Question about RF

[MeanGreen61]

Edited October 10, 2006 by MeanGreen61

[NT80]

Heck the same MTSU team that absolutely sucked the last couple of years all of the suddent can play with intensity and some success against Lousiville (yeah I know it got out of hand late) but lets not expect our coaches to have our guys ready.

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Old MUTS coach vs. NT = 0 - 5 yrs.

New MUTS coach vs. NT = 35 - 0

Note the changing variable in the above equation: Old/New Coach

Edited October 10, 2006 by NT80

[flyonthewall]

hell, I bet if Ramon played the new coach on PS2, he might win. The problem is, these game are not played on PS2.

P.S. coach Flanigan. good luck on PS2.

[the green rokemi]

You could make a case for Ramon Flanigan needing to go, given the offensive woes.  For me, though, I see a team that stands to be downright explosive if the offensive line is able to get ANYTHING going at all.  Through six games, I've seen high school level play.  No holes in the running game for Jamario, teams getting pressure rushing 3 on 6, guys getting beat like rag dolls and flat out missing assignments.

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Yes, this is what I have been saying for awhile now. We are running close to the same offense we always have so it's not our offense, it's the fact our line is awful. When you look at our line though they look as big and strong as ever. What's the difference? Our O-line coach is terrible...which was obvious when we hired him away from powerhouse Army...

Andy Brewster for our next O-line coach!

[NT03]

ILL ADMIT I HAVENT READ EVERY THREAD UP HERE ON THIS WHOLE RF THING ..I DO HAVE OTHER STUFF TO DO , BUT WANT TO SAY MY CENTS SINCE EVERYONE ELSE IS.

1) IF RF LEFT THE AFTER THE 7 OT GAME SO QUICKLY , I REALLY DONT CARE WHERE OR WHAT HE WAS OFF TO DO. BOTTOM LINE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE W/ HIS TEAM TO ENJOY THE VICTORY.

2) SOMEONE SAYS RF SPENDS 70+ HRS A WEEK..DONT KNOW IF U COULD EVER PROVE THAT BUT HE TRULY DOES.. WOULDT YOU , IF YOU WORKED 70 HRS ON 1 PROJECT ( TO WIN ) THROUGHT THE TO WHOLE WEEK TO ATTAIN A GOAL & IT FINALLY CAME THRU IN SOMEWHAT DRAMITIC , RECORD BREAKING FASHION. WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO JUMP AROUND AND ENJOY IT ?? TO ME ANYTHING LESS THAN SOME SERIOUS DRUGS , SEX & ROCK N ROLL AFTERWARDS WOULD SEEM FITTING LOL!!

3) SOME SAY RF IS NOT AT TOTAL FAULT B/C OF THE CRAPPY PLAY OF THE O-LINE. CAN HE NOT GET IN TO SOMEONE'S FACE AND TELL THEM THAT ITS THEIR JOB TO HIT SOMEONE? EVERY OFFENSIVE PLAY EVER DRAWN UP HAS STARTED W/ A O-LINE

Edited October 11, 2006 by NT03

[emmitt01]

Yes, this is what I have been saying for awhile now.  We are running close to the same offense we always have so it's not our offense, it's the fact our line is awful.  When you look at our line though they look as big and strong as ever.  What's the difference?  Our O-line coach is terrible...which was obvious when we hired him away from powerhouse Army...

Andy Brewster for our next O-line coach!

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I just wanted to highlight one thing you said...We are running close to the same offense we always have BINGO!!! Teams have evolved their defenses to shut down the most predictable offense any of us have ever seen.

Are we to believe that after more than half a decade with the same OC that we can't figure out how to add a few new wrinkles or how to surprise somebody? And don't give me this "we don't have an o-line" crap...we don't even TRY new plays so with or without an o-line you could defend this garbage.

[Zeke]

Emmitt is right-on on this. We ARE running the exact same stuff we always have. Defenses have adjusted. Southern Miss made a blueprint for how to defend our offensive "attack" (attack really shouldn't be used in a DD offense). What did we do in response? We did the exact same thing over and over again.

In summary: The defenses adjusted to our offense - we can't/won't counter their adjustments.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

I just wanted to highlight one thing you said...We are running close to the same offense we always have  BINGO!!!  Teams have evolved their defenses to shut down the most predictable offense any of us have ever seen. 

Are we to believe that after more than half a decade with the same OC that we can't figure out how to add a few new wrinkles or how to surprise somebody?  And don't give me this "we don't have an o-line" crap...we don't even TRY new plays so with or without an o-line you could defend this garbage.

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Garbage is exactly what it is. AND you hit the nail on the head. The other teams in our conference have had year after year to figure our unchanging offense out. They have it now and that's why we are not winning anymore. No way MTSU has the players that are 35 points better than we have.

[emmitt01]

Emmitt is right-on on this.  We ARE running the exact same stuff we always have.  Defenses have adjusted.  Southern Miss made a blueprint for how to defend our offensive "attack" (attack really shouldn't be used in a DD offense).  What did we do in response?  We did the exact same thing over and over again. 

In summary:  The defenses adjusted to our offense - we can't/won't counter their adjustments.

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Why is it your posts remind me of a book report?

Mas amor por tu mi primo.

[FirefightnRick]

What do you call if you are the offensive coordinator?  Please, anyone tell me.  Actually, scroll down right now and post a reply if you can name me ANYTHING that would work if your offensive line is tanking.

Inside running plays?  Nope.  Not if there are three guys in the backfield to meet your running back on every play.

Outside running plays?  Nope.  Not if the defense is sitting in contain on the running back, the offensive line can't kick out quick enough, and the backside run protection fails.

Short pass plays?  Nope.  Not when the bulk of the defense is looking short pass or run.  Think about it.  If corners are playing up close (as they have been all season), and the linebackers are waiting in that shallow contain, where do you throw it?  The slant or quick in?  Over two or three linebackers, leading him just enough to get away from the defending corner but not so much that he gets pasted by the safety? The quick out?  With a CB sitting in a shallow zone?  The fade?  Against bump coverage and with a single safety deep reading playaction post?

Long pass plays?  Nope.  Not if anything past a three step drop is going to be questionable in terms of pass protection.  Shoot, if Woody didn't have 2 seconds against a 4 man rush, what happens when they blitz?  Even if you manage to get up a lob, the deep safety comes over and picks it off (this has happened three or four times so far).

How about screens and dumpoffs?  For a while, they'll work, but what happens when you dip into the bag one too many times?  For the answer to that question, take a look back at the pick-six FIU had.

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Oh Lord! Where do I start? Maybe I'll simply go with what Emmitt said, and that is show me proof that it WON'T work?

If I had to suggest one thing I'd go with the sentiment that many of our Lettermen are saying right now and that is: If your be-damned on running the ball then why not run a running offense such as the Triple Option? Navy and Air Force has done it for years successfully because they know they can't recruit certain types of athletes others can and that their opponents will only spend one week working on it and won't see it again before or afterwards. And then if our 5 O linemen still can't get the job done I insert an underclassman. If he can't then the next guy and the next guy until I'm down to the Tuba players in the Green Brigade.

To simply imply nothing will work because this or that will happen when it hasn't all been tried is shortsighted. Did you see the crossing drag route Strock called that took the ball down to the one for FIU? I gave Strock huge props for trying to put it into the endzone rather than trying to 1. Either prove the running it up the middle against a 7 and 8 man front will work. or 2. Trying to prove that our field goal kicker is better than yours?

Illuvius I got an interesting call today in response to your post and I have to say I simply don't understand how it is that you believe we have tried it all or think we would fail if we did? Do you not realize that defenses do not have to worry about the field between the hashmarks and 10 yards deep aginst us? The reason? We don't attack it through the air and never have. That is a HUGE amount of the field that the other team does not have to be concerned with. HUGE!!!!!!!!!!! I'm willing to bet there is zero film to prove to a D coordinator that his LB's should be concerned about the tightend dragging across in front of or behind him during a pass read?

In closing I might just painfully remind everyone that the stats speak loud and clear. You are what you are and we are working on rounding out our offensive average at about the 109th worse offense over nine years and counting. Amazingly we are now 118 yards per game worse than U. of Buffalo who is under first year coach Turner Gill.

Rick

Edited October 11, 2006 by FirefightnRick

[UNTFan23]

What do you call if you are the offensive coordinator? Please, anyone tell me. Actually, scroll down right now and post a reply if you can name me ANYTHING that would work if your offensive line is tanking.

Inside running plays? Nope. Not if there are three guys in the backfield to meet your running back on every play.

Outside running plays? Nope. Not if the defense is sitting in contain on the running back, the offensive line can't kick out quick enough, and the backside run protection fails.

Short pass plays? Nope. Not when the bulk of the defense is looking short pass or run. Think about it. If corners are playing up close (as they have been all season), and the linebackers are waiting in that shallow contain, where do you throw it? The slant or quick in? Over two or three linebackers, leading him just enough to get away from the defending corner but not so much that he gets pasted by the safety? The quick out? With a CB sitting in a shallow zone? The fade? Against bump coverage and with a single safety deep reading playaction post?

Long pass plays? Nope. Not if anything past a three step drop is going to be questionable in terms of pass protection. Shoot, if Woody didn't have 2 seconds against a 4 man rush, what happens when they blitz? Even if you manage to get up a lob, the deep safety comes over and picks it off (this has happened three or four times so far).

How about screens and dumpoffs? For a while, they'll work, but what happens when you dip into the bag one too many times? For the answer to that question, take a look back at the pick-six FIU had.

What do you do if you are the offensive coordinator? Just sit back and shoulder the blame, continuing to put in your time to find something that might work.

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Why else do opposing defenses only use one safety and move the other one up to a LB position? They're not afraid of our passing game. When all we run is WR screens (don't get me started on that one ) and post routes, all a safety really has to worry about is double covering Quinn.

It's easy to say our passing game will fail when we really don't have a very effective one to begin with. We need to have more then 2 passing plays that we consistantly use. That crossing route behind out LBs was an excellent call at an excellent time. I wish we had the creativity to make such a call.

I especially loved it when you basically said we're damned if we do and damned if we don't regarding our offense Illuvius. Sorry to say, no defense is ever perfect. How do you counter a blizting defense? A quick slant pass (to a TE maybe?) or RB screen because someone is bound to have one on one coverage. Stopping the run often means that you'll be vulnerable if suddenly the offense comes out with 4 WR to spread the field.

Football in part is a chess match, but instead of playing with all the pieces and using them to their fullest ability, sometimes it feels like all NT uses is the pawns because it's the only way we know how.

I'll go so far as to say the only reason we were so successfull against SMU was because we were unpredictable. Not once during the FIU game did I sit there in the stands thinking to myself "that was a slick call we just made that really caught the defense off gaurd". Even the Flea Flicker that was intercepted wasn't surprising cause we use it too much.

I bet you I can count the number of 5-7 yard passing plays we made on one hand ... Not because they didn't work (due to QB being rushed, etc), but because we never call but just a few a game. However, that's the bread and butter for the other team's offense cause we let them do it to us all night long.

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got." Until we decide to do something different offensively, we'll never be able to do much better then 150 yds total offense a game the rest of the season.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

didn't he recruit mean Joe?

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No, but he did recruit Mean Chris....all 5-8, 160 pounds of him. My memory's poor but Chris Neal is the only player that I can recall RF recruiting.

[the green rokemi]

I just wanted to highlight one thing you said...We are running close to the same offense we always have  BINGO!!!  Teams have evolved their defenses to shut down the most predictable offense any of us have ever seen. 

Are we to believe that after more than half a decade with the same OC that we can't figure out how to add a few new wrinkles or how to surprise somebody?  And don't give me this "we don't have an o-line" crap...we don't even TRY new plays so with or without an o-line you could defend this garbage.

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I some what agree. I was making the point that before against the SunBelt they would line 8 in the box and we would simply over power their defense, but now our O-line is so terrible that nothing works and I doubt any "wrinkle" would work consistently enough to make a difference until the O-line problem is fixed. Do I think we need to throw deep more often? Yes. Do I think the WR screen will get Quinn killed? Yes, and I screamed at the coach's box during the game telling them so. Tell me what new play will save the offense? Our RBs don't even trust the O-line, the majority of run plays up the middle they bounce outside because they don't trust the hole to be there!

[TIgreen01]

Oh Lord!  Where do I start?  Maybe I'll simply go with what Emmitt said, and that is show me proof that it WON'T work?

If I had to suggest one thing I'd go with the sentiment that many of our Lettermen are saying right now and that is:  If your be-damned on running the ball then why not run a running offense such as the Triple Option?  Navy and Air Force has done it for years successfully because they know they can't recruit certain types of athletes others can and that their opponents will only spend one week working on it and won't see it again before or afterwards.  And then if our 5 O linemen still can't get the job done I insert an underclassman.  If he can't then the next guy and the next guy until I'm down to the Tuba players in the Green Brigade. 

To simply imply nothing will work because this or that will happen when it hasn't all been tried is shortsighted.  Did you see the crossing drag route Strock called that took the ball down to the one for FIU?  I gave Strock huge props for trying to put it into the endzone rather than trying to 1. Either prove the running it up the middle against a 7 and 8 man front will work. or 2. Trying to prove that our field goal kicker is better than yours? 

Illuvius I got an interesting call today in response to your post and I have to say I simply don't understand how it is that you believe we have tried it all or think we would fail if we did?  Do you not realize that defenses do not have to worry about the field between the hashmarks and 10 yards deep aginst us?  The reason?  We don't attack it through the air and never have.  That is a HUGE amount of the field that the other team does not have to be concerned with.  HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!  I'm willing to bet there is zero film to prove to a D coordinator that his LB's should be concerned about  the tightend dragging across in front of or behind him during a pass read? 

In closing I might just painfully remind everyone that the stats speak loud and clear.  You are what you are and we are working on rounding out our offensive average at about the 109th worse offense over nine years and counting.  Amazingly we are now 118 yards per game worse than U. of Buffalo who is under first year coach Turner Gill. 

Rick

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Good post. Isn't the spread offense that half of the country (seems like!) is employing used to combat the very thing that we complain about here---can't recruit blue chippers to compete with the REALLY big boys (though it seems we just flat out refuse to go after any). TTech did it and now consistently beats tamu and gives UT a scare seemingly every year--not to mention their tilts with OU. Tech is a big boy, but not big enough to recruit like those 3, but now they compete every year with them. BU made the switch to the spread this year to attempt the same thing....to be able to compete against bigger and better athletes---Guy Morriss said as much, and added that eventually they'd have to recruit better. Either way, I don't mean this post to come off sounding like I want the spread installed here at NT...

Most people look at our running game and think that we need bigger and better athletes to run it properly. Is that what the zone blocking scheme is trying to counter?...is it philosophically easier to run this scheme with the caliber players that we recruit? If that's the case, then is the problem that we are just not coaching it well anymore? Are our lineman not bright enough to grasp it?--cause they certainly appear to be bigger and stronger than our past lines...

[calvin]

I have wondered this point myself quite a bit. Why have we gotten so bad ? One thing that has bothered me though, is why have we not gotten more advanced in the passing game ? We are the worst team in the country at using the forward pass. With how well are running game has been, how have we not advanced what we have done as far as passing goes ?

I personally always liked that 9 out of 10 times we were going to have a 100 yard rusher and in the SUn Belt our rushing game would dominate. What has gone wrong there ? Do we just not have any athletes anymore or what ? I dont want to say it is the O-line coach's fault b/c he was here JaMario's freshman year and we know how that went. He didnt suddenly forget what he was doing. Also I dont believe it is a case where defenses know how to defend us now b/c why would that change anything when you zone block most of the time anyways. I think it is probably more of the case where we are just out-athleted and if that is the case something needs to change in a hurry, or it will be a bad 4 or 5 years for the program.

[the green rokemi]

Is that what the zone blocking scheme is trying to counter?...is it philosophically easier to run this scheme with the caliber players that we recruit? 

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These are good questions...does anyone actually inderstand the zone blocking scheme enough to explain it beyond they read the defense and adjust,and why we would run it as opposed to...?

[Cr1028]

I dont want to say it is the O-line coach's fault b/c he was here JaMario's freshman year and we know how that went.  He didnt suddenly forget what he was doing. 

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I think his success was holdover from the previous coach who also paved the way for Cobbs' rushing title.

[LongJim]

These are good questions...does anyone actually inderstand the zone blocking scheme enough to explain it beyond they read the defense and adjust,and why we would run it as opposed to...?

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FOOTBALL 101: Zone Blocking

by Bob Davie

Article w/Diagrams

Zone blocking in the running game is when two or three offensive linemen work in tandem as opposed to each offensive lineman having a specific, predetermined man to block. Zone blocking involves the center, guard, tackle and tight end working in combination to block an area with an emphasis on double-teaming the defensive linemen who are aligned on the line of scrimmage.

The concept is for two adjacent linemen to come off in unison and attack a defensive line to the play side or to the side the ball carrier is going. The advantage, as opposed to man blocking, is that you create a double-team with two players blocking one defensive lineman. This allows the offensive linemen to be aggressive because he knows he has help if his defensive lineman was to pinch inside. It also provides movement at the point of attack, which can open creases for the running back.

Zone blocking initially starts out as a double team at the point of attack on the down defensive linemen, but the beauty of it is that one of the offensive linemen will leave to attack the linebacker while one stays to take over the defensive lineman. The key is for the two offensive linemen working in unison to double-team the defensive lineman to decide who and when one of them will leave to block the linebacker.

It appears that they have doubled the defensive end and defensive tackle and allowed the linebackers to go free, but both offensive linemen on the double team have all four of their eyes on the linebacker while the double team is taking place. One of the linemen will come off the double and block the linebacker.

There are several keys to this technique:

1. The linemen stay hip to hip.

2. The linemen keep their shoulders square.

3. Most importantly, all four of their eyes are on the linebacker.

4. Knowing when and who takes over the defensive lineman and who leaves to block the linebacker.

In the next diagrams, we show the technique of going from the double team to taking over the linebacker. If the end pinches inside, the guard will take over and the tackle will leave for the linebacker.

If the end stays outside, the tackle will take over and the guard will leave for the linebacker.

Difference between man blocking and zone blocking

Zone blocking first started to take place back when teams ran an old slant and angle defense. They would line head-up on an offensive lineman then slant the defense one way or another. It is easy to show this problem in man blocking and the best way to illustrate it is to show the defensive end pinching inside. If you are in man blocking and the tackle is assigned to the defensive end, he not only misses the defensive end pinching, but the DE knocks off the guard and keeps him from going to the linebacker.

There are different kinds of zone plays and you will often here the term the outside zone. In the figure below, we show the landmark of the back in the outside zone. It is obvious that at the angle the back takes the ball there is very little opportunity for the back to cut back behind the center. This affects all of the linemen's techniques because it is predetermined where the ball is going.

The inside zone is another term you hear. On the inside zone, the back's angle is more to the inside leg of the offensive tackle. Because the back is headed in a more straight-ahead angle, there is now the ability for the back to cut back behind the center. It is important that the back gets into the heels of the offensive linemen before he makes the cut. The offensive line can't allow penetration.

[Cr1028]

Just playing the "what if" game here but what if we could swap RF for perhaps a Tommie Frazier? Same style QB but Frazier was at a much higher level. I think he'd be at least as good in the playcalling dept. plus he has the "name" that could help in recruiting. He's the head coach of a no name school in Nebraska. What are your thoughts?

PS. I know he was at Baylor. I was at Casey Stadium when they beat us in '99.

[the green rokemi]

pretty interesting Long Jim, thanks for finding that!

[TIgreen01]

FOOTBALL 101:  Zone Blocking

by Bob Davie

Article w/Diagrams

Zone blocking in the running game is when two or three offensive linemen work in tandem as opposed to each offensive lineman having a specific, predetermined man to block. Zone blocking involves the center, guard, tackle and tight end working in combination to block an area with an emphasis on double-teaming the defensive linemen who are aligned on the line of scrimmage.

The concept is for two adjacent linemen to come off in unison and attack a defensive line to the play side or to the side the ball carrier is going. The advantage, as opposed to man blocking, is that you create a double-team with two players blocking one defensive lineman. This allows the offensive linemen to be aggressive because he knows he has help if his defensive lineman was to pinch inside. It also provides movement at the point of attack, which can open creases for the running back.

Zone blocking initially starts out as a double team at the point of attack on the down defensive linemen, but the beauty of it is that one of the offensive linemen will leave to attack the linebacker while one stays to take over the defensive lineman. The key is for the two offensive linemen working in unison to double-team the defensive lineman to decide who and when one of them will leave to block the linebacker.

It appears that they have doubled the defensive end and defensive tackle and allowed the linebackers to go free, but both offensive linemen on the double team have all four of their eyes on the linebacker while the double team is taking place. One of the linemen will come off the double and block the linebacker.

There are several keys to this technique:

1. The linemen stay hip to hip.

2. The linemen keep their shoulders square.

3. Most importantly, all four of their eyes are on the linebacker.

4. Knowing when and who takes over the defensive lineman and who leaves to block the linebacker.

In the next diagrams, we show the technique of going from the double team to taking over the linebacker. If the end pinches inside, the guard will take over and the tackle will leave for the linebacker.

If the end stays outside, the tackle will take over and the guard will leave for the linebacker.

Difference between man blocking and zone blocking

Zone blocking first started to take place back when teams ran an old slant and angle defense. They would line head-up on an offensive lineman then slant the defense one way or another. It is easy to show this problem in man blocking and the best way to illustrate it is to show the defensive end pinching inside. If you are in man blocking and the tackle is assigned to the defensive end, he not only misses the defensive end pinching, but the DE knocks off the guard and keeps him from going to the linebacker.

There are different kinds of zone plays and you will often here the term the outside zone. In the figure below, we show the landmark of the back in the outside zone. It is obvious that at the angle the back takes the ball there is very little opportunity for the back to cut back behind the center. This affects all of the linemen's techniques because it is predetermined where the ball is going.

The inside zone is another term you hear. On the inside zone, the back's angle is more to the inside leg of the offensive tackle. Because the back is headed in a more straight-ahead angle, there is now the ability for the back to cut back behind the center. It is important that the back gets into the heels of the offensive linemen before he makes the cut. The offensive line can't allow penetration.

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Awesome! Now....for someone to give us some analysis on which points we're failing on and why? Any takers?

[LongJim]

Football 101: Pass Blocking--Zone or Man

by Bob Davie

Original Article w/Diagrams Here

Zone-locking or man-locking principles may also be applied to pass blocking. Offensive linemen, when facing twisting defensive linemen, can also either lock on man-to-man or pass it off in a zone concept. When passing it off, or zone blocking, the key is to stop the penetration of the defensive end. In the figure below, the offensive tackle must stop the penetrating defensive end before passing him off to the guard. The offensive tackle then takes the defensive tackle looping around.

Conclusion

Zone blocking was created to handle moving defensive linemen. It is a simple concept, but it takes a lot of practice because it involves offensive linemen working in unison and decisions have to be made while the play is taking place. In zone blocking, you don't have a lot of different assignments, but you have a lot of techniques. It takes many repetitions to get the feel of working together as a unit. The diversity of zone blocking comes by the back running different angles and by the offense using different formations to confuse the defense.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

This is my thought too.  I just don't believe that a young guy like RF would have such a bland, conservative offense.

Regardless of who is making the play calls, how many times can you run that same wide receiver screen.

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---That wide receiver screen was awful.... I can't remember it ever working and even they even tried again after Quinn was half-killed on one attempt. It displayed a total lack of imagination and non-thinking.

[the green rokemi]

I wonder if the zone blocking is ineffective if you have 8 in the box? How can you double any of the D-line if the linebackers are stacked against the line?

[UNTBill]

---That wide receiver screen was awful.... I can't remember it ever working and  even they even tried again after Quinn was half-killed on one attempt.  It displayed a total lack of imagination and non-thinking.

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Yes, that play won't work when all the Sunbelt defenses have seen that same play for years. It is one of the 5 plays that we run on a consistant basis. Now, if we had 6 plays we would be an offensive powerhouse