Dickey vs. The SBC

eulesseagle · October 17, 2006

If you take a look at each of the SBC schools disregarding FAU/FIU this is what we have since 1999 to present:

Arkansas State................31-56

LaLa...............................26-58

LaMo..............................23-66

Troy...............................61-38 (granted for some of that time they were 1-AA).

MTSU.............................37-48

UNT...............................38-51

We as a group, somewhat, may think that Dickey and staff are not doing that well but comparing the other schools in the SBC for the same time period......then UNT is fairing pretty well.

In reality UNT is doing just as well as everyone else in the SBC when it comes to OOC wins......and......is about average when you compare UNT to the rest of the mid-major programs.

Ok, we should be doing better since we are in the "hotbed" of college recruiting.

Ok, we should be doing better because of what we did 25-50 years ago under various coaches.

The reality is that "times have changed in college football" over the last 25-50 years.

The reality is that no matter what should have/could have/might have happened UNT is in the SBC today and not the Big East like old conference partner Louisville or the CUSA like old conference "pards" Memphis and Cincinatti.

We know that Fouts Field, without any changes and according to what RV said, was not a factor to keep UNT out of CUSA.....and.....evidently not a factor concerning the WAC invitation.

Go back and take a look at UNT's record compared to the other members of the SBC and we do not look all that bad.

UNT still needs a conference shake up for us to have a chance to move up to a better conference in the Mid-Majors.

In the mean time fill the stands at Fouts and pack the Pit and watch Johnny Jones put the whoooooop on who he is playing.......there should not be any excuse for those of us who have season tickets in football why we should not attend every BB game in the Pit this year to boost the attendance and support JJ!

Edited October 17, 2006 by eulesseagle

Coffee and TV · October 17, 2006

Arguing Dickey's performance & past records is really a moot point right now.

NT03 · October 17, 2006

In reality UNT is doing just as well as everyone else in the SBC when it comes to OOC wins......and......is about average when you compare UNT to the rest of the mid-major programs.

I think everyone on here is looking at the Bigger Potiental picture here. We dont want to be compared with the ULL's or ULM's of the world.

As far as being a mid-major program , we are a far cry away. As much as you or I might not like it we live in a what have you done for me lately world. Dickey and staff could have had a top 25 ranking 2/3 years ago , but all that wouldnt even matter now Bottom line we have lost 14 out of the last 18 games with more losses looking evident in our near future.

I have a good feeling about JJs team this year with 4-star transfer Wooden coming in ..guy was the 19th ranked kid in the nation coming out of HS & Davis returning we should have a good shot at a SBC title.. Fill the Stands!!

Edited October 17, 2006 by NT03

FirefightnRick · October 17, 2006

Arkansas St: Since '99 has 4, 1-A Out of Conference wins including this years two wins against Army and Memphis. Their other was against 1-11 Tulsa in '02 and 2-9 ULL in '99.

ULL: Has 5. Several of which were against SBC teams prior to it's inception.

ULM: Has 4. 3 of which are against SBC teams before the SBC or becoming members.

MTSU: Has 13. 3 against Vanderbilt and most of the rest coming against future SBC teams.

FAU: Has 4. One of which was against us in '04, their provisional 1-A season.

FIU: Has 0.

Troy: Has 8. One of which was against us in '01, which was their 1-A qualifying year as an indy. Also has notable wins over Mizzou, UAB and two wins against Marshall.

NT: Has 6. 4 of which came against Baylor, Texas Tech, SMU and Cincy.

Unless I'm missing it NT, Troy and MTSU are the only SBC teams with wins over BCS conference teams since '99.

There were some very close games against BCS programs as well.

NT lost to Tech by 6 in '99 with McClain running to the goal line on a bomb from Hall, but with a DB trailing him he didn't know it while holding the loaf of bread out front for all to see and ends up getting stripped from behind at the 1(Leon Lett Style) with 9 seconds left in the game. Against Arizona Cobbs was stopped at goal line, replay showed he got in, then McClain catches another long pass from Hall and while running towards the endzone is again stripped of the ball at the AU 14 yard line in a 5 point loss in '02.

Troy lost to LSU by 4 in '04, lost by 3 to Mississippi St. in '02, lost by 10 to South Carolina in '04, lost by 7 to #9 Florida State this year.

MTSU lost to Mizzou by 1 in '03, lost to Alabama by 5 in '02.

Arkansas State lost to Oklahoma State by 10 in '05, lost to Ol' Miss by 7 in '04, lost to NC State by 7 in '00,

ULL lost to Arkansas by 7 in '02, lost to South Carolina by 7 in '03,

FIU lost to Maryland this season by 4.

ULM lost to Kansas by 2 this season.

Rick

Edited October 17, 2006 by FirefightnRick

PlummMeanGreen · October 17, 2006

Troy lost to LSU by 4 in '04, lost by 3 to Mississippi St. in '02, lost by 10 to South Carolina in '04, lost by 7 to #9 Florida State this year.
MTSU lost to Mizzou by 1 in '03, lost to Alabama by 5 in '02.
Arkansas State lost to Oklahoma State by 10 in '05, lost to Ol' Miss by 7 in '04, lost to NC State by 7 in '00,
ULL lost to Arkansas by 7 in '02, lost to South Carolina by 7 in '03,
FIU lost to Maryland this season by 4.
ULM lost to Kansas by 2 this season.
Rick
←

Good research, FFR...Didn't realize (or I had just forgotten) that many "close" scores by some SBC schools and some of those very recent.

The Troy U Trojan win over #19 ranked Missouri to open their new (rebuilt from scratch) football stadium 3 yrs. ago is the one that I'm sure impressed many of us the most.

This Fall UL-Monroe is having a tough luck sorta' year with some close losses. Notice after checking our schedule that our last game of this season just happens to be in Monroe, LA, too. The ULM coach seems to have a real attitude toward UNT for whatever the reason. Guess all that got jump-started with his comments on Super Jamario?

IMO, the season-ending UNT/ULM game in Monroe will most likely have ramifications affecting the long-term future of NT football with those ramifications affecting 2 groups from within the UNT community, ie, those who want a new direction at a higher profile among our peers in NCAA D1-A or those of our constituency who are satisfied with what is going on right now with (only) SBC success being suffice for that group.

kathy · October 17, 2006

Arkansas St: Since '99 has 4, 1-A Out of Conference wins including this years two wins against Army and Memphis. Their other was against 1-11 Tulsa in '02 and 2-9 ULL in '99.
ULL: Has 5. Several of which were against SBC teams prior to it's inception.
ULM: Has 4. 3 of which are against SBC teams before the SBC or becoming members.
MTSU: Has 13. 3 against Vanderbilt and most of the rest coming against future SBC teams.
FAU: Has 4. One of which was against us in '04, their provisional 1-A season.
FIU: Has 0.
Troy: Has 8. One of which was against us in '01, which was their 1-A qualifying year as an indy. Also has notable wins over Mizzou, UAB and two wins against Marshall.
NT: Has 6. 4 of which came against Baylor, Texas Tech, SMU and Cincy.
Unless I'm missing it NT, Troy and MTSU are the only SBC teams with wins over BCS conference teams since '99.
There were some very close games against BCS programs as well.
NT lost to Tech by 6 in '99 with McClain running to the goal line on a bomb from Hall, but with a DB trailing him he didn't know it while holding the loaf of bread out front for all to see and ends up getting stripped from behind at the 1(Leon Lett Style) with 9 seconds left in the game. Against Arizona Cobbs was stopped at goal line, replay showed he got in, then McClain catches another long pass from Hall and while running towards the endzone is again stripped of the ball at the AU 14 yard line in a 5 point loss in '02.
Troy lost to LSU by 4 in '04, lost by 3 to Mississippi St. in '02, lost by 10 to South Carolina in '04, lost by 7 to #9 Florida State this year.
MTSU lost to Mizzou by 1 in '03, lost to Alabama by 5 in '02.
Arkansas State lost to Oklahoma State by 10 in '05, lost to Ol' Miss by 7 in '04, lost to NC State by 7 in '00,
ULL lost to Arkansas by 7 in '02, lost to South Carolina by 7 in '03,
FIU lost to Maryland this season by 4.
ULM lost to Kansas by 2 this season.
Rick
←

FFR, if you are using this years scheduling as you did with stAte, dont forget to include the Cajuns victories over E Michigan and Houston.

Thanks.

shaft · October 17, 2006

Why not post the stat that really matters, UNT's win record against the Belt?

KingDL1 · October 17, 2006

Why not post the stat that really matters, UNT's win record against the Belt?
←

Not sure that stat really matters to many people in the DFW area.

But a nice stat, would be to see how many wins we have had in the last nine years against teams that finished the year with a winning record, meaning better than 500 season. Then determine how many of those were in a competitive Conference.

shaft · October 17, 2006

That is a good stat to use. It makes since to look at the team this way:

Record against D1

Record against Conference

Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams.

Points Scored/Allowed is a bad standard, how many points you can more on a team doesn't really tell you anyting or are you one of the Boise State fans that think the Bronco's should be ranked number one?

PlummMeanGreen · October 17, 2006

Not sure that stat really matters to many people in the DFW area.
But a nice stat, would be to see how many wins we have had in the last nine years against teams that finished the year with a winning record, meaning better than 500 season. Then determine how many of those were in a competitive Conference.
←

KingDL1, do you have such stats; that is, the number of teams we beat in the last 9 years that did have winning records?

El Paso Eagle · October 17, 2006

KingDL1, do you have such stats; that is, the number of teams we beat in the last 9 years that did have winning records?
←

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/NorthTexas.htm

Try this

El Paso Eagle · October 17, 2006

Wins against 1A teams who ended the year with winning records

2005 - None

2004 - None

2003 - None (Troy ended at 6-6)

2002 - 1 - NMSU 7-5 (CINCINNATI finished @ 7-7)

2001 - 1 - MTSU 8-3

2000 - NONE

1999 - 2 Tech @ 6-5 and Boise @ 10-3

1998 - 2 Boise @ 6-5 and Nevada @ 6-5

1997 - 1 - Tech @ 6-5 (Utah State ended @ 6-6)

LoveMG · October 17, 2006

Why not post the stat that really matters, UNT's win record against the Belt?
←

because it is the same quality as our win record vs. 1-AA.

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 17, 2006

Wins against 1A teams who ended the year with winning records
2005 - None
2004 - None
2003 - None (Troy ended at 6-6)
2002 - 1 - NMSU 7-5 (CINCINNATI finished @ 7-7)
2001 - 1 - MTSU 8-3
2000 - NONE
1999 - 2 Tech @ 6-5 and Boise @ 10-3
1998 - 2 Boise @ 6-5 and Nevada @ 6-5
1997 - 1 - Tech @ 6-5 (Utah State ended @ 6-6)
←

WOW, interesting how years 2000, 2004, and 2006 (you can argue a rebuilding year) in which we either were winning the conf or coming off winning the conf, we had none. Yet in the years that we were not winning conf games, we had three straight years in which we did.

On another note, Grego on the ticket just ask if ANY sportscaster in America can figure out the BCS crap? No, neither can anyone else.

PlummMeanGreen · October 18, 2006

Wins against 1A teams who ended the year with winning records
2005 - None
2004 - None
2003 - None (Troy ended at 6-6)
2002 - 1 - NMSU 7-5 (CINCINNATI finished @ 7-7)
2001 - 1 - MTSU 8-3
2000 - NONE
1999 - 2 Tech @ 6-5 and Boise @ 10-3
1998 - 2 Boise @ 6-5 and Nevada @ 6-5
1997 - 1 - Tech @ 6-5 (Utah State ended @ 6-6)
←

I was not a math major, but I think I have counted..............."7" ? ! ? ! ?

Edited October 18, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

KingDL1 · October 18, 2006

Wins against 1A teams who ended the year with winning records
2005 - None
2004 - None
2003 - None (Troy ended at 6-6)
2002 - 1 - NMSU 7-5 (CINCINNATI finished @ 7-7)
2001 - 1 - MTSU 8-3
2000 - NONE
1999 - 2 Tech @ 6-5 and Boise @ 10-3
1998 - 2 Boise @ 6-5 and Nevada @ 6-5
1997 - 1 - Tech @ 6-5 (Utah State ended @ 6-6)
←

Isn't that crazy!

DD was not here in 97 so that is a total of 6 and only two since 1999, and if you throw out the crappy conferences then only one quality win under DD, that being Tech

shaft · October 18, 2006

Um... are you so biased you can't acknowledge the facts right in front of you.

The bowl win over Cincy was a quality win. The win over SMU is going be a quality win. And you don't just dimiss the conference record. Conference games matter. The majority of the season is played against conference teams.

Like I said, total wins, conference wins, and quality wins tell the story of a program (especially when you look at those stats in relationship to other programs.)

LoveMG · October 18, 2006

the facts right in front of you.
The bowl win over Cincy was a quality win. The win over SMU is going be a quality win. And you don't just dimiss the conference record.
←

how are wins over .500 teams ranked above #75 quality? conference wins over sub average teams ranked above #100 are not quality either. get a grip man

UNTFan23 · October 18, 2006

Um... are you so biased you can't acknowledge the facts right in front of you.
The bowl win over Cincy was a quality win. The win over SMU is going be a quality win. And you don't just dimiss the conference record. Conference games matter. The majority of the season is played against conference teams.
Like I said, total wins, conference wins, and quality wins tell the story of a program (especially when you look at those stats in relationship to other programs.)
←

Do Big West games count?

eulesseagle · October 18, 2006

Other than the people on this board who sometimes tend to over analyze topics and stats.......will anyone ever remember quality wins that "any" team has over a period of time??? I believe that people have a tendancy to remember the "final" W-L for that year and the "almost upsets" and "upsets" that a team embraces.

UNT embraces wins over Texas Tech, SMU & Baylor.

UNT embraces the "almost upsets" over Texas, TCU & Arizona.

The SBC is just what it is and we should come to realize that there is nothing that we can do to change it.

1. The SBC is the lowest ranked D-1 conference in America, today.

2. The SBC has the worst OOC record of "ANY" D-1A conference.

Just like Joe Friday once said, "Just the facts (mam)."

On the upside and taken from the www.ncaabbs.com web site from the CUSA board the SBC is currently 3-3, this year, on match ups. To the chagrin of CUSA they feel that the SBC is actually improving.

But getting back to the topic......UNT's overall W-L record since 1999 is better than any other SBC team......non withstanding all the arguments on who has the better quality wins, total rushing yards, total overall yards, fewer interceptions and the plethora of other stats that there are out in the "books."

The point is for what we currently have at UNT, since 1999, is better than any other SBC team in the conference.

In my heart, and you know that I am right, UNT still has brighter days ahead. Unfortunately we just have to wait until something happens.

PlummMeanGreen · October 18, 2006

Um... are you so biased you can't acknowledge the facts right in front of you.
The bowl win over Cincy was a quality win. The win over SMU is going be a quality win. And you don't just dimiss the conference record. Conference games matter. The majority of the season is played against conference teams.
Like I said, total wins, conference wins, and quality wins tell the story of a program (especially when you look at those stats in relationship to other programs.)
←

REVISED

And come on shaft, aren't you a bit biased, too?

A big determiner of a programs growth and acceptance (by more than just those who post on GMG.com) are how many go thru its home stadium turnstiles. Hellsbells, most non BCS coaches contracts have attendance clauses written in. Do we at UNT have that? Of course not...............Anyone want to find out why? Get back with us when you do, right?

15,000 (+/-) per game averages at Fouts Field most any year (and bowl years included) for a school that has boomed with such uncanny growth as UNT's right along with the city and county our school is located is the part that no one who supports the direction we've had the last 9 years can ever seem to explain as far as why we've basically had a "no growth" scenario in the UNT football attendance department OR to put it another way...............why a DD Ball style offense (and football in general) has not caught the imagination of more UNT students, alums and fans in general.

Folks, we have about 6 million Metroplex citizens 1 hour from our campus football stadium. So can we now also assume 15K per home game averages for MG football games for most of the last decade from some is just as acceptable as "6" UNT football wins against D1-A schools who have over .500 W/L records and those six wins spread out over 9 years? If you were a student in much of the 70's with Mean Green football schedules that included wins and closer-played-games you would not be on this forum trying to justify mediocrity and what we've had for much of the last quarter century.

At UNT during much of that previous 25 years, dont' we have to really 'fess up & admit the truth that we are just not very adept or good at hiring those who would take our athletic program much higher than above "C" level (if one would like a grade for most of the last 25 years that those who don't daily live in some kind of a MG Fantasy Land would most likely agree); and FWIW, many of that group would probably give it less than a C. NOTE: As far as varsity basketball at UNT, arent' we all glad we have had the Super Pit for use at UNT graduation time as are the many area high schools who have put it go good use as well?

You know, its just sometimes very hard for some of us to believe that UNT is even located in the Lone Star State where Football Is King and most of its Texas college's alums know their football; that is, they know a good college football program from a bad one; they know a college football program on the rise compared to one that is going nowhere fast. If you like SBC success, then you and what will be a shrinking number of you will get all you want with our present direction--that is a guarantee.

I do know this, there are some very nicely paid folks at UNT who really don't have to work hard; that is work hard and produce results that show vast improvement across the board. VISIBLE RESULTS? How about at some point having more than 15K per home game averages which we were doing those kind of numbers long B4 all the recent boom growth on campus, in Denton and Denton County which should mean growth at the turnstiles?

YOU SAY BUTTS IN SEATS? Yes, butts in seats are the visible results that even many non-BCS coaches would have attendance clauses written into their contracts so that when there is vast improvement at the turnstiles, that they would get a nice pay raise with it (which the attendance increase would help pay out--------------AND not merely wins over the "sisters of the poor" which has yet to impress many inside or outside the DFW Metroplex and fewer in the UNT community each succeeding year. Who out there just cannot see any of this we have happening before our very eyes? For those having a difficult time focussing in on what is happening in our UNT Athletic Dept. you need to get your green-tinted glasses prescription strengthened and get that done prettty damn quick, too.

VISIBLE RESULTS? Hey! If we didn't have those tennis facilities being built at Eagle Point Campus, would we even have a Mean Green tennis program as one of our required NCAA's program to meet Title IX; that is, a varsity tennis program of any significance or substance? So aren't any of these minor sports facilities being built or remodeled being done so UNT can even stay in the inter-collegiate athletic business period?

ALSO...........those who would praise mediocrity using a bunch of sub .500 year-in- and-year-out SBC programs as more obvious proof that your and our school's athletic dept. bar is really not set very high on an annual basis at all. AND............ those who would recommend pay raises and contract extensions (which has us a bit locked into possibly even more future mediocrity, now doesn't it?) And to some of our best alums who have been duped by so called celebrity and who get "goo goo" eyed because someone from the UNT athletic dept. gave some of that group the time of day? FWIW............the only real celebrity I know on the UNT campus is in our History Department and that "celebrity's" name is Dr. Randolph Campbell who is the best damn history professor in the entire USA for my money.

Edited October 19, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

UNTFan23 · October 18, 2006

Found some interesting stats ...

Big West

Overall

Win %..Gms..W...L...T

0.182..11...2...9...0

Home

Win %..Gms..W...L...T

0.333..6....2...4...0

Away

Win %..Gms..W...L...T

0.000..5....0...5...0

Sun Belt

Overall

Win %..Gms..W...L...T

0.806..31..25...6...0

Home

Win %..Gms..W...L...T

0.750..16..12...4...0

Away

Win %..Gms..W...L...T

0.867..15..13...2...0

For all games under the Dickery era broken down by conference, click here

Edited October 18, 2006 by UNTFan23

Texas Stranger · October 18, 2006

And the opposite side, losses to 1-A teams with losing records.

Not sure what this represents, other than we generally don't schedule creampuffs in OOC (except for SMU )

2005 - Kansas St (yes, the only one)

2004 - Baylor

2003 - None

2002 - Arizona (should be none)

2001 - ULM

2000 - Baylor, Utah St, Idaho, Ark St

1999 - Baylor, LSU, UNLV, Nevada, Ark St, Utah St

FirefightnRick · October 18, 2006

That is a good stat to use. It makes since to look at the team this way:
Record against D1
Record against Conference
Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams.
←

MTSU: Record against D1...31-42

Record against Conference...24-22(Played Indy in '99 and '00 but I counted games against the same mid level teams or future conference mates.)

Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams...5-29

Arkansas State: Record against D1....25-53

Record against Conference...20-25

Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams...3-28

Troy: Record against D1...18-33(Only can count back to the 2000 season)

Record against Conference...15-13(Indy from '00 thru '03 but I counted games against the same mid level teams or future conference mates).

Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams...3-24

North Texas:....Record against D1...42-51

Record against Conference...29-6

Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams...7-33

ULL..................Record against D1...20-54

Record against Conference...17-27(Also Indy from '99-'00 but counted games against same med level teams or future conference mates)

Record against Winning Record/Bowl Teams...1-29

These are the only other schools in the SBC you can measure NT against.

To me this isn't the ONLY best way to measure a program in one sense because I had to look it up. The general public won't and view you only as how they remember you in the media. As I constantly get the "North Texas sucks/y'all can't beat anyone" comment at work I have to remind that we do have a win over cross town school SMU this year. People mostly remember seeing us getting throttled at home against unknowns such as Tulsa and MTSU although as I posted earlier the OT win over FIU did raise some interest in that it was an exciting game to watch.

Also a record against D1 for one school could be completely different for another due to scheduling. Does a 3 point win over a 1-5 Memphis program measure that much farther over a 7 point loss to a #9 (4-2) Florida State program?

Notice how many more games NT has played against D1 programs than the other teams above? NT has played fewer 1-AA games over the past 7 1/2 seasons than the other programs but that could be due to conference affiliation in the Big West vs Troy, ULL and MTSU playing Indy during the same time. Some will point out that NT has HAD to play a much tougher schedule overall, but then again when other programs do play the tougher parts of their OOC schedules they have taken good advantage of it. Most see it as an OPPORTUNITY and most importantly you don't hear their staffs' complaining to the media during those weeks about what they don't have as an excuse as to why they have to play those games in the first place.

Then there is the measure of where a program is headed? Most who have any knowledge of our conference would say NT is headed in the toilet whereas MTSU and Arkansas St. and ULL are seen as on the rise but who knows what the future holds for us? There is a lot of talent on this NT team and in conference it could turn around quickly.

As for how we measure up overall with other conference mates I would say for now we are probably running third behind MTSU and Troy. Since '99 we have 2 more quality wins than MTSU and 4 more than Troy but MTSU has only been playing D-1(Bowl Eligible) for 6 years and Troy for 5.

Rick

Edited October 18, 2006 by FirefightnRick