What Level Should A New UNT Head FB Coach Come?

PlummMeanGreen · October 22, 2006

First of all, this poll as any other poll on GMG.com will not be a scientifically accurate one no matter the results because of so many who are registered with GoMeanGreen.com who have no UNT ties or interest at all. In fact, some of that group would probably vote for what they would perceive would be our worse possible choice for a new head football coach at UNT.

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Most all head football coaches outside the Top 10 NCAA D1-A programs (such as those presently coaching at non BCS schools) aspire to be a coach at a Top 10 school for their careers if they continue being a head football coach at the NCAA D1-A level at all.

One day Coach Dickey will move on whether that happens with him making that decision or top UNT officials make that choice for him. No one who I know (who can separate the man from the coach) would wish DD nothing but good fortune whenever that day arrives (whatever the time-table).

UNT made its biggest strides in Mean Green football from Point A to Point B when it last hired a high profile name coach such as Hayden Fry was when we hired him in December of 1972 right after SMU had fired him. Fry's teams had no convenient bowl game for their rewards as the fledgling SBC provided for its champion from the beginning. That was not Fry's fault but the Commissioner of the Missouri Valley Conference (one Micky Holmes); but there was no trend in that day for the "lesser" conferences to get bowl ties; in fact, during that era such a happening as that would have been considered a pipe dream.

The "Fry" choice (or high profile name) from me will be no surprise to you who have read my epistles on this forum; but for you who are new and have just joined GMG.com or those of you who are new lurkers, you are reading these thoughts for the first time.

Quite frankly, like many of you have already posted with you own dire concerns, I, too, fear what present UNT leaders might come up with for a new head football coach at UNT once that day arrives for such a hiring because in Denton we've had too many "buddy-buddy hires" or "good ol' boy hires" (with no name ID whatsoever) and because of that....

SUCH HIRINGS THE PRIME REASON MEAN GREEN FOOTBALL HAS BEEN ON ONE HELLUVA' ROLLER COASTER RIDE FOR US THE LAST 25 YEARS WITH NO UPWARD BOUND PROGRESS IN NCAA D1-A?

BACK IN THE DAY...................as far as Fry taking us from Point A to Point B at a higher profile (AND..........please do hear me out, all you SBC apologist who are happy with that level of Bottom NCAA Quadrant successes and competition>>>>>>>>>>With Fry, UNT had wins and closer played games with "name" schools as our opponents. For you newbies who need further proof, (once again) just check any NT football media guide which will show our football history starting back from the early 1900's.

Edited October 22, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

Arkstfan · October 22, 2006

There's no magic place to get coaches.

Look at the league co-leaders.

MTSU hired Stockstill a 24 year coaching veteran with big school experience but who had never been a head coach with no ties to the area.

ASU hired Roberts who had never coached at the I-A level until hired by ASU, but was an Arkansas guy who had turned around a dreadful Division II school as head coach and then won in I-AA as a head coach.

greeneagle69 · October 22, 2006

What situation do you think would exisit for a pro assistant to go back to college ranks ?????? Would UNT pay him enough ? Could we get both in such a move..a "NAME" coach from the for asst ranks ???? Would we ever have a chance at a "LOU Holtz" type...Those guys would never come to our dumpy facilites to end a carreer !!!! Let's call Freddie Kitchens !!!!!!!!

El Paso Eagle · October 22, 2006

Plumm -

You missed two other areas where we could find a coach

* 1AA/D-2 Head Coach

* Current UCLA asst.

SilverEagle · October 22, 2006

There's no magic place to get coaches.
Look at the league co-leaders.
MTSU hired Stockstill a 24 year coaching veteran with big school experience but who had never been a head coach with no ties to the area.
ASU hired Roberts who had never coached at the I-A level until hired by ASU, but was an Arkansas guy who had turned around a dreadful Division II school as head coach and then won in I-AA as a head coach.
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Excellent points.

However, I'll add this observation. Our three most successful coaches (Mitchell, Fry and Nelson) were all from Texas.

The last two, Fry and Nelson, were coaches who knew North Texas very well (Fry because he coached close by, and Nelson because he was the DL coach under Rod Rust) and knew EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE GETTING THEMSELVES INTO.

There was little or no learning curve (football culture wise) for either of them, and they wasted little time in going about turning things around. In Nelson's case, he went about doing the best he could with the VERY LIMITED resources that were given to him.

PlummMeanGreen · October 22, 2006

There's no magic place to get coaches.
Look at the league co-leaders.
MTSU hired Stockstill a 24 year coaching veteran with big school experience but who had never been a head coach with no ties to the area.
ASU hired Roberts who had never coached at the I-A level until hired by ASU, but was an Arkansas guy who had turned around a dreadful Division II school as head coach and then won in I-AA as a head coach.
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APPLES & ORANGES, PERHAPS?

HAVE A SLICE OF EITHER...............One question might be, Arkstfan, where will the 2006 SBC football champion (after the CUSA 4'th place team most likely schools our SBC champion "again" in the upcoming 2006 NO's Bowl) be ranked among all the other 119 D1-A schools when all is done and said after this 2006 college football campaign?

25 years of nothingness and very few successes (moslty failure) has caused too many of our best NT Exes and MG fans to go into "accept anything" status & accept just about anything UNT leaders would dish down---no questions asked. Those days need to end very, very soon, fellow alums! Hey folks! It's our alma mater---NOT THEIRS, DAMN IT!

Yet I do agree with you, Arkstfan, (as I most always do with your posts) there really is no magic in hiring, unless a school plays a very pro-active part in trying to make their own magic. Sorta' like someone who once said about luck: You make your own luck? UTEP and Idaho made their own magic with each of their own high profile hires because that is just what they sought out to do. At UNT, we would have those, too, who would say all that is "The Impossible Dream" because (most likely) such a dream cannot happen under their watch.

As you would already know, Arkstfan, a traditional basketball school over in El Paso, Texas, that had never even smelled Top 25 in their entire football history got Top 25 rankings in their new high profile coach's 2'nd year on the UTEP payroll. Idaho has already shown signs of life with their football program previoulsy unseen no matter how they finish this year.

Fry's first year at UNT he was merely a modest 5-5-1. His 2'nd year at UNT his team only won 2 games; yet Coach Fry's success would come later as he recruited "his players" that would give him the kind of success whereas his team the year after the "2 win" season beat (among others) the University of Tennessee Volunteers and the University of Houston (the year before the Cougars would go to the New Years Day Cotton Bowl game). You don't really have to have the so-called 5 or 6 or 9 year plan for success with the right person, folks.

Coach MIke Price (also) hardly came to El Paso with an altar boy image, either, for those of you of UNT who think our own future "possible" high profile hire has to have nail scars in both hands.

UNT VS UTEP ALL TIME FOOTBALL SERIES RECORD:

UNT..........13 Wins

UTEP..........5 Wins

** 5 ties

Who out there among you of the Mean Green Nation would let anyone at UNT today convice you that we are just fine as we are now AND..........that we don't deserve for our Mean Green football program what UTEP has been getting of late (and what it appears is happening with former SBC-mate Idaho, with their own high profile hire aka one Mr. Dennis Erickson?

Edited October 22, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

untbowler · October 22, 2006

Plumm and others:

We have to remember that Helwig is no longer hiring coaches. Yes JJ has been a disappoint for most of us but he did have an excellent background beforehand. RV has made a great hiring in Lama for Tennis, along a top notch assistant. Did RV hire Hedlund?? Softball not sure what to think about yet, although RV did fire thge first coach.

Give it time and trust in RV to make the correct hire when the BOR gets the huevos to clean house.

NT03 · October 22, 2006

* Current UCLA asst.

Would LOVE to see that happen.. Then I thougth to myself , why would he want to leave a place like UCLA , one of the top 5 overall ( my opinion) schools in America & come into one of the most pathetic football programs ( at it's current state) in the country. I couldnt blame the guy if he wanted to stay and LA!

DallasGreen · October 22, 2006

What situation do you think would exisit for a pro assistant to go back to college ranks ?????? Would UNT pay him enough ? Could we get both in such a move..a "NAME" coach from the for asst ranks ???? Would we ever have a chance at a "LOU Holtz" type...Those guys would never come to our dumpy facilites to end a carreer !!!! Let's call Freddie Kitchens !!!!!!!!
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Charlie Waters has coached in college before and would probably consider an offer

stebo · October 22, 2006

Ok, I'll play. First of all - JJ has not been a bust. The team that he took over was in absolute dissaray. He has gotten us back to .500 ball. He also had to start from scratch. The day that he walked onto campus, our number one player actually chose to ignore the fact that we would not release him from his scholarship and in turn - he paid his own way to play at OSU. Ouch, that is how bad the situation was with basketball folks. JJ has been a bandaid, that's about it - but he was the best damn bandaid that we could find/afford. Edge: RV

Secondly, the softball coach left on her own. She was unstable and I have heard some nightmare stories about her taking the team into a room and just talking and talking and talking into the wee hours of the night. Then asking each of them about their personal lives, etc... she had also handles leaving her previous position in a similar manner. I know that most on here don't really care too much about softball, but she really turned out to be a terrible hire. Luckily we rid ourselves of her naturally. Edge: bad hire

Hedlund has been here since the program was founded. He is the only soccer coach that we have ever had; and probably will be around for a long time. The one thing that I am critical about RV and Co for failing to do is give this man a significant raise. He has had some contract extensions; but the money hasn't exactly been attached to those extensions. Edge: toss-up

Slinker, well what are you gonna do. She was the only one that wanted the job for the longest time and fans really didn't seem to care either way. When asked for a donation, you didn't hear fans screaming, "Only when you fire that terrible women's basketball coach!" - then, just as she was probably at the end of her rope... she started winning. A couple of NIT visits, a couple of divisional championships in the Belt. She recruits well, she runs a squeaky clean program, and she never complains. If you think that the guys have had it tough, fighting for playing time against intramurals in the PEB - you probably don't want to ask Slinker what tough really is. All of those wrongs are being righted now over at the Mean Green Village/Liberty Christian - but they are WAY overdue.

Dickey - well, name a time when he could have been fired (by RV). RV got here - after Dickey was put on a very short leash (post ULM game 2001) - he started winning. Otherwise he was to be let go. Well, I'll be damned if that somebitch has just kept winning, year after year after year. You cannot fire a coach that is winning his conference even if you really want to. Dickey has made the most of his tenure, getting raises and extensions and donations. We have all come out winners by his winning ways. Last year those winning ways came to a stop and some fans wanted him gone... but most didn't. Most fans wanted to give him that one year to rebuild. In fact, some of the most vocal Dickey opponents were Dickey apologists over the last 5 years.

It is now his time to go and I think that he is pretty aware of it. So where will RV find his replacement? Well, if you ask me - RV will dip back into the pool that he knows best, Southern Miss. I have heard speculation everywhere from Jerry Glanville (now at Hawaii) to Todd Dodge at Southlake Carroll. I am going to guess that RV has never spoken to either one of them fellas. RV seems to be the type of guy that will want to hire someone that he knows or knows of. That is my best guess. As I have tried to show above, he is about 50/50 on hires and retentions; so we have a pretty good chance of bringing in someone that will win. Southern Miss is much like us, they have to sit in the big schools shadows - and they are just now getting their budget up to a respectable amount (much like us)... most of the troubles that we face on a day-in/day-out basis are problems that a coach from USM will already be used to.

So my answer is not really in your poll anywhere - my answer would be - E) A familiar IA coach that RV has watched work before and has shown to him that he has a good work ethic + would understand the problems that we have to overcome each day + would work hand in hand with RV rather then in spite of him or against him. The last thing that RV wants is to have to worry about his coach airing dirty laundry over the airways anymore. Either on the radio, on the TV, or in person - he wants a team player, someone that he can trust... and you don't usually find someone like that by interviewing strangers.

UNT_playmaker · October 22, 2006

Please for the love of anything dont hire anything from this current coaching staff.

We have MAJOR Problems we got whalloped by Akt St and MTSU, what happened

Deloach sounds good, No High School coaches, We need a big name coach

Neuishal is good.

Can you imagine what would happen on this board if Ramon Flanignan accpets the head coaching position at UNT....

DeepGreen · October 22, 2006

Can you imagine what would happen on this board if Ramon Flanignan accpets the head coaching position at UNT....
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I hope your fingers just went into a "palsy" state after typing that!

PlummMeanGreen · October 22, 2006

Holy Cow! I can agree with parts of your above post, stebo. So what's next for mankind, the Apocolypse and Armageddon!?!?

But couldn't it also be as they often say, stebo, inasmuch that: "Strangers do make good bedfellows?" (I say that in a hetero' sort of way, of course). (Yet that in reference to your saying RV having to work with a stranger or someone he is not familiar).

But I would also wager that most higher ups at the majority of non-BCS outposts have never broken bread (or know personally) the kind of higher profile type hires that we might hire.

But in the future when the need comes I would hope that UNT leaders would look at our past with all the hirings that did not capture the imagination of most of our NT community and try the best they can to hire one that will cause the "lions and the lambs" of the UNT community to unite for the cause of getting this booming university's football program back on the right track.

Edited October 22, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

Arkstfan · October 22, 2006

HAVE A SLICE OF EITHER...............One question might be, Arkstfan, where will the 2006 SBC football champion (after the CUSA 4'th place team most likely schools our SBC champion "again" in the upcoming 2006 NO's Bowl) be ranked among all the other 119 D1-A schools when all is done and said after this 2006 college football campaign?
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Likely higher than last year, and that's one of our league goals isn't it?

Deleted the rest simply to save space.

Interesting about the Texas ties of your successful coaches. At Arkansas State Frosty England (early 1950's) was the only successful ASU coach who hadn't been assistant at ASU prior to being named head coach. Coach Roberts has only partially broken the mold because he was never an assistant at stAte but he played Division II ball in-state, was an assistant at that level, then head coach at that level, then at NW Louisiana before coming to ASU. The two years at NW State were his only years outside Arkansas, but he built his way by developing good relationships with high school coaches in Arkansas, Texas and Louisiana. Those relationships of trust opened doors in recruiting that might not have been open to an Arkansas State coming off three wins in two years. It seems that is has generally been the North Texas model as well.

A new coach cannot work a miracle and make sub-par talent suddenly champion talent but a new coach who can build a work ethic and a winning attitude can seem to be a miracle worker.

This is from the Jonesboro Sun after ASU's first win after Roberts arrived.

But the Indians played with emotion, taking their cue from staffers who were cheerleaders as well as coaches.
“There’s no doubt we’re going to do that. It’s just like I said last week and I pointed out to our team that I’m tired of the 30-year-olds being the only ones jumping up and down, high-fiving folks and hugging folks,” Roberts said. “I want to see that out of our football team and we saw that tonight.”

You don't see our staff bouncing around as much now as in 2002, because they no longer have to spark energy from the team or the fans any more, but when it was required, they did it.

PlummMeanGreen · October 22, 2006

Sorry, El Paso Eagle, about leaving those off the list.

Just curious (and there'd never by any way to know) but...........

...............I wonder which one of the above choices that those registered with GMG.com without UNT ties (and those who may even want to see MG football stay toward the middle or bottom of the SBC football race the next few years); anyway, I wonder who that group of non-UNT'ers would be casting their votes for?

FirefightnRick · October 22, 2006

Likely higher than last year, and that's one of our league goals isn't it?
Deleted the rest simply to save space.
Interesting about the Texas ties of your successful coaches. At Arkansas State Frosty England (early 1950's) was the only successful ASU coach who hadn't been assistant at ASU prior to being named head coach. Coach Roberts has only partially broken the mold because he was never an assistant at stAte but he played Division II ball in-state, was an assistant at that level, then head coach at that level, then at NW Louisiana before coming to ASU. The two years at NW State were his only years outside Arkansas, but he built his way by developing good relationships with high school coaches in Arkansas, Texas and Louisiana. Those relationships of trust opened doors in recruiting that might not have been open to an Arkansas State coming off three wins in two years. It seems that is has generally been the North Texas model as well.
A new coach cannot work a miracle and make sub-par talent suddenly champion talent but a new coach who can build a work ethic and a winning attitude can seem to be a miracle worker.
This is from the Jonesboro Sun after ASU's first win after Roberts arrived.
You don't see our staff bouncing around as much now as in 2002, because they no longer have to spark energy from the team or the fans any more, but when it was required, they did it.
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Not sure how to recall a post that far back or if it even exists anymore, but I predicted Roberts would do well at ASU when he was hired becuase of the success and teams he built at NWLSt. I'll never foget the day we all watched Scott Hall get benched at Texas Stadium against Texas Tech for the first half of the game to prove some unkown(to this day) and probably meaningless point, Coach Roberts Demon team was embarrasing TCU in Fort Worth. I remember thinking, damn that staff is going to move up soon, I wonder where?

Mark, do you recall the story Roberts tells about his attempt at golf? Pretty funny if true.

Rick

Arkstfan · October 22, 2006

Mark, do you recall the story Roberts tells about his attempt at golf? Pretty funny if true.
Rick
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I heard him tell it once after he was hired.

You might actually have stumbled on to the way to judge hiring established coaches.

Hollis & Co., at ASU lost to TCU, Nichols State, and Jacksonville State.

Roberts & Co., at NW State beat all of them.

In other words, hire somebody who can beat at least some of the teams you are losing too.

MeanGreenBuzz · October 22, 2006

The Clemson OC should be our new head coach. End of story.

Edited October 23, 2006 by MeanGreenBuzz

Arkstfan · October 22, 2006

Auburn's head coach should have been our head coach.

Tubberville was a former Lacewell assistant and set to take the job when Perkins quit 8 days before signing day. Tommy demanded a certain salary and to hire his own assistants. Since all the assistants had 11 months left on their contracts we couldn't afford to do both and he backed out. If Perkins had left for the NFL at the end of the year instead of before signing day things would have been a lot different at ASU.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Arkstfan

eulesseagle · October 22, 2006

Question: What do Assistant Coaches make at BCS schools??

Do many of them make more as an assistant at a BCS school than what they would make as a HC in the SBC??

I don't know.......just a question.

October 23, 2006

I'm sure that the majority would like to have a name coach that is well known in Texas because that is where the majority of our recruits and financial support will come from but we all know that likely won't happen.

RV has to first get a level of committment from the Board of Regeents. If he cannot convince them to spend a potentially large amount on a 'name' coach then it doesn't matter what we think, it's not going to happen.

Even if he get's a top committment from the BOR, he may not want to spend it unless he can get the right person. There are a few names that, if they would come, could raise the level of giving and put a much better product on the field. Recruits would respect them, which is of the utmost importance. If those few do not want to come to North Texas, then I'd look at the other options.

My personal preference would be a highly successful Division I-AA or II coach. Having been a successful head coach is invaluable. It requires game planning for offense, defense and special teams. It means that you have been able to instill a level of discipline and motivation for your entire squad. You have mastered clock management and learned to delegate responsibility. You have learned to a large extent the art of recruiting.

There are some excellent coordinators out there but they are much harder to judge. Can they handle the pressures of being a head coach? Many probably can but there are a thousand more details for a head coach than any coordinator has had to endure.

This hire is so critical for the future of this program, what with a new stadium, attendance and conference alignment possibly hanging in the balance. Although it is ultimately RV's decision, I would hope that he would seek the advice of an advisor, selection panel, or some form of input so that he feels good about his decision.

We have critiqued his hiring of other coaches but I am much more comfortable with his hiring a football coach because I believe that he knows that sport best.

DeepGreen · October 23, 2006

We have critiqued his hiring of other coaches but I am much more comfortable with his hiring a football coach because I believe that he knows that sport best.
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As pointed out on the "Dark Board", and I have to agree, RV had better do a full, legitimate search for a head football coach. No more of this "I'll offer my buddy at LSU(JJ), or the OC at Southern Miss. who I worked with before", the head coaching position at NT. A legitimate coaching search or DeepGreen won't be very happy with RV.

Edited October 23, 2006 by DeepGreen

PlummMeanGreen · October 23, 2006

As pointed out on the "Dark Board", and I have to agree, RV had better do a full, legitimate search for a head football coach. No more of this "I'll offer my buddy at LSU(JJ), or the OC at Southern Miss. who I worked with before", the head coaching position at NT. A legitimate coaching search or DeepGreen won't be very happy with RV.
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We need more than a one man seach committee like we had with Craig Helwig and thats for damn sure.

Surely those on our UNT Board of Regents who have the most interest in the direction of our football program will be monitoring all this "VERY" closely because as many of you have started posting and I will paraphrase each and every one of your theme: "We cannot afford to screw up the hiring of the next head football coach at UNT."