Why UNT didn't go WAC

LongJim · November 5, 2006

I don't know why this gets brought up time after time. The WAC would be the kiss of death for UNT.

johnnylightnin · November 6, 2006

Interesting reading for this Tech fan. It is definitely true that the WAC was much better for Tech when SMU/Rice/Tulsa/Utep were our conference mates. The travel is tough, but the costs can be overcome with success. If the WAC can continue to get 4 or 5 bowl teams and begin to get 3 or 4 NCAA tourny teams, Tech will be able to survive longer. I personally would've preferred what UNT officials proposed to the WAC. That was very smart of your leadership if it really went down that way. Anyway, good luck the rest of the way out.

Arkstfan · November 6, 2006

The travel is tough, but the costs can be overcome with success. If the WAC can continue to get 4 or 5 bowl teams and begin to get 3 or 4 NCAA tourny teams, Tech will be able to survive longer. I personally would've preferred what UNT officials proposed to the WAC. That was very smart of your leadership if it really went down that way. Anyway, good luck the rest of the way out.
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Bowl appearances don't really generate money except for BCS games and a few others like Capital One. Basketball appearances do generate real money and its money that lasts for years. Over the life of it, an extra NCAA appearance is better for the financial bottom line than a BCS appearance by a non-BCS school.

rcade · November 6, 2006

Is it? We have 2 Florida schools, a Tennesee school and soon a Kentucky school...looking back I think we would have been better possibly in an Eastern division of the WAC that included the LA Sunbelt schools especially if UTEP had stayed
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Aligning UNT with the south is better than the west because it puts us in two time zones, not three, and the geographic distance is much smaller. The WAC's crazy huge, and the teams in it today are only a shade better than the Belt.

NM Green · November 6, 2006

Living in WAC country I can see the league and it's members up close. I also see the strategies each program employ to deal with having Hawaii and La Tech in the conference.

Right now the football team and ladies volleyball team travel together. This past weekend Utah State hosted Hawaii in football in the afternoon and volleyball in the evening. Last weekend Idaho brought their two teams to Honolulu. That strategy is great, but it is not as easy to do with basketball, soccer, tennis and softball. The seasons don't mirror as easily. The competition is tougher, but it is still a 2 maybe 3 horse league. Nevada has grown competitive over the years, but only Fresno, Boise and Hawaii have the consistency. The other programs are riding along and improving, but living in a Western league doesn't afford you any down years. Take a look at TCU - they have become non-existent on the national scene and I wouldn't be surprised if their attendance falls as a result of what is for them a mediocre year.

Further, we wouldn't sniff a bowl and if we did it would be a bad one. The Sheraton Hawaii Bowl already invited Hawaii and ALWAYS will when they are eligible. This is not the Sun Bowl and UTEP. This Bowl was created for the Bows and this year they lined up a Pac 10 opponent. The Boise Bowl might open up for some lucky school (Idaho in the Winter) if they make it to the BCS. Nevada is being courted by the New Mexico Bowl. Our options would be out West and they would not want North Texas, I promise you that (feels silly even thinking about bowls anymore).

La Tech has to be getting ready to lobby for an invite to the Sun Belt. They have to be sick to their stomach watching North Texas, Arkie State, Troy and Middle go bowling in their backyard. The Sun Belt has so much to offer a program like La Tech - regional rivalries and a competitive landscape. If they choose to stay out West they will become an NMSU, Idaho or SJSU before long. They are well on their way.

Good win for them this weekend. Change the coach - I want to go bowling again!

GMG

DeepGreen · November 6, 2006

Honestly from what I've seen of UNT recruiting the past few years games in California and Florida wouldn't help much because I've not seen UNT in on a number of Sun Belt guys who are big contributors in beating UNT. If you aren't chasing guys in your own neighborhood that can play, what in the hell would make anyone think exposure in any other recruiting hot bed would have any value?
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Sadly, you are dead on. Our coaching staff has really let the program down with recruiting the past 2-3 years.

Let me add, this WAC subject comes up every year. Now that we have back to back losing season, people still bring it up. For what purpose? NT better concentrate on being the "big dog" of the Sun Belt every single year. Good things will happen if we do. Let's just hope we can get a new coaching staff that will elevate our program to the top of the SBC again.

UNTBill · November 6, 2006

Sadly, you are dead on. Our coaching staff has really let the program down with recruiting the past 2-3 years.
Let me add, this WAC subject comes up every year. Now that we have back to back losing season, people still bring it up. For what purpose? NT better concentrate on being the "big dog" of the Sun Belt every single year. Good things will happen if we do. Let's just hope we can get a new coaching staff that will elevate our program to the top of the SBC again.
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Top of the BOTTOM, why should we aspire to THAT! By the way, how did you understand what Arkstfan said that is pertinent to your post. I sure didn't.

VideoEagle · November 6, 2006

I notice read the CUSA board that they are talking about the GROWTH in SBC football. They do not yet think of us as equals, but they also are not discounting the Sun Belt as they were.

It is not the Sun Belt conference that caused NT’s current problems. The SBC gave NT 4 years of bowl games where NT was one of only two teams playing at the time. That’s a true national stage with no competition. Baylor has not had that in years. SMU has not had an exclusive bowl game since the 60s. Rice has not since the 50s. NT did not capitalize on what they had and that was the coaches and athletic department’s fault. It was NOT the fault of the conference.

NT80 · November 6, 2006

It is not the Sun Belt conference that caused NT’s current problems. The SBC gave NT 4 years of bowl games where NT was one of only two teams playing at the time. That’s a true national stage with no competition.....SMU has not had an exclusive bowl game since the 60s.
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You are correct that other SBC teams have become better since 2001, but not yet up to even mid 1-A level. All the while NT has fallen to Bottom 10 status on the heels of 4 made-for-just-us Bowl games. And I believe the SunBelt is a detriment to NT. What do you think any college football fan's image of the SunBelt is outside SBC towns? They usually ask how are we doing in 1-AA.

And BTW, SMUt was just on ESPN2 (one of only two teams playing at the time) last Tuesday...same as UNT in it's Bowls; so, big deal.

DeepGreen · November 6, 2006

Top of the BOTTOM, why should we aspire to THAT! By the way, how did you understand what Arkstfan said that is pertinent to your post. I sure didn't.
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First of all, I do not aspire to remain in the Sun Belt. My goal is for NT to move to CUSA if there is an opening.

The WAC conversation comes up every year. I was hoping we'd move over to the WAC since their jersey patch seems to be more respected. The decision was made - case closed.

NT needs to make wholesale changes to the coaching staff first and foremost. NT needs to beat the La Techs, Akrons, Tulsas, SMUs of the world.

What good does it do NT to be at the bottom of the WAC heap? Is that better than being at the top of the SBC heap?

Edited November 6, 2006 by DeepGreen

Arkstfan · November 6, 2006

You are correct that other SBC teams have become better since 2001, but not yet up to even mid 1-A level. All the while NT has fallen to Bottom 10 status on the heels of 4 made-for-just-us Bowl games. And I believe the SunBelt is a detriment to NT. What do you think any college football fan's image of the SunBelt is outside SBC towns? They usually ask how are we doing in 1-AA.
And BTW, SMUt was just on ESPN2 (one of only two teams playing at the time) last Tuesday...same as UNT in it's Bowls; so, big deal.
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I've kept up with you guys fairly closely for 8 or 9 years. The Sun Belt is not the cause of your problems. The Sun Belt helped you win when you had a product that would not have won in the Big West, er WAC. The Sun Belt couldn't force your coaches to recruit. Don't give me some crap about Texas kids not wanting to play in the Sun Belt. ASU had 12 Texans on the 2 deep for Auburn and another two regulars out due to injury. One Texan had an interception against Auburn and a touchdown saving tackle that forced them to settle for a field goal. Another was a freshman all-american at linebacker. One of our most reliable receivers is from Arlington. Three of the eight guys seeing regular action as downline men on defense are from the DFW metro area. UNT showed little interest in them in any at all and came in late on all of them.

UNT failing to recruit its backyard is UNT's fault because those kids will drive 8 hours to go play Sun Belt ball.

Blame the Sun Belt is the best course of action of course, much better to blame something you can't change.

the green rokemi · November 6, 2006

Aligning UNT with the south is better than the west because it puts us in two time zones, not three, and the geographic distance is much smaller. The WAC's crazy huge, and the teams in it today are only a shade better than the Belt.
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wake up and realize that the Sunbelt is no longer in the South...more like the SouthEast...and who cares about timezones? Like I said if the WAC created a western and eastern division it would cut down on the travel for us...

GrandGreen · November 6, 2006

Please tell me why being in the bottom of the WAC is any better than being in the bottom of the Belt. The WAC is only a marginally better league, would cost much more, and would even reduce the minimum of coverage that NT currently gets. Complainting about the Belt made little sense when NT dominated football, it makes absolutely done now.

Edited November 6, 2006 by GrandGreen

Arkstfan · November 6, 2006

wake up and realize that the Sunbelt is no longer in the South...more like the SouthEast...and who cares about timezones? Like I said if the WAC created a western and eastern division it would cut down on the travel for us...
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IF

The WAC didn't want to do that. The WAC doesn't even want La.Tech hanging around but like the Belt and Denver hold on to their mistake because its the right thing to do but keep hoping they'll find a home.

Timezones matter to television. The best time for a night game involving western teams is getting close to bed time for central time zone teams. An early afternoon game in the central is about the time the 18-25 year old college football fan is starting to roll out of bed to nurse a hangover out west. When it comes to regional TV, they'd rather have two in region teams involved than one.

GreenTiger_OriginalAcct · November 6, 2006

JUST WIN.

It solves everything. Win the SunBelt every year and beat everyone you play out of conference. Everyone - including Texas. That should be our goal and our plan.

JUST WIN.

Play for it. Strive for it. Plan for it. Scheme for it. Throw out wacky game plans in the 2nd quarter that work and keep using them. Whatever takes to win.

JUST WIN.

And everything else will take care of itself.

The sooner UNT realizes this, the better.

VideoEagle · November 6, 2006

and who cares about timezones?
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TV stations do! As SMU and TCU found out, the WAC football schedule means you don’t get much converage on TV on Saturdays or Sundays. By Monday, it’s not news anymore.

TCU demanded and got a special deal from the Mtn. West to only play a very, very limited number of games that start after 6pm Central time even when they are playing out west.

The WACy folks couldn’t be that flexible.

rcade · November 6, 2006

wake up and realize that the Sunbelt is no longer in the South...more like the SouthEast...and who cares about timezones? Like I said if the WAC created a western and eastern division it would cut down on the travel for us...
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Who cares about timezones? TV networks and TV viewers. Other than that, nobody.

The WAC had a chance to create a division for UNT and they turned it down. If you're going to dog the Sun Belt in favor of far-fetched alternatives that aren't going to happen, here's one for you: The SEC could create a western division for us that would be WAY better for us than the Belt!

The Belt's the worst conference in I-A, but playing well over the course of years in a lowly conference is our best path to long-term success. Did the Missouri Valley Conference look good to UNT fans in the 1970s? Several of our former rivals in that conference stuck around when we quit -- damn you, C.C. Nolan! -- and they're now in CUSA and the Big East.

Edited November 6, 2006 by rcade

KAjunRaider · November 6, 2006

Is it? We have 2 Florida schools, a Tennesee school and soon a Kentucky school...looking back I think we would have been better possibly in an Eastern division of the WAC that included the LA Sunbelt schools especially if UTEP had stayed
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The funny thing is, it is not that much further from Murfreesboro to Denton, than it is from Denton to El Paso (maybe one hour more).

MapQuest says 71 more miles.

Edited November 6, 2006 by KAjunRaider

VideoEagle · November 6, 2006

Did the Missouri Valley Conference look good to UNT fans in the 1970s? Several of our former rivals in that conference stuck around when we quit -- damn you, C.C. Nolan! -- and they're now in CUSA and the Big East.
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Quiting the MVC was more Hayden Fry than Jitter Nolan. As a football conference, it was collapsing anyway. Houston had already left. I think Memphis was gone by then as well. Wichita State was about to drop football. Louisville was still there, but was looking to get out if I remember correctly. Quitting the MVC hurt basketball more than football.

GrandGreen · November 6, 2006

I keep seeing references to the "bad" decision of getting out of the MVC. Does anyone even know who was in the conference at the time. How about Bradley, Drake, Wichita State, West Texas, Tulsa, New Mexico State and I think maybe Southern Illinois. Cinncinnati and Memphis had already left and Louisville got out the same year as NT. By the way Houston got out about 15 years earlier.

Going 1aa almost killed the program, but getting out of the MVC didn't hurt NT's football program.

foutsrouts · November 6, 2006

Among other things, the SBC is seriously hindering our ability to recruit quality players in Texas because our competition continually slams our conference affiliation to potential recruits. USA would be nice, but if ANYONE else comes calling we should definitely consider making a change.

Just my opinion of course, but this school has never in its history had the cojones to attempt anything more than baby steps. If you behave as an inferior, people will treat you as an inferior. That's just human nature and is the way our university has always seemed to behave.

The WAC may not be the Big 12, but it certainly is a cut above the SBC. Since we obviously have serious financial limitations, why not try football only? We could always come crawling back to the SBC if we fail. The SBC wouldn't turn down El Centro College if they wanted to try IA football.

Arkstfan · November 6, 2006

Bull hockey.

If you were in the WAC they would be telling kids that they'll spend all their time on an airplane and not get home until 4 in the morning.

There is ample talent in the region WILLING to play Sun Belt football if someone will recruit them.

As I noted earlier, ASU has some big contributors on our team from the Metroplex that UNT either didn't recruit or didn't recruit seriously until we had locked them up.

Blaming the Sun Belt for your recruiting woes is to ignore the truth staring you in the face.

foutsrouts · November 6, 2006

Bull hockey.
If you were in the WAC they would be telling kids that they'll spend all their time on an airplane and not get home until 4 in the morning.
There is ample talent in the region WILLING to play Sun Belt football if someone will recruit them.
As I noted earlier, ASU has some big contributors on our team from the Metroplex that UNT either didn't recruit or didn't recruit seriously until we had locked them up.
Blaming the Sun Belt for your recruiting woes is to ignore the truth staring you in the face.
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And they would also be telling the recruits that the airplane would be landing in Hawaii. Since when is a plane ride to a REAL game of interest in Boise more painful than a plane ride to an obscure game at FIU/FAU? Also, are you saying that we don't even attempt to recruit players in the Metroplex? Our coaches may be bad, but not quite that bad. The word is out about the Sunbelt team up in

Denton but the players are just not biting. I know for a fact that opposing Texas schools use our affiliation against us. I've heard it from several players.

Spaceraider · November 6, 2006

Bull hockey.
If you were in the WAC they would be telling kids that they'll spend all their time on an airplane and not get home until 4 in the morning.
There is ample talent in the region WILLING to play Sun Belt football if someone will recruit them.
As I noted earlier, ASU has some big contributors on our team from the Metroplex that UNT either didn't recruit or didn't recruit seriously until we had locked them up.
Blaming the Sun Belt for your recruiting woes is to ignore the truth staring you in the face.
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Rick Stockstill, with just a few weeks on the job came into Dallas and signed a Dallas running back that Tulsa (uh..I think they're in C-USA) was expecting to sign. The Sun Belt affiliation didn't hurt MT, UNT offered as well, so you'll have to use an excuse other than conference affiliation.

Phillip Tanner Rivals Profile

Edited November 6, 2006 by Spaceraider