Confederate Battle Flag

[NT91]

Lets do it one more time.

What do you think?

Edited July 29, 2013 by NT91

[gksmith]

This was hashed out a long time ago with University of Mississippi and a lot of high schools (including a local high school team...South Garland/Mesquite...one of those maybe).

I do not believe that the confederate battle flag is promoting racism. Yet the State of Georgia was compelled to change their state flag to remove (or make less prominent) the Confederate Battle Cross from the flag. Imagine if the Texas congress felt obligated to change the Lone Star flag and ramed it down everyone't throat?

The Civil War was faught over more then just slavery...but that is the main reason everyone seems to focus on.

Did everyone suddenly get "thin skinned" and offended by every little thing in society? I get offended by a lot of things in the world. But I am not going to rush out and file a law suit to have it removed. One person (or a small minority) should not dictate to the rest of the people.

If you are offended by the Confederate Battle Flag, don't attend the school that uses it. If it is a high school, move to another neighborhood/town or attend a private school.

[Coach]

The Civil War was faught over more then just slavery...but that is the main reason everyone seems to focus on.

Exactly, it IS the reason people focus on, therefore the flag HAS come to be associated with racism. I understand that is not what the flag stood for completely when it was flown originally, however, that was the 1860's and this is the 2000's and now it symbolizes racism. It shouldn't be used for the flag of a state or high school or anything that is not willing to associate themselves with what that flag has come to mean, which is racial intolerance. If you want to fly it in your yard or have it on all over your truck, you know what message you are sending, and it is your choice, but to have it as a public high school flag and tell any kids that are offended to just transfer? That's crazy. I don't think anyone is "thin-skinned" if they are offended by that flag, it makes me uncomfortable because when I see it, I know what that person feels about blacks and it is ignorant, hateful, and NOT "heritage not hate". If heritage is that important to you, find the local battalion flag that you may have had an ancestor fight under, a flag that doesn't mean racial hate, which is exactly what the stars and bars have come to mean.

I love history, I teach it, and I understand the civil war. But that is history, this is about what the flag means now, and that is hatred.

[untgirl04]

Having a friend who went to Ole Miss, I'd say they should keep the flag. True, there are some people who associate it with racism, but there are people in this world who will associate anything with racism. Symbols mean different things to different people, and that's just how the world works. For example, the German Nazi flag flown in Brazil is a symbol of good luck, having nothing to do with the Holocaust.

The Confederate flag is very much a part of our history, regardless of how people perceive it. As a history teacher, Coach, I would think you would be one of the ones up in arms about removing a legacy and link to the past. The flag may remind some of a time of oppression and unequality, but many others see the flag as a symbol of that Southern spirit and pride, that independence of thought and action.

[Coach]

It's a link to the past we need to move as far away as possible from!

Rightly or wrongly, the flag means something different now than it originally did. What it means now is nothing that should be flown by any of our states or public institutions. If an individual chooses to fly the flag, that is their choice and they understand the double meaning it carries.

[Guest JohnDenver]

As a history teacher he (likely) understands that by removing it from public high schools and universities, it preserves the HISTORY of it. You can leave it as a representative of a failed succession from the USA. You aren't trying to jam an old meaning into a new one.

When you constantly have debates about whether it is right or not, it just polarizes both sides ....

I am a fairly well educated man. I read a lot of history books. I watch every Civil War movie (documentary or Hollywood). I read plenty of Civil War books.. Still, when I see the stars and bars, I automatically question the intentions of the person wearing it. 98% of the time I am correct in my initial assumptions.

Don't use the flag to prove a point. Don't use it to say it is your heritage... There are PLENTY of things that represent heritage...

If some school decided to use a swastika as their flag, the COULD say it is the Hindi symbol and it means peace.. If they used a pentagram, they COULD say it is the old Indian symbol for peace and they would TECHNICALLY be correct. However, it would make you question their intentions. They could convey their intentions in many more less obtuse ways. In the modern world, those symbols have changed their meaning... we need to recognize that and use a more appropriate|accurate symbol.

Why would you want to use a flag that automatically makes the vast majority of people uncomfortable in its presence?

I don't think it is a modern day thin-skinned either. The confederate flag has been offensive to over half the population for 150 years...

If it was a private school, have at it, no problem. My high school shouldn't use it as a symbol of my community. I don't have children, but I pay my $3000 to school taxes each year.. I would hate for the Hebron Hawks to be using the confederate flag.

[El Paso Eagle]

I am a fairly well educated man. I read a lot of history books. I watch every Civil War movie (documentary or Hollywood). I read plenty of Civil War books.. Still, when I see the stars and bars, I automatically question the intentions of the person wearing it. 98% of the time I am correct in my initial assumptions.

←

Just wondering what the intentions you are 98% correct about are?

[JayDub]

Just wondering what the intentions you are 98% correct about are?

←

You and I both know what John Denver is talking about...and he's dead on.

Coach and I have had this conversation many times over the years and I agree completely...if it's really about "Heritage" like so many claim, then they'd do a little more research and find something a little less generic than the starts and bars.

[Guest JohnDenver]

What do I think of?

I agree.

Find something more pointed to prove their .. um.. point.

I am not talking about the point on their white hood.

There are a lot of signs for heritage that don't throw people back at first. Use them.

[LongJim]

Wonder if they'd consider using this one instead?

[drex]

I did not realize that the Mean Green of the University of North Texas was located in Mississippi. Let the Mississippians decide.

[NT91]

"which is exactly what the stars and bars have come to mean".

The battle flag is not the Stars and Bars.

The Stars and Bars is the 1st National flag of the CSA.

See below. Longjim you get it!

Edited December 5, 2006 by NT91

[gksmith]

I am not a racist or really any kind of “-ist.” My view may lead people to believe that on this subject and I want to eliminate that immediately.

Ole Miss changed the flag voluntarily because someone complained about it being racist. So for the same reason the NCAA took away the “Indian” mascots, should they now take away the “Rebel” mascot of Ole Miss for fear of offending non-whites? Who does the NCAA target next? Should we just eliminate mascots and just say “School name vs. School name” for fear of offending SOMEONE?

This turns into minority rules. In an effort to keep from offending any group of people, the move is to sanitize the whole society.

History is what it is. So many people think that by eliminating the images of history that it will just go away. History happened. There is no eliminating it from our past. I do not agree with trying to erase the past.

Symbols are just that. The same symbol can be used by two different groups and mean two completely different things. i.e. KKK uses the battle flag as a symbol of oppression while a high school with the name “South” uses it to signify they are the southern high school as opposed to the northern high school in that town. It is obvious how the symbols are used.

Sorry. The world is a messy place. I am not ready to sanitize the world.

[Rudy]

Funny thing is back when I was in high school, Distrist mate South Garland flew it proudly as one of their flags. In Garland, at the time, you could choose which high school you went to. Irony is that South Garland was the most popular and most diverse school in the city. I do recall seing more than just whitey riding around the parking lot before a game in a beat up pick up flying the Confederate flag.

Just my .02 and my .02 is free

Oh, and I was a history minor and do love to study history when I have the opportunity.

[Coach]

Since we are now telling our personal anecdotes as if they are applicable to society as a whole, here is mine.

Last year I was teaching 8th grade history. The Civil War is a big part of that. We were talking and looking at the flags that were flown and one girl raised her hand.

"So that is the CSA flag?

Yes, but some people display it for other reasons now.

Oh, because my brother has it on the back of his truck and I asked him what it was. He didn't say anything about the CSA, he just said he hated n______."

This isn't about mascots or the overly-PC crowd pushing for sometimes ridiculous changes. We all know what that flag (the stars and bars) has come to mean. That is hatred, intolerance, and ignorance. The flag has historical value of course, but this is what the flag has come to mean. If someone flew the battle flag posted above, you can pay tribute to your Southern heritage and not display a symbol of white supremecy. My argument isn't sanitizing anything, it eliminating symbols of hate. There is a big difference.

[eulesseagle]

ok,

the pc police tell us today the the stars and bars is a racist and politically incorrect emblem..........

but..........

here is an interesting question.........

if the united states government, in 1861, was still deciding what states were to enter the union as free or slave then what was the civil war fought for??

A. States rights.

B. Taxation without representation..

C. Union embargo.

D. Higher price controls on southern goods such as cotton.

E. Lincoln's early blocade of southern ports (prior to the war).

If the good people of Mississippi want to vote to keep the Stars and Bars let them.

Unfortunately, it is extremist groops such as today's KKK, that denegrate what the Stars and Bars ment to a generation at is far removed from today's thought.

Only the victors get to amend history into their viewpoints.

[Coach]

Unfortunately, it is extremist groops such as today's KKK, that denegrate what the Stars and Bars ment to a generation at is far removed from today's thought.

Exactly. Right now, in 2006, about to be 2007, it means hate. I know what happend with the Civil War, but this is what it means NOW. With that being generally agreed upon by all sides in this discussion, why would a public entity fly this flag? Why would any good person defend this flag being flown or fly it themselves with the knowledge of what it means in todays society and all the evil things that it stands for? This is not being PC, this is using common sense and decency.

Honor your heritage, keep history alive, I am all for that, but there are countless other ways of doing this than keeping around this symbol of hate.

[Guest JohnDenver]

..exactly.

And why don't these institutions and organizations that love that flag for the HERITAGE try to force these hate groups stop defaming their beloved flag? I question that as well. They spend all their efforts defending the flag and saying that they are tired of protecting the feelings of the "non-whites" .. and the PC police are over stepping their bounds .. and they aren't racist people.

Well? Then? Take your flag back from the hate groups. Change the image of the flag.

I believe eulesseagle said it offends non-whites -- I believe most the people in this country don't like the sight of the CSA flag. It brings up old scars of the worst war in America. It brings up issues of hate and intolerance. It reminds us of lynchings, church bombings, Little Rock shutting down their high schools for a year because they didn't want "the blacks" in them, Jim Crow laws, voter struggles, etc etc etc.

It no longer reminds people of the happy says of sitting on the porch smoking the corn pipe while listening to the banjo.

That is the plain and simple truth.

Take your flag back.

[LongJim]

I blame Charlie Daniels and Lynyrd Skynyrd for all this.

[GBarksdale]

I blame Michael Richards.

[El Paso Eagle]

Can we all just blame DD?

[Mad Hatter]

"Well? Then? Take your flag back from the hate groups.

Take your flag back."

What better way to take it back than to have more and more people flying it for a reason other than hatred? You can't force individuals to keep from using it, but you can change the rest of worlds perception as to what it means by using it in another way.

PS - The state should be allowed to do whatever they want with their flag. Let the people decide.

[Guest JohnDenver]

MTSU's original mascot was a student dressed up as Nathan Bedford Forrest (the founder of KKK).

I wish they would have kept that mascot.

It is history after all... The Klan just started as a gentleman's club for veterans.

You know there was a "Klan Day" at the Texas State Fair in 1923. <sarcasm>Man, oh man, I wish we still had those good ole days. </sarcasm> I don't like that aspect of Dallas history. It isn't something I like to bring up at xmas parties..

[UNTLifer]

As a white man, I find the name of Cracker Barrel restuarants offensive.

[UNTFan23]

Texas is actually one of the few states that hasn't changed its flag, which was adopted in 1838 and has lasted through many wars up to and including the civil war.

Some history about the Texas State flag

Edited December 6, 2006 by UNTFan23