Help me understand something

[Cr1028]

And I'm sorry, but if this is a Dodge reference, I just don't think he'd bring the cache you may expect. He's a high school coach, marginally well known in the DFW metroplex. I think we're overstating the hell out of his awareness/recruiting impact.

That being said, I would be fine with the hire and fully support it if RV goes that way. However, I agree with Emmitt 100% on Nix.

←

I disagree with the marginally well-known part. He has been on Nationally televised games quite a few times in the past few years and it would be extremely difficult to find a 5A player in the metroplex that hasn't heard of him. It would be next to impossible to find a 5A coach that hasn't heard of him.

[Cr1028]

Not always good to hire one of your old buddies from a former job or some close acquaintance.  It sure makes it harder to terminate them if things don't work out, or goals are not met.

←

This is my biggest gripe with hiring someone that you have a friendship with.

[Objective Aggie]

Just to way in with completely useless information:

Sometimes hiring coaches works in funny ways.

At A&M, when Fran went shopping for a defensive coordinator, he searched high and low and oila, ended up with his old coaching buddy Gary Darnell who kinda fizzled at Texas and as a head coach. The fans were enraged. How dare he! Well, Darnell did as good as ANY coach could have done given teh shambles we were in 12 months ago (ranked 107 for goodness sakes).

Meanwhile, many doubted that Billy Gillespie was the right man. Lacked substantial experience the pundits said. Too young and unproven.

But when we hhired our baseball coach, we passed or were passed on by several big names (head coaches from South Carolina, GT, and Fullerton) to get the pitching coach from Neb. He had a horrendous year last year, but I suppose time will tell.

Botton line: whether nepotism, cronyism, or just taking a big name, you never know when someone will work and when someone will flame out. Just give the guy a chance.

[UNTLifer]

I love my team, but I hate our fans.

←

We love you too.

[NT80]

I love how people ramble about Texas ties, but don't get why RV is talking to a Southern Miss guy.  Have you ever hired anyone before?  You put the ad for the position, then you start talking to people.  That usually means starting with people you know.

I love my team, but I hate our fans.

←

First, the job is in Texas and involves mostly recruiting Texas HS players and dealing with Texas media and fans living in Texas. I don't see South Carolina or Mississippi in UNT.

How many 1-A coaches have you employed? You hire to promote your football program to a better level than it's at, not promote your buddy to be near you. Name recognition sells, it's all about the seats in the seat$.

We do agree we love our team, and some fans need fired.

Edited November 30, 2006 by NT80

[UNTLifer]

He's a high school coach, marginally well known in the DFW metroplex.

←

You don't live in the DFW area, do you?

[emmitt01]

I just don't get how it's hard to understand that when you start a hiring search, any hiring search, you start with the people you know because they're easiest to approach and talk to and THEN branch out to the unknowns. By RV simply talking to Nix some of you are willing to crucify the both of them.

[SilverEagle]

I just don't get how it's hard to understand that when you start a hiring search, any hiring search, you start with the people you know because they're easiest to approach and talk to and THEN branch out to the unknowns.  By RV simply talking to Nix some of you are willing to crucify the both of them.

←

Crucify is (as is usual for you) a rather provacative word. "Reminding him of where his primary professional loyalties are", would be a better way of describing it.

[CaribbeanGreen]

You don't live in the DFW area, do you?

←

Not at the moment, but I'm still very close to the area. I still think it's apples and oranges. Knowing fellow 5A coaches because you coach against them is totally different than knowing them from a year round recruiting standpoint. It's a completely different relationship. Getting on TV a few times nationally doesn't exactly mean great recruits will flood into Denton either. For instance, take that La Salle HS out in California. They had a recent win streak and tradition that dwarfed SLC's, and have been on national TV just as often if not more. Do you know their coach - or anything about him? If Stanford hired him, would the earth shake in Palo Alto and recruits come running, or would you hear the small blurb that "hey, Stanford hired a high school coach"...

I don't get the logic that high school players will fall over each other to play for a high school coach, no matter how successful. The kid who was going to a BCS school still will. The kid who was going to UTEP or Houston or TCU still will. What gets players here is the situation -- a chance to play, winning, personalities "clicking", improved facilities, enhanced traditions, etc. The same things that get a kid to play anywhere. Not saying Dodge can't improve recruiting - I would hope that if he's hired here he can. But it won't be because he had good teams at Southlake Carroll, nor will it be because he was a .500 coach at Newman Smith. It'll be because he relates to the players well, has charisma, and runs a system that appeals to said player -- the latter not even really a factor until the second year -- his system would undoubtedly adapt itself to fit the college game.

And does the really good high school coach the kid just played against command more attention in mom & dad's living room than the SEC coordinator who talks about what it's been like working for Steve Spurrier the last few years??

I would support Coach Dodge 100%, but if he succeeds here it's because he's a good coach, not because of some mythical media boost we'd get. We'd take as many "bush league high school coach" hits (probably MORE) as we would get positive press for hiring someone with limited "big name" power outside the D/FW metroplex. As far as a "big name", nationally, there's no doubt a SEC coordinator would make a bigger splash than ANY high school coach.

I also think we REALLY overstate how much attendance would be affected because "hey, the old coach at SLC is at North Texas now!"... Did UH fill their stadium because they hired Briles?? Nah.. it was empty for three years, until Art started WINNING. We'll see our attendance up when we win. Period. When we have the coach best suited to put a good product on the field. Anything beyond that is a one game curious peek, nothing more.

Again, I'm not against hiring Dodge, and I don't support Nix anymore than Dodge. I just could care less about the "splash" either way. It's the same reason I've never been on the "get the biggest name you can" bandwagon. I want the best COACH. I want someone who wants to be here, who understands the situation, who can be patient through the growing process, and can develop the already growing base of a strong program over TIME, not a quick headline. I have concerns about a high school coach who hasn't sniffed the college game in more than a decade and was .500 at best -- even in HIGH SCHOOL -- until getting the no-one-has-ever-failed-here job at SLC, with huge advantages over almost every other program in the state. On the same token, I have concerns about a SEC defensive coordinator with no HC experience and no sure word on an offensive philosophy. Hell, you can find negatives and concerns about EVERYBODY. That's why none of us is the AD - I trust RV on this one.. he gets the interviews, he knows a million things we don't, and I have faith in his leadership. I'll agree with whoever he decides is the BEST COACH for the job, because he knows a lot more than I do.

I know one thing - he won't decide based on who gives him the best local paper headline, somewhere below the fold on the sports page. - Or based on what BCS coordinator gives him the best national boost - He'll hire the best coach for the job - for the long haul.

[emmitt01]

Crucify is (as is usual for you) a rather provacative word. "Reminding him of where his primary professional loyalties are", would be a better way of describing it.

←

And somehow talking to those he's familiar with and losing sight of where his "professional loyalties are" are mutually exclusive?

[SilverEagle]

And somehow talking to those he's familiar with and losing sight of where his "professional loyalties are" are mutually exclusive?

←

Well, officer nit pick. Not mutually exclusive, but certainly the appearance of compromising one's professional obligations.

Once again, he's been in Texas all this time, and he doesn't know anyone else to talk to? Professionally, he needs to get out more.

[Cr1028]

FOOTBALL; Army Selects A Coach: Berry

Print Save

Published: December 18, 1999

Todd Berry, who rebuilt Illinois State football and led the school to the Division I-AA playoffs the last two seasons, is the new coach at Army.

Berry replaces Bob Sutton, who was fired two days after Army lost to Navy in the 100th meeting between the teams on Dec. 4.

Berry, 39, reunites with Athletic Director Rick Greenspan, who was Illinois State's athletic director for six years and the man who hired Berry in 1995.

Greenspan took the job at Army in April and dismissed Sutton after the 19-9 loss to Navy.

October 14, 2003, Tuesday

(AP); Sports Desk

Late Edition - Final, Section D, Page 7, Column 1, 236 words

DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - Army fires football coach Todd Berry, who amassed 5-35 record over four years; team has 0-6 record this season

Buddy hire?

[SilverEagle]

Buddy hire?

←

Did they fire Greenspan as well?

[Cr1028]

CaribbeanGreen said:

I would support Coach Dodge 100%, but if he succeeds here it's because he's a good coach, not because of some mythical media boost we'd get. We'd take as many "bush league high school coach" hits (probably MORE) as we would get positive press for hiring someone with limited "big name" power outside the D/FW metroplex. As far as a "big name", nationally, there's no doubt a SEC coordinator would make a bigger splash than ANY high school coach.

←

How can you expect national recognition when don't even have substantial local recognition yet? How would this SEC coordinator recruit nationally when we can't even do it locally? You have to start somewhere, HS players don't dream of playing for NT. We need someone that knows the area and its inhabitants well. Someone who knows what it is like to coach at NT and not have an SEC budget or fan base.

Remember DD? Do you want SEC coordinator to take the job and then later realized the limited budget and fanbase he has to work with? Start local, work your way up, then go national. No well-known recruit will come here just because someone used to work for Spurrier, he would go play directly for Spurrier.

CaribbeanGreen said:

I also think we REALLY overstate how much attendance would be affected because "hey, the old coach at SLC is at North Texas now!"... Did UH fill their stadium because they hired Briles?? Nah.. it was empty for three years, until Art started WINNING. We'll see our attendance up when we win. Period. When we have the coach best suited to put a good product on the field. Anything beyond that is a one game curious peek, nothing more.

←

UH is a lot farther from Stephenville than Southlake is from NT. Plus, SL is a higher income area which would be likely be more inclined to travel then a less well off community like Stephenville.

CaribbeanGreen said:

Again, I'm not against hiring Dodge, and I don't support Nix anymore than Dodge. I just could care less about the "splash" either way. It's the same reason I've never been on the "get the biggest name you can" bandwagon. I want the best COACH. I want someone who wants to be here, who understands the situation, who can be patient through the growing process, and can develop the already growing base of a strong program over TIME, not a quick headline. I have concerns about a high school coach who hasn't sniffed the college game in more than a decade and was .500 at best -- even in HIGH SCHOOL -- until getting the no-one-has-ever-failed-here job at SLC, with huge advantages over almost every other program in the state. On the same token, I have concerns about a SEC defensive coordinator with no HC experience and no sure word on an offensive philosophy. Hell, you can find negatives and concerns about EVERYBODY. That's why none of us is the AD - I trust RV on this one.. he gets the interviews, he knows a million things we don't, and I have faith in his leadership. I'll agree with whoever he decides is the BEST COACH for the job, because he knows a lot more than I do.

←

I agree I want the best for the job but at this point Dodge has the upper hand if for nothing more than he knows what he is up against.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Cr1028
Thanks Adler

[Cr1028]

Did they fire Greenspan as well?

←

He went on to be the AD at Indiana.

[shaft]

Why do you think a high school coach can recruit at all? That's the one part of job Dodge has no real experience in.

Also how long to you expect that high school cred to carry over? Past the first crush against OU? Past a lost to Akron or Air Force?

And if you think SLC has so much pull why don't you ask recruit from Houston what they think. Or better yet a kid from Duncanville. Dodge maybe a good coach, but SLC succeeds because they have resources other schools don't, and everyone knows it.

The top 10 wealthies school districts win over half of all UIL awards. Its possible to buy success in high school. Better equipment, extra coaches, special camps. Dodge might be a great college coach, but why should UNT take that chance?

If were trying to become a next level football program, why not get someone with experience at next level programs?

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

And I'm sorry, but if this is a Dodge reference, I just don't think he'd bring the cache you may expect. He's a high school coach, marginally well known in the DFW metroplex. I think we're overstating the hell out of his awareness/recruiting impact.

That being said, I would be fine with the hire and fully support it if RV goes that way. However, I agree with Emmitt 100% on Nix.

←

Marginally known in metroplex...??. Not among people that know anything about football.... I have heard of him for years... and I live in West Texas ( not a coach) .

---Every Coach and probably most high School seniors are familiar with his name...... and those are the guys you need to know when you trying to recruit. Not knowing Texas coaches has hurt a lot of coaches recruit.

---I can promise you one thing, mention Todd Dodge and Darrell Dickey and have them identify them and guess which one they know. If they miss both then mention Mack Brown... if they don't know that one that ignor the responce, they don't know anything about football anyway..

Edited November 30, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Cr1028]

Why do you think a high school coach can recruit at all?  That's the one part of job Dodge has no real experience in.

Also how long to you expect that high school cred to carry over?  Past the first crush against OU?  Past a lost to Akron or Air Force?

←

He has worked here before and coached a UNT hall of fame QB. He has recruited, it has just been awhile. He can pull in some D-1AA assistants for extra recruiting help, or heck, even Kenny Evans. His cred will be above what DD and RFs ever had. This could be the steal of the century because mark my words, if he becomes an OC at a bigger school, you will be talking about how we should have taken him for the next 20 years.

[Cr1028]

I am NOT saying there isn't a better coach out there, I just don't think there is a better fit out there.

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

Why do you think a high school coach can recruit at all?  That's the one part of job Dodge has no real experience in.

Also how long to you expect that high school cred to carry over?  Past the first crush against OU?  Past a lost to Akron or Air Force?

And if you think SLC has so much pull why don't you ask recruit from Houston what they think.  Or better yet a kid from Duncanville.  Dodge maybe a good coach, but SLC succeeds because they have resources other schools don't, and everyone knows it. 

The top 10 wealthies school districts win over half of all UIL awards.  Its possible to buy success in high school.  Better equipment, extra coaches, special camps.  Dodge might be a great college coach, but why should UNT take that chance?

If were trying to become a next level football program, why not get someone with experience at next level programs?

←

Oh gosh I must have joined the dark side. Nonetheless, I couldn't agree more. This is a situation where we should be hunting for bear. If we could think about raising enough ammunition to build a stadium, then we could instead raise the ammunition to bag a coach from one of the majors. It is a lot less ammunition than is required for a stadium. This high school coach thing is like going out with the same old pea-shooter. Guess what, we'd be lucky to bag a turkey with that.

[TheTastyGreek]

Not at the moment, but I'm still very close to the area. I still think it's apples and oranges. Knowing fellow 5A coaches because you coach against them is totally different than knowing them from a year round recruiting standpoint. It's a completely different relationship. Getting on TV a few times nationally doesn't exactly mean great recruits will flood into Denton either. For instance, take that La Salle HS out in California. They had a recent win streak and tradition that dwarfed SLC's, and have been on national TV just as often if not more. Do you know their coach - or anything about him? If Stanford hired him, would the earth shake in Palo Alto and recruits come running, or would you hear the small blurb that "hey, Stanford hired a high school coach"...

I don't get the logic that high school players will fall over each other to play for a high school coach, no matter how successful. The kid who was going to a BCS school still will. The kid who was going to UTEP or Houston or TCU still will. What gets players here is the situation -- a chance to play, winning, personalities "clicking", improved facilities, enhanced traditions, etc. The same things that get a kid to play anywhere. Not saying Dodge can't improve recruiting - I would hope that if he's hired here he can. But it won't be because he had good teams at Southlake Carroll, nor will it be because he was a .500 coach at Newman Smith. It'll be because he relates to the players well, has charisma, and runs a system that appeals to said player -- the latter not even really a factor until the second year -- his system would undoubtedly adapt itself to fit the college game.

And does the really good high school coach the kid just played against command more attention in mom & dad's living room than the SEC coordinator who talks about what it's been like working for Steve Spurrier the last few years??

I would support Coach Dodge 100%, but if he succeeds here it's because he's a good coach, not because of some mythical media boost we'd get. We'd take as many "bush league high school coach" hits (probably MORE) as we would get positive press for hiring someone with limited "big name" power outside the D/FW metroplex. As far as a "big name", nationally, there's no doubt a SEC coordinator would make a bigger splash than ANY high school coach.

I also think we REALLY overstate how much attendance would be affected because "hey, the old coach at SLC is at North Texas now!"... Did UH fill their stadium because they hired Briles?? Nah.. it was empty for three years, until Art started WINNING. We'll see our attendance up when we win. Period. When we have the coach best suited to put a good product on the field. Anything beyond that is a one game curious peek, nothing more.

Again, I'm not against hiring Dodge, and I don't support Nix anymore than Dodge. I just could care less about the "splash" either way. It's the same reason I've never been on the "get the biggest name you can" bandwagon. I want the best COACH. I want someone who wants to be here, who understands the situation, who can be patient through the growing process, and can develop the already growing base of a strong program over TIME, not a quick headline. I have concerns about a high school coach who hasn't sniffed the college game in more than a decade and was .500 at best -- even in HIGH SCHOOL -- until getting the no-one-has-ever-failed-here job at SLC, with huge advantages over almost every other program in the state. On the same token, I have concerns about a SEC defensive coordinator with no HC experience and no sure word on an offensive philosophy. Hell, you can find negatives and concerns about EVERYBODY. That's why none of us is the AD - I trust RV on this one.. he gets the interviews, he knows a million things we don't, and I have faith in his leadership. I'll agree with whoever he decides is the BEST COACH for the job, because he knows a lot more than I do.

I know one thing - he won't decide based on who gives him the best local paper headline, somewhere below the fold on the sports page. - Or based on what BCS coordinator gives him the best national boost - He'll hire the best coach for the job - for the long haul.

←

Great, great post. Anyone who didn't read it originally, here's your second chance.

I'll be very, very pleased if Dodge becomes our next coach. He's not without his question marks, but I still would love to have him. I'll be very, very pleased if Nix is our next head coach. He's not without his question marks, but I still would love to have him. And as for Carthel, he sounds great, too.

If we hire anyone besides those three guys, it'd better be because ALL THREE OF THEM told us "No". Or, because we actually have a shot at a Zombie Landry or some other gift-from-heaven coach.

If we have to choose between any combination of them because more than one wants the job... I just don't think we can lose. Every single one of them seems to have what it takes to come here and be successful relatively quickly. There are no guarantees with anyone, but I don't think anyone could second guess any of those guys as our next head coach.

[Got5onIt]

Oh gosh I must have joined the dark side. Nonetheless, I couldn't agree more. This is a situation where we should be hunting for bear. If we could think about raising enough ammunition to build a stadium, then we could instead raise the ammunition to bag a coach from one of the majors. It is a lot less ammunition than is required for a stadium. This high school coach thing is like going out with the same old pea-shooter. Guess what, we'd be lucky to bag a turkey with that.

←

I'm there with you. I'm sure Dodge is a good coach, but why can't we go with a bigger name? Make a bigger splash? The other thread showed only 19 other D1 schools pay better than us, that says a helluva lot about NT.

Either way it goes, I would be very happy with Nix or Dodge.

Edited November 30, 2006 by Got5onIt

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

The other thread showed only 19 other D1 schools pay better than us, that says a helluva lot about NT.

←

What? I expect every ACC, SEC, Big 12, Big 10 and Pac 10 team, and probably all of the MWC, CUSA and Big East too, would pay more, and that is a lot more than 19 teams.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Defer below

Edited December 1, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[Cr1028]

PMG, your posts are a joy to read.