient women, harsh laws, and absolute, unfailing devotion. Christianity, on the other hand, promotes freedoms, forgiveness, and assimilating the religion into our daily lives. Granted, these views of Christianity are dominated by the political views of the Western world, but that is in fact, how Christianity primarily focuses today.
We think Muslims are wrong because they treat their women differently. True, every religion wants to spread throughout the world, but I think where we in America have trouble is that many Muslims would rather kill all the "infidels" rather than convert them. It's a sad situation, and one which I think will never resolve itself.
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Branch Dividians a cult? Says who? They said they were Christians

For the record, I wouldn't call them Christian either, but maybe a Christian cult. They did study from the Bible after all... this is my exact point. Just because someone studies the Koran, that doesn't make them a "Muslim" that Muslims accept. We (as non-Muslims) and point to them and say-- "See?! they are crazy. They want to drown us all."

As far as "that many Muslims would rather kill all the "infidels" rather than convert them" .. well, they can point to the Bible.

Deuteronomy:

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

It isn't hard to do. It isn't hard to twist a religion that we may not understand and make it seem very very evil.

The Bible says things about servitude, slavery, women subservient.. and hardliners follow that to a T. Just like hardliner Muslims follow their rules to a T.

So yes, the Muslim world thinks we would rather kill them too.

UNTflyer · December 18, 2006

I hate to invoke Godwin's law... but hey, let's not lump all the Germans in with the Nazis. Most Germans are good people!

I see your point, I really do. But we're talking about the survival of our way of life, and unfortunately there just aren't enough "good" Muslims to wrestle the power of the religion and governments of the Middle East from the "bad" Muslims.

What Islam needs is a Reformation.

meangreendork · December 18, 2006

The Bible says things about servitude, slavery, women subservient.. and hardliners follow that to a T. Just like hardliner Muslims follow their rules to a T.
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Want proof? There are several Fundamental Baptist churches all over the US that push the idea that women shouldn't work outside of the home if at all possible, should never anything a man wears, shouldn't cut their hair short, shouldn't ever wear anything revealing, and should be entirely under the rule of the husband.

Thankfully, there have been some modernizations to the Christian faith that UNTGirl04 is talking about, like some of the Muslim groups in the western world are implementing.

The Muslim religion needs an overhaul.

Edited December 18, 2006 by meangreendork

untgirl04 · December 18, 2006

Want proof? There are several Fundamental Baptist churches all over the US that push the idea that women shouldn't work outside of the home if at all possible, should never anything a man wears, shouldn't cut their hair short, shouldn't ever wear anything revealing, and should be entirely under the rule of the husband.
Thankfully, there have been some modernizations to the Christian faith that UNTGirl04 is talking about, like some of the Muslim groups in the western world are implementing.
The Muslim religion needs an overhaul.
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That was exactly my point, that Christianity has been "modernized" for the most part. Although being both female and a Christian, I am fully aware of what the Bible has to say about the role of women. I'm actually a more moderate Baptist (grew up Southern Baptist), so I've had many encounters with the Fundamentals.

If you follow a technical definition of "Christian" - those who believe that Jesus was God's son who died on the cross for our sins, then the Branch Davidians in Waco were not in fact, Christians. Although their origins are in the Seventh Day Adventist church, by the time the Branch Davidians were killed in Waco, they believed that David Koresh was the "Lamb" (a reference from the book of Revelations, which Koresh used to support his teachings). The Lamb is used in Revelations to refer to Jesus Christ and his breaking of the seven seals. For a good read on it, the Wikipedia entry is here.

UNTLifer · December 18, 2006

I teach 6th grade social studies and we learn about all major religions. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism. We learn their basic beliefs and history. I don't see any way this could be a negative.
Don't lump all the Muslims in with the radicals. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with the "Christians" like below.
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I do agree and believe that what you are teaching is acceptable. I just don't agree with teaching one without the other.

And, yes, there are nut jobs in every religion.

Coffee and TV · December 18, 2006

I'd rather that we not slam all Muslims into one single, violent category. Because, God forbid that we all be lumped in with those responsible for Inquisition, right?
Not every Muslim wants a collapse of the Western world, but like Christianity, the Muslim faith does hope to see it spread over the world, so before we start fisticuffs about Muslims having their faith over the world, I'd suggest stop and looking at the Christian faith, too.
I don't like being preached on and having any particular faith crammed down my throat, regardless of what holy book someone carries. I don't like the Muslim radicals- they're committing violent acts in the name of their faith while their brethren preach against them. I don't like Christian extremists that tell everyone they're going to hell as you walk past them on campus. I'd rather not have friends and family fighting overseas against people who would rather blow themselves up than make better use of their lives.
I wish that the radicals would stop, but they won't. There's generations of conditioning and brainwashing in place that won't be broken. It's a grave situation, and in situations like that, there's only so far talking will go, and that's when violent measures are taken. But those violent measures are exactly that- Measures, and should be made with thought. Don't go shooting someone I know simply because they have a Quran sitting in their bedroom.
Unfortunately, that's the world we live in. Don't lump the Muslims in as one group. Don't lump the Christians together. Don't lump the atheists, Wiccans, Jewish, Buddists, and any other group into one generalized category.
We saw what happens when that kind mindset takes hold in Germany and in our own internment camps in World War 2.
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game, set, match.

eulesseagle · December 19, 2006

unfortunately baptists, methodists, buddists, rabbies, hindus are not actively going out starting wars and threatening to take over the world or "kill" you if you do not submit to their philosophies.

Only Islam does that.

If you do not believe and submit to Islam, if you be an agnostic, christian, buddist, hindu or atheist you will be killed because you are a non believer of mohammed.

That my friends are in their (muslims) pagonistic writings. You will never find this in the writings of the new testiment and the other philosophical beliefs of other relegions outside of islam.

This is why all great modern western civilizations based their constitutions on the writings of the Bible. Yea, these same western civilizations had wars etc etc etc.....but......the countries that based their countries constitutions other than Biblical principals never thrived in comparison.

One of the best books that I believe that everyone should read, at least once, is Winston Churchill's, "The Great Democracies."

UNTflyer · December 19, 2006

The fact that this discussion is going on just shows how wimpy our nation has become.

We have become afraid to identify the enemy because it would be "racist". Six imams were taken off a plane because they intentionally scared passengers, now we're gonna let them sue the airline in our court system.

They're laughing at us.

December 19, 2006

They're laughing at us.
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They can laugh at us all they want. I am thicker skinned than that..

I love our freedom to sue. I love our freedom to say that someone pissed us off. I love that if I got pulled off a frickin' airplane for a bogus reason (i.e. wearing an anti-bush shirt) that I can raise holy hell and have my voice heard. I love that their are non-profit organizations out there fighting for bible studies in school and other non-profits out there fighting to keep religion out of school. I have an appreciation for the symbiotic nature of our freedoms.

They can laugh all they want -- because I am laughing right back.

Try to do that in Egypt or Syria.

Coffee and TV · December 20, 2006

The fact that this discussion is going on just shows how wimpy our nation has become.
We have become afraid to identify the enemy because it would be "racist". Six imams were taken off a plane because they intentionally scared passengers, now we're gonna let them sue the airline in our court system.
They're laughing at us.

I'd rather them laugh at us than repeat an event like Japanese internment camps of WW2.