Comparing Todd Dodge to Dennis Parker

SUMG · November 22, 2006

I realize that high school coach Dennis Parker was a disaster. And I also realize that there hasn't been many examples of high school head coaches becoming college head coaches and being successful.

However, I think Todd Dodge might be the exception.

Also, Dodge is quite different from Parker. I would say that Dodge is worldly compared to the yokel Parker. Dodge has been on the big stage, having played at UT. Plus, his h.s. football team has been on national TV more than we have.

Parker came to us from Marshall.....east Texas. (No knock there, as I am from East Texas. And no we don't claim MGW). Dodge however, is right now in the Metroplex. Worlds of difference.

Dodge played at UT.....Parker at SE Oklahoma (Dennis Rodman's college).

Also, since 1991......when Parker was hired......high school football is totally different. Used to, high schools ran rather simplistic offenses. Now, more high schools run spread offenses than run oriented ones (if I'm not mistaken). In other words, high school offenses are much more similar to college offenses, than they used to be.

Dodge isn't my fave candidate....Carthel and Matthews are. But, TD is a close 3rd. And if Todd gets the job, I'll be very supportive.

Just my two cents.

tonyhuntoon · November 22, 2006

Dodge would be a disaster.

Dodge has the best of the high school world right now. Great facilities, a rich student body, etc.

He wouldn't have anything close to that from a competitive stand point at NT.

NT80 · November 22, 2006

There is no guarantee with any hire that they will win immediately at NT, regardless of their past coaching experience. DD went 3.5 years before he won.

I went through the Parker era at NT. I also saw Dodge and Southlake play Plano in the playoffs last season and on TV several times. I agree with SUMG that there is a big difference between the two coaches and their styles.

Dodge's system isn't based on $$ and facilities. He can coach and gets the most out of his players, many not overly huge or super fast. I would be very excited for him to become UNT's coach and we would reap a ton of local media from it = recruits.

Edited November 22, 2006 by NT80

GoMeanGreen1999 · November 22, 2006

Dodge would be a disaster.
Dodge has the best of the high school world right now. Great facilities, a rich student body, etc.
He wouldn't have anything close to that from a competitive stand point at NT.
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I don't think you can postively say either way what Dodge would be. Eagle1855 and I had much the same discussion earlier today about the effectiveness of Dodge on the college game. I have said and will say again, I believe Dodge is respected among many, many of the Texas high school coaches as not only being a players coach but also a great leader. Now, can he make the jump - I have no idea, but the odds are against him. I also point to Gus Mahlzan at Arkansas much because I know so much about it being a huge Razorback fan. I would have no problem if he was the head coach up there. That being said, I do believe Dodge could do it, because Gus learned a lot from Dodge.

To say Dodge would be a disaster I think is a stretch. But I will say, Dodge seems to be picking up steam with others "endorsing" him and he is not so far saying no.

I will be unhappy if we don't at least interview Don Carthel from West Texas.

Does anyone have any problem with keeping a couple of the current coaches? I think there are a couple definately worth keeping around, though I realize that will be up to the new coach.

OldTimer · November 22, 2006

I was at a CC in Kansas when Parker was HC. I tried to get NT to recruit my best friends son...a 6-3/4 285 G JC All American...who wanted to major in accounting.

He wasn't interested in recruiting an out of state player. Oh, this kid wound up going to Wisconsin and was their starting guard for two years there.

SilverEagle · November 22, 2006

I was at a CC in Kansas when Parker was HC. I tried to get NT to recruit my best friends son...a 6-3/4 285 G JC All American...who wanted to major in accounting.
He wasn't interested in recruiting an out of state player. Oh, this kid wound up going to Wisconsin and was their starting guard for two years there.
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I'm not supporting the Parker era, but for every story like yours, there is a counter story. I remember reading back in those days that Parker was the one that wanted Mitch Maher to come play at North Texas. He said that Maher was one of the best QB's he had ever seen. Not a bad assessment on his part.

centex eagle · November 22, 2006

the west texas coach might be great, but no one has heard of him and we get no bump from recruits, alums or the media. the week a coach is hired, we need as much pub as a dodge would give us.

Cr1028 · November 22, 2006

The thing about Dodge is he would would have a direct pipeline to the players at SLC, Grapevine, Coppell, etc. He will have the hotbed of the metroplex from the get-go. With one of the other hires, you have to go through the meet and greet process with all the HS coaches.

NT80 · November 22, 2006

The thing about Dodge is he would would have a direct pipeline to the players at SLC, Grapevine, Coppell, etc. He will have the hotbed of the metroplex from the get-go. With one of the other hires, you have to go through the meet and greet process with all the HS coaches.
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Agree, this is the biggest plus to Dodge. Besides coaching an entertaining style of football that players want to play (especially QBs and WRs), he would be instantly known to local recruits.

VideoEagle · November 22, 2006

I've been one of the more vocal critic of hiring Dodge. It is NOT that I don't think he can do the job, but rather I'm worried about his ability to step into the job right away.

Reading that the Rice coach, who is the model I'd rather follow, thinks Dodge would be good makes me feel better. But, the Rice coach wanted him as OC, which I've no doubt he'd be great at.

Folks, it's been 13 years since Dodge made the slightest real attempt at recruiting. Don't try to give me this "they recruit at SLC" stuff. Unless every other coach in his district is completely stupid, they don't do much real recruiting there. The UIL suspends players on the suspicion they were recruited!

And Dodge has never, ever, had to make the kind of PR pitches he'll need to make as NT's head coach. Please don't attempt to tell me the number of times SLC has been on nation TV. As a friend who was on the Judson coaching staff pointed out, high school, college and NFL press are all light years apart. I read a newspaper article where is was written he was great and I feel better. I SAW a videotape where he was awful and it takes all of that away!

And to suggest we "get no bump" by hiring Don Carthel is simply wrong. Granted, the utterly uneducated guy in the Metroplex is probably more familiar with Dodge than Carthel. But anyone except those who don't follow any who is not in the Big XII know Don Carthel!

Dodge could be the guy; I'll admit I don't know. But, let's rule out the guys with the background we need first.

FirefightnRick · November 22, 2006

TD wasn't a disaster while running NT's offense in '92-'93. And the arguement that he's having it handed to him while at SLC doesn't fly either. Anyone who has seen his teams play in person will tell you that they are never the biggest or fastest on the field. They are however the most discipline. Where does the discipline come from? TD.

I have a picture of our Nick Foster standing next to last years starting center for SLC that I took during the '06 Oil Bowl game. He looks like a midget compared to Nick, and he started for the Texas team and was dominating people. If I had to guess I would say he stood at around 5' 7'' tall, maybe shorter. The discipline factor doesn't change from level to level, and the past several years there has been one guy at the HS ranks that has taught it better than anyone else and that is TD. Whoever we get must be a focused individual and can teach discipline and I can't think of a better person to do that at this time than TD.

Rick

Monkeypox · November 22, 2006

And to suggest we "get no bump" by hiring Don Carthel is simply wrong. Granted, the utterly uneducated guy in the Metroplex is probably more familiar with Dodge than Carthel. But anyone except those who don't follow any who is not in the Big XII know Don Carthel!
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No, seriously, nobody knows who Don Carthel is. I'm willing to bet most on this board had to look him up. I think he's a great candidate, but you're talking about a guy who's spent 90 percent of his time outside Div 1A, not just the Big 12.

So no, you won't get the publicity bump you would from a Dodge or a Glanville with Carthel.

VideoEagle · November 22, 2006

TD wasn't a disaster while running NT's offense in '92-'93. And the arguement that he's having it handed to him while at SLC doesn't fly either. Anyone who has seen his teams play in person will tell you that they are never the biggest or fastest on the field. They are however the most discipline. Where does the discipline come from? TD.
I have a picture of our Nick Foster standing next to last years starting center for SLC that I took during the '06 Oil Bowl game. He looks like a midget compared to Nick, and he started for the Texas team and was dominating people. If I had to guess I would say he stood at around 5' 7'' tall, maybe shorter. The discipline factor doesn't change from level to level, and the past several years there has been one guy at the HS ranks that has taught it better than anyone else and that is TD. Whoever we get must be a focused individual and can teach discipline and I can't think of a better person to do that at this time than TD.
Rick
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Rick,

I saw a lot of the Judson teams back when Parker was their OC. They were never the fastest or biggest either. The other San Antonio schools were always MUCH bigger and faster. And the same was true when he was at Marshal. But, his North Texas teams here were completely undisciplined. High school discipline do not seem equate.

But, again, that's not to say TD can't find a way to make it work. His coaching is not what I'm worried about!

Edited November 22, 2006 by VideoEagle

Cr1028 · November 22, 2006

No, seriously, nobody knows who Don Carthel is. I'm willing to bet most on this board had to look him up. I think he's a great candidate, but you're talking about a guy who's spent 90 percent of his time outside Div 1A, not just the Big 12.
So no, you won't get the publicity bump you would from a Dodge or a Glanville with Carthel.
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Exactamundo. I understand HS is not D-1A but D-II isn't either.

Cr1028 · November 22, 2006

Rick,
I saw a lot of the Judson teams back when Parker was their OC. They were never the fastest or biggest either. The other San Antonio schools were always MUCH bigger and faster. And the same was true when he was at Marshal. But, his North Texas teams here were completely undisciplined. High school discipline do not seem equate.
But, again, that's not to say TD can't find a way to make it work. His coaching is not what I'm worried about!
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Call me crazy but my guess is that the majority of his recruits early will be guys that either he coached or his buddies coached. Thus, the discipline shouldn't be a problem unless it is with upper classmen. If this is the case? Hello green team.

Cooley · November 22, 2006

I guess I was the only Dennis Parker fan! I had no problem with the hiring and the job he did. He had just won the Class 5A State Championship. I thought he did a very good recruiting job.

If my memory is correct, he brought in Luis Silva from Judson. He feel in love with this QB from Plano that nearly beat his Marshall team and recruited him to NT. (Mitch Maher (sp)

He also brought his top (highly recruited) players with him. DL Willis Hudson, Stanley Jackson & others. His best prospect (Quincy Clouch) was one of the states top recruits but didn't have the grades to come to NT.

Unlike Darrell Dickey, the guy pulled out all the stops to stay competitive. The administration, like had been the case with other coaches, never game the guy a chance (because of his HS background) If he had been given 9 years, like a recent coach (without prior HC experience) he would have been very successful.

Parker was HS coach of the year and very influential within the TX HS ranks. His popularity was ever bit that of Todd Dodge.

I don't consider Dennis Parker a mistake! I remember calling the athletic department on National Signing Day. Parker answered the phone and when asked if he had signed a local kid that had commited to NT, Parker ran down the entire signing class for me. Was a very christian man which is what attracted Maher to NT.

FirefightnRick · November 22, 2006

Rick,
I saw a lot of the Judson teams back when Parker was their OC. They were never the fastest or biggest either. The other San Antonio schools were always MUCH bigger and faster. And the same was true when he was at Marshal. But, his North Texas teams here were completely undisciplined. High school discipline do not seem equate.
But, again, that's not to say TD can't find a way to make it work. His coaching is not what I'm worried about!
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Your going to compare Parker's Judson teams, and his one Marshall team that Plano gave the semi final game to in '90, to Todd Dodge's Carrol teams?

Dennis Parker never coached a day of college football prior to taking the job at NT. Not one day? Not even as a grad assist position. And when he went back to coach high school he took over a historical power 4A program at Cleburne and failed miserably there too. The comparison's do not match up.

Rick

FirefightnRick · November 22, 2006

I guess I was the only Dennis Parker fan! I had no problem with the hiring and the job he did. He had just won the Class 5A State Championship. I thought he did a very good recruiting job.
If my memory is correct, he brought in Luis Silva from Judson. He feel in love with this QB from Plano that nearly beat his Marshall team and recruited him to NT. (Mitch Maher (sp)
He also brought his top (highly recruited) players with him. DL Willis Hudson, Stanley Jackson & others. His best prospect (Quincy Clouch) was one of the states top recruits but didn't have the grades to come to NT.
Unlike Darrell Dickey, the guy pulled out all the stops to stay competitive. The administration, like had been the case with other coaches, never game the guy a chance (because of his HS background) If he had been given 9 years, like a recent coach (without prior HC experience) he would have been very successful.
Parker was HS coach of the year and very influential within the TX HS ranks. His popularity was ever bit that of Todd Dodge.
I don't consider Dennis Parker a mistake! I remember calling the athletic department on National Signing Day. Parker answered the phone and when asked if he had signed a local kid that had commited to NT, Parker ran down the entire signing class for me. Was a very christian man which is what attracted Maher to NT.
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I certainly won't refute his devotion to his religious beliefs but I consider his hire TO COACH FOOTBALL AT NORTH TEXAS ever bit of a mistake, especially on game day and it showed without a doubt, although he did do the ONE thing the selection committee hired him to do: Recruit Texas HS Talent.

But mostly, I consider it a mistake for the fact that we hired him over Paul Johnson, who's offense previous to 1990 had built Georgia Southern into a 1-AA national power and 4 national titles. It would take a full page to list Johnsons' accomplishments since he was insulted by North Texas. But just to name a few, in just his first 3 years at Navy he won the Bobby Dodd National Coach of the Year Award, and finished as a finalist for the Eddie Robinson Coach of the Year Award, the Paul "Bear" Bryant Coach of the Year Award and the Associated Press Coach of the Year Award.

Hiring Dennis Parker, who had never coached a day in college football in his life over Paul Johnson will go down as one of the greatest coach-hiring blunders in North Texas history.

Rick

PlummMeanGreen · November 22, 2006

I certainly won't refute his devotion to his religious beliefs but I consider his hire TO COACH FOOTBALL AT NORTH TEXAS ever bit of a mistake, especially on game day and it showed without a doubt, although he did do the ONE thing the selection committee hired him to do: Recruit Texas HS Talent.
But mostly, I consider it a mistake for the fact that we hired him over Paul Johnson, who's offense previous to 1990 had built Georgia Southern into a 1-AA national power and 4 national titles. It would take a full page to list Johnsons' accomplishments since he was insulted by North Texas. But just to name a few, in just his first 3 years at Navy he won the Bobby Dodd National Coach of the Year Award, and finished as a finalist for the Eddie Robinson Coach of the Year Award, the Paul "Bear" Bryant Coach of the Year Award and the Associated Press Coach of the Year Award.
Hiring Dennis Parker, who had never coached a day in college football in his life over Paul Johnson will go down as one of the greatest coach-hiring blunders in North Texas history.
Rick
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ANOTHER BIG BLUNDER FROM UNT'S ATHLETIC HUMAN RESOURCES DEPT? Wouldn't that have been another "passed over" applicant by the name of Dennis Francione (with Dennis Parker chosen over him)?

And thus the reason many of us on this board start getting very nervous when UNT officials start their quest in hiring varsity head coaches, specifically head coaches for our football program. Just check the records, folks, its not a good record at all and all that going on now for about a quarter of a century (which is a long time for any school to just keep on consistently screwing up football coaching hires).

If more of us on this board had (collectively) demanded excellence the last few years, we would have never, ever accepted just SBC wins to get to bowl games as our stop-gap measure of success . Did those 4 bowl games (no matter who we had to beat to get to New Orleans) serve a purpose (or two) for UNT? Sure they did, but we didn't need to dwell and just stop with SBC success as an end-all panacea for MG football but rather we should have set as our next goal in order to help us climb the NCAA D1-A ladder which would have been to win some OOC games over some Top 50 schools (of which Baylor and Cincinnati were not part of that group when we beat them as I recall).

AND...................if Todd Dodge were to take the UNT job (if offerred), he would by now know that just merely beating SBC schools would not take either UNT or his own career to the next level of NCAA D1-A; and if we were to hire Todd Dodge, we surely need a very nicely worded contract that says whichever school who might hire him away from UNT after (lets just say for example) 3 years of success in Denton will have to pay a very nice figure to hire him away from Mean Green Land. This is probably the only down part of hiring a very young success Texas HS football coach as our coach is that we might get another Jerry Moore scenario (2 years as the UNT coach) on our hands. Of course, that one eventually came back to bite Texas Tech in the butt.

Yes, I know, I am projecting success for someone (Dodge) who has not even been hired at UNT, but a young coach such as Todd Dodge will not want to stay at any non-BCS locale for too many years. Ask DD about that as he never had a choice to leave UNT for a higher profile job even after 4 years of success, but all that only at an SBC level. Ironically for DD, it was the formation of the SBC football portion of the league that probably gave him about 5 extra years at UNT as it was.

That is why all parties reaching the next level is vital, because there is no future as far as growth of our football program (attendance & fundraising?) in just winning a Sun Belt Conference football championship and playing the 4'th place CUSA team in the Big EZ that will keep real bonafide NCAA D1-A college football fans interested for long. Isn't it normal for anyone to want to go to the next level once you've reached a certain plateau for a few years running? Probably a reason some of us still sorta' like that short era when we actually beat a few schools people had really heard of and many of our (very naively) thinking that NT would make the next step up after even doing that. YET.................all that back in the day did make a very big impression on many of us when we were at that most impressionable age you might say?

Edited November 22, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

FirefightnRick · November 22, 2006

ANOTHER BIG BLUNDER FROM UNT'S ATHLETIC HUMAN RESOURCES DEPT? Wouldn't that have been another "passed over" applicant by the name of Dennis Francione (with Dennis Parker chosen over him)?
And thus the reason many of us on this board start getting very nervous when UNT officials start their quest in hiring varsity head coaches, specifically head coaches for our football program. Just check the records, folks, its not a good record at all and all that going on now for about a quarter of a century (which is a long time for any school to just keep on consistently screwing up football coaching hires).
If more of us on this board had (collectively) demanded excellence the last few years, we would have never, ever accepted just SBC wins to get to bowl games as our stop-gap measure of success . Did those 4 bowl games (no matter who we had to beat to get to New Orleans) serve a purpose (or two) for UNT? Sure they did, but we didn't need to dwell and just stop with SBC success as an end-all panacea for MG football but rather we should have set as our next goal in order to help us climb the NCAA D1-A ladder which would have been to win some OOC games over some Top 50 schools (of which Baylor and Cincinnati were not part of that group when we beat them as I recall).
AND...................if Todd Dodge were to take the UNT job (if offerred), he would by now know that just merely beating SBC schools would not take either UNT or his own career to the next level of NCAA D1-A; and if we were to hire Todd Dodge, we surely need a very nicely worded contract that says whichever school who might hire him away from UNT after (lets just say for example) 3 years of success in Denton will have to pay a very nice figure to hire him away from Mean Green Land. This is probably the only down part of hiring a very young success Texas HS football coach as our coach is that we might get another Jerry Moore scenario (2 years as the UNT coach) on our hands. Of course, that one eventually came back to bite Texas Tech in the butt.
Yes, I know, I am projecting success for someone (Dodge) who has not even been hired at UNT, but a young coach such as Todd Dodge will not want to stay at any non-BCS locale for too many years. Ask DD about that as he never had a choice to leave UNT for a higher profile job even after 4 years of success, but all that only at an SBC level. Ironically for DD, it was the formation of the SBC football portion of the league that probably gave him about 5 extra years at UNT as it was.
That is why all parties reaching the next level is vital, because there is no future as far as growth of our football program (attendance & fundraising?) in just winning a Sun Belt Conference football championship and playing the 4'th place CUSA team in the Big EZ that will keep real bonafide NCAA D1-A college football fans interested for long. Isn't it normal for anyone to want to go to the next level once you've reached a certain plateau for a few years running? Probably a reason some of us still sorta' like that short era when we actually beat a few schools people had really heard of and many of our (very naively) thinking that NT would make the next step up after even doing that. YET.................all that back in the day did make a very big impression on many of us when we were at that most impressionable age you might say?
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Jim, not sure about Fran. I didn't know that he was even a candidate, but if he was that proves even more how criminal that hire was because the TWO finalist the committee stewed over were Parker and Johnson.

Rick

MGW · November 22, 2006

Parker came to us from Marshall.....east Texas. (No knock there, as I am from East Texas. And no we don't claim MGW).
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God bless East TX, except Texarkana.

Screw that town.

MGW · November 22, 2006

And Dodge has never, ever, had to make the kind of PR pitches he'll need to make as NT's head coach.
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Uh, VE, have you not read the job description for our new HC?

Keep in mind that I'm basing this off of having listened to DD's press conferences and other media apperances over the years.

First, as head coach, there is absolutely no requirement that you participate in any PR effort on behalf of North Texas. Now yourself, that's okay, but not the school.

As NT's HC, you are expected to point out how crappy everything is, especially if it any way mitigates your responsibility to stay within 60 points of a top 20 team.... or Tulsa.

No, my man, VE, PR is not in the NT HC job description.

That, or DD was horrible.

One of the two.

tonyhuntoon · November 25, 2006

AND I am the guy that thought the firing of Matt Simon was short sighted.

PlummMeanGreen · November 26, 2006

AND I am the guy that thought the firing of Matt Simon was short sighted.
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Uh, Matt sorta' lost it toward the end and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Even more the reason why this next hire is so damn important for UNT. We just cannot afford any longer to do the "business as usual" type of HFC's hire in Denton as we've done most of my adult life .................or we will find ourselves so entrenched in SBC/Bottom 20 Country we'll never get out.

DD's good buddy Wright Waters formation of the SBC (football portion) all but gave him another 4 or 5 bonus years as a D1-A head football coach since most know he was hardly setting the Big West on fire with wins. Most D1-A coaches would have been gone after Year 4 with DD's W/L record.

YET.................every time DD opens his mouth he further makes his future very un-attractive for any future D1 job unless his daddy pulls out another deal for him. If ever the old saying "it's not what you know but who you know" fits for any one that would be Darrell Dickey.

IT'S ALMOST ALL VERY SAD: As DD still doesn't seem to fathom the cold stark fact that he (basically) talked himself out of his own job with all those numerous broadcasted radio comments on the very ones who would pay a journeyman assistant football coach about $250,000 and not expect much (like a football program on the D1-A rise)? Nor would he ever seriously be considerred an "up and coming" NCAA D1-A coach since no one seemed to ask him for an interview outside, uh, Idaho?

TURN THE RADIO ON.....................but it was not only those jabs at our school on those post game DD Shows but also those many (broadcasted) comments and jabs made toward our fan base with all those (forever) US vs THEM verbal diatribes that even a pop psychologist with an 8'th grade education could have seen through very quickly.

The "hatchet job" quote in today's Fort Worth Star Telegram caught many of our's attention because I really think it was DD himself who brought the hatchet out with all this; that is, he with his own hatchet drew first blood and did it even while he was winning (albeit against SBC-only competition) but for damn sure he was showing us all what kind of public relations coach we had in Denton for 9 years who would probably not help in selling football tickets and he making all those comments on the: MEAN GREEN RADIO NETWORK! Did You All Like That? (Sorry, fellers, but that continuous statement from one of our radio guys when DD actually had one of his bright moments still galls the shit out of me).

FWIW, I hope DD is not the only one who starts drawing unemployment because I think there are others still in the UNT athletic dept. that no new UNT football coaching staff needs to hear all those "this is how we've always done it up here" type comments and from such Negative Ned"derry draw any semblance of impressions from. Still amazes me how so many non-UNT'ers have the role of defining our own university for us all. Does it any of you?

A friend of mine was in the UNT Athletic Dept. right after Jerry Moore got the Texas Tech job (after 2 boring years screwing up Fry's talent) and pretty reliable word I got at that time was how some UNT assistant football coaches who would go to Lubbock with Moore were making calls on our nickel from the NT athletic department to recruit for the Red Raiders. So any of you who think all these types are totally undying'ly loyal to UNT no matter what, just get them another job at a higher profile outposts and just see how loyal they stay for UNT (even while still officially on our payroll).

Edited November 26, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen