Questions for older Alums

[Talon90]

I have been following the team since the late 80's and have studied UNT football history but after perusing the link below, a few questions for the older alums:

Why did Bob Tyler and Loyd Russell coach for only one year and Jerry Moore for only 2 years?

Anyone know anything about JW Pender (1st UNT coach)?

Why doesn't Odus Mitchell (21 years .586 Win Pct) and Jack Sisco (13 years .653 Win Pct.) get more publicity?

Does anyone know why Miss. State had to forfeit against us in 1976?

UNT Football Year by Year

UNT Coaches Records

Is there any book on UNT complete football history?

Thanks for any answers you can provide!

[Cr1028]

It seems like we were quite the team in 1988, beating Tech and getting screwed out of a win by Texas. Anyone around for this season?

Oh yea, something else I was wondering, was Stone Cold any good when he played for us?

[FirefightnRick]

It seems like we were quite the team in 1988, beating Tech and getting screwed out of a win by Texas. Anyone around for this season?

Oh yea, something else I was wondering, was Stone Cold any good when he played for us?

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.........and we wiped the floor up with Rice for the final game of that '88 season. I was there, in Lubbock, in Austin and in Houston but I didn't get to make the Marshall game in Huntington WVa for the 1st round of the playoffs. One of the greatest teams we ever had. Everywhere we went we met people who were fans of some team or another from the SWC that would ask "Why doesn't NT join the Southwest Conference?". My reply.........."It's a long story".

Steve Austin recovered the final fumble that sealed the win over TCU in '86 in Fort Worth. He wasn't nearly as big as he was during his wrestling years of course. Always around the ball though.

The mid 70's and late 80's teams are the reason why most alumni who followed the Mean Green during those periods have such a hard time swallowing mediocrity on the football field. Back then there were no reasons for not competing. Hell, we didn't even know we had lousy facilities until Simon started to complain about it and then you know who started advertising it to the rest of the world every chance he got. This is a tough time on all of us, but like the song say's, "Shoulder to Shoulder", we will get through this.

Rick

[NDT]

Jerry Moore was taken off our hands when he was offered the Texas Tech head coaching job. He did not last long at Tech.

[Cr1028]

.........and we wiped the floor up with Rice for the final game of that '88 season.  I was there, in Lubbock, in Austin and in Houston but I didn't get to make the Marshall game in Huntington WVa for the 1st round of the playoffs.  One of the greatest teams we ever had. Everywhere we went we met people who were fans of some team or another from the SWC that would ask "Why doesn't NT join the Southwest Conference?".  My reply.........."It's a long story".

Steve Austin recovered the final fumble that sealed the win over TCU in '86 in Fort Worth.  He wasn't nearly as big as he was during his wrestling years of course.  Always around the ball though. 

The mid 70's and late 80's teams are the reason why most alumni who followed the Mean Green during those periods have such a hard time swallowing mediocrity on the football field.  Back then there were no reasons for not competing.  Hell, we didn't even know we had lousy facilities until Simon started to complain about it and then you know who started advertising it to the rest of the world every chance he got.  This is a tough time on all of us, but like the song say's, "Shoulder to Shoulder", we will get through this.

Rick

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Rick you're my hero. You know everything and you are at everything. A real fan that a team can be proud of.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

I have been following the team since the late 80's and have studied UNT football history but after perusing the link below, a few questions for the older alums:

Why did Bob Tyler and Loyd Russell coach for only one year and Jerry Moore for only 2 years?

Anyone know anything about JW Pender (1st UNT coach)?

Why doesn't Odus Mitchell (21 years .586 Win Pct)  and Jack Sisco (13 years .653 Win Pct.) get more publicity? 

Does anyone know why Miss. State had to forfeit against us in 1976?

UNT Football Year by Year

UNT Coaches Records

Is there any book on UNT complete football history?

Thanks for any answers you can provide!

←

Bob Tyler had been the coach at Mississippi State the year prior to coming to North Texas. When serious NCAA violations were proven at Miss St, it resulted in sanctions and the loss of scholarships. There were some questions about what Coach Tyler might be doing here to improve the program and he was dismissed. Rumor was that it stopped a possible NCAA investigation of us.

Loyd Russell coached only one year because we, like a number of lesser colleges, discontinued football during World War II. All that were fit enough to play football were in a military service. When we resumed football in 1946, we hired Odus Mitchell.

J.W. (Dad) Pender was one of the finest men that I've ever met. He was revered here as much as a college president. He had been a terrific athlete at Baylor, was a Denton resident, and answered the call to become the first NT coach.

Odus Mitchell and Jack Sisco both got a lot of publicity in their time. Sisco coached in an era when we were considered 'small' college. Our best players were not consider All-Americans but Little All-Americans, the equivalent of Division II today. Odus Mitchell began under the same circumstances but in his eighth year (1953) we were elevated to 'major' college (the equivalent of Division 1A today) and stayed at the highest level until 1982. Both were excellent coaches but we don't seem to publicize memories prior to Hayden Fry because there are so few of us left.

Mississippi State forfeited to us in 1976 (and I thought one other time) for using ineligible players.

I don't know that anyone has written a book about the old days of North Texas but it would be an interesting read because there has been many colorful times.

I appreciate your asking, Talon 90. Had this been asked five years ago, I probably would have enjoyed researching our football history and writing a book of memories. There is still one person living, Walt Parker, who witnessed much of this first hand. Walt played under Jack Sisco and also knew Dad Pender and others who were responsible for the infancy of North Texas football. I wish someone would interview him and get it on tape before that information is forever lost.

[FirefightnRick]

I wish someone would interview him and get it on tape before that information is forever lost.

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E,

If your thinking about it or know someone who is I'll provide the digital video camera if need be. Just need an ahead of time and date. This is something that should have been done years ago.

The week the F5 was due we bought a nice camera. To break it in I went over to my 88 year old(at the time) grandfathers' house with a pile of tapes and a tripod and told him to just start talking. He had a memory like a steel trap, could remember names and addresses and incidents from childhood on and I got it all on video. I'm so glad I did. We lost him this past June at the age of 94.

The things the "Greatest Generation" has seen during their lives is just unreal. I promised my grandfather that as long as I had a breath in me I would remain vigilant in passing on his memory to those who follow. And that's what I'm gonna do.

Rick

[gksmith]

I don't recall the name of the book but there is a "History of North Texas" published within the last few years. My dad has a copy.

It is more of a history of the college in general and not just athletics.

Edited October 7, 2006 by gksmith

[Cr1028]

Bob Tyler had been the coach at Mississippi State the year prior to coming to North Texas.  When serious NCAA violations were proven at Miss St, it resulted in sanctions and the loss of scholarships.  There were some questions about what Coach Tyler might be doing here to improve the program and he was dismissed.  Rumor was that it stopped a possible NCAA investigation of us.

Loyd Russell coached only one year because we, like a number of lesser colleges, discontinued football during World War II.  All that were fit enough to play football were in a military service.  When we resumed football in 1946, we hired Odus Mitchell.

J.W. (Dad) Pender was one of the finest men that I've ever met.  He was revered here as much as a college president.  He had been a terrific athlete at Baylor, was a Denton resident, and answered the call to become the first NT coach.

Odus Mitchell and Jack Sisco both got a lot of publicity in their time.  Sisco coached in an era when we were considered 'small' college.  Our best players were not consider All-Americans but Little All-Americans, the equivalent of Division II today.  Odus Mitchell began under the same circumstances but in his eighth year (1953) we were elevated to 'major' college (the equivalent of Division 1A today) and stayed at the highest level until 1982.  Both were excellent coaches but we don't seem to publicize memories prior to Hayden Fry because there are so few of us left.

Mississippi State forfeited to us in 1976 (and I thought one other time) for using ineligible players. 

I don't know that anyone has written a book about the old days of North Texas but it would be an interesting read because there has been many colorful times.

I appreciate your asking, Talon 90.  Had this been asked five years ago, I probably would have enjoyed researching our football history and writing a book of memories.  There is still one person living, Walt Parker, who witnessed much of this first hand.  Walt played under Jack Sisco and also knew Dad Pender and others who were responsible for the infancy of North Texas football.  I wish someone would interview him and get it on tape before that information is forever lost.

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Wow, you guys impress the heck out of me with your knowledge and how long you've followed the team. I'm honored to read about it.

[SilverEagle]

Bob Tyler had been the coach at Mississippi State the year prior to coming to North Texas.  When serious NCAA violations were proven at Miss St, it resulted in sanctions and the loss of scholarships.  There were some questions about what Coach Tyler might be doing here to improve the program and he was dismissed.  Rumor was that it stopped a possible NCAA investigation of us.

Loyd Russell coached only one year because we, like a number of lesser colleges, discontinued football during World War II.  All that were fit enough to play football were in a military service.  When we resumed football in 1946, we hired Odus Mitchell.

J.W. (Dad) Pender was one of the finest men that I've ever met.  He was revered here as much as a college president.  He had been a terrific athlete at Baylor, was a Denton resident, and answered the call to become the first NT coach.

Odus Mitchell and Jack Sisco both got a lot of publicity in their time.  Sisco coached in an era when we were considered 'small' college.  Our best players were not consider All-Americans but Little All-Americans, the equivalent of Division II today.  Odus Mitchell began under the same circumstances but in his eighth year (1953) we were elevated to 'major' college (the equivalent of Division 1A today) and stayed at the highest level until 1982.  Both were excellent coaches but we don't seem to publicize memories prior to Hayden Fry because there are so few of us left.

Mississippi State forfeited to us in 1976 (and I thought one other time) for using ineligible players. 

I don't know that anyone has written a book about the old days of North Texas but it would be an interesting read because there has been many colorful times.

I appreciate your asking, Talon 90.  Had this been asked five years ago, I probably would have enjoyed researching our football history and writing a book of memories.  There is still one person living, Walt Parker, who witnessed much of this first hand.  Walt played under Jack Sisco and also knew Dad Pender and others who were responsible for the infancy of North Texas football.  I wish someone would interview him and get it on tape before that information is forever lost.

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When I first started going to North Texas, one of my mothers old friends was over visiting at my mothers house. When I mentioned that I was going to North Texas she said that she had graduated in the early or mid 20's from North Texas. She told me that while she was a student there, she was involved in what was then a big scandal/mystery of the time.

She said that as a prank, some young men at school that she knew stole Hardin Simmons' school flag (according to her a big rival of ours back then) prior to our game with them. They brought it to her to hide, which she reluctantly agreed to do.

She said that Dr. Bruce was furious about the prank, and called an all school assembly. She said that he got up in front of the assembled students and, like some fire and brimstone Baptist minister, preached a very fiery sermon about the reprehensible behavior of stealing another schools property. She said that she was just sure that Dr. Bruce knew it was her, and that he was directing the sermon at her. She said that she had the young men involved take the flag back, and no one ever knew (other than the culprits who stole it) that she had been involved in this huge scandal.

Pretty tame stuff by our standards, but a big deal back then.

[SilverEagle]

I don'trecall the name of the book but there is a "History of North Texas" published within the last few years. My dad has a copy.

It is more of a history of the college in general and not just athletics.

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You must be talking about "The Story of North Texas", by Dr. James Rogers. It was originally published in 1965 on NT's 75th anniversary, and was updated in 1990 as part of our centenial celebration. I have a copy of the original version.

[ParksAndRecRick]

FFR mentioned the playoff game in Hunington, West Virgina against Marshall. We drove to the game. The worst fans that I ever experienced! They stopped our team bus and fans got on each side of the bus and began pushing it back and forth. The driver finally gave up and stopped and the players had to walk the rest of the way to the locker room.

My and a friend drove straight through from Denton to the game. When we got at the hotel we must have looked like crap. We ran into Corky Nelson and he said, "Don't tell me you guys drove here!" We did and drove straight back after the loss.

It was a GRAND team. A dissapointing loss. Just like all those games in Monroe back then....

But, a GRAND expereience non the less.

ParksAndRecRick

[eagle88]

i played on the 88 team acutally played from 84 to 88. we went through some lean years in 84 and 85. the greatest year was the 88 season. after beating tech and texas (which we did). we choked on SFA and Northwestern La and Marshall. i think we still should have won the national championship that year and very well could have. Corky put that team together and he never once settle for anything less than winning. he was hard on us when we lost and hard on us when we won so that we would never get content with where we were.

[Cowtown]

88 was my freshman year.

For as great as 88 was, 89 was really tough.

The K State game was awful. They were the worst team in 1A, and after they beat us the students rushed the field and tore down the goal posts...imagine that, K State tore down the goal posts because they beat 1-AA North Texas. It made for quite a night on Aggie Ville (their Fry St) where chunks of goal post were paraded in and out of bars all night. My how things have changed.

I also remember since there was no real tailgating, we would smuggle 5ths of booze into the game and set up a mini bar in the stands.

The saving grace for me was that the bars shut down at 12:00 back then. It is alot easier to make it to a 9:00 class when you hit the sack at 1 instead of 3.

GMG

[Huff]

When Hayden Fry went to Iowa his offensive line coach, Andy Everest was named as Athletic Director. Andy was a good person but I am not sure what his credentials were for being named Athletic Director. Andy hired Jerry Moore from Nebraska to be the head football coach. Moore's title at Nebraska was Offensive Coordinator but most people believed that their head coach was really in charge of the offense. Under Hayden Fry, North Texas had a finesse type offense that worked pretty well. Hayden recruited players to fit that system. He left town with some good athletes still on campus in Denton. Jerry Moore came from a power I formation attack at Nebraska. They ran the ball down people's throats, ran the option some, and were very successful at doing it. Moore tried to put in the Nebraska power offense with North Texas players who were not recruited to play the power game. The result was that Jerry Moore took the best talent I have ever seen at North Texas and went 11-11 over a two year period. Lots of folks were surprised (and delighted) when he was hired to be the head football coach at Texas Tech.

[UNTLifer]

Huff makes a very accurate assessment of Moore's time in Denton. I'm not real sure what Bob Tyler did while he was here. I had a friend that worked the chain gang during Tyler's only season, and he stated that Tyler rarely communicated with anyone other than to ask what play was being run.

Odus Mitchell was a family friend of ours, and I'm surprised more people don't mention him in the same breath as Fry. Coach Mitchell was successful and was the coach that really broke the color barrier for large universities. Jerry Levias gets credit for breaking the color barrier with SMUt in the mid 60's, but Coach Mitchell was recruiting these players, Abner Haynes for instance, in the late 50's.

[MeanGreen61]

Huff makes a very accurate assessment of Moore's time in Denton.  I'm not real sure what Bob Tyler did while he was here.  I had a friend that worked the chain gang during Tyler's only season, and he stated that Tyler rarely communicated with anyone other than to ask what play was being run.

Odus Mitchell was a family friend of ours, and I'm surprised more people don't mention him in the same breath as Fry.  Coach Mitchell was successful and was the coach that really broke the color barrier for large universities.  Jerry Levias gets credit for breaking the color barrier with SMUt in the mid 60's, but Coach Mitchell was recruiting these players, Abner Haynes for instance, in the late 50's.

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Lil" Abner's first year was 1956

[VideoEagle]

Bob Tyler had been the coach at Mississippi State the year prior to coming to North Texas.  When serious NCAA violations were proven at Miss St, it resulted in sanctions and the loss of scholarships.  There were some questions about what Coach Tyler might be doing here to improve the program and he was dismissed.  Rumor was that it stopped a possible NCAA investigation of us.

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Tyler was some how involved with “extra benefits for players.” The part that came our officially was just letting them make long distance calls free from the athletic office. For those too young, long distance calls actually cost a significant amount of money in the old days! There were a lot of rumors of more benefits than just phone calls, but the phone calls were documented in the newspapers.

I might be remembering this wrong, but I think Bob Tyler had actually been out of football for a year before we hired him. There were a lot of folks I knew who thought NT had made a terrible hire. The idea was to re-do the hayden Fry hire by getting the successful “name” coach from a bigger school who wanted to prove he could still coach.

I always think of our Bob Tyler experience when someone mentions hiring a “Mike Price” type coach.

[UNTLifer]

Lil" Abner's first year was 1956

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I wasn't sure, that's why I noted the late 50's. I guess 56 would qualify as mid 50's, but it was past the midway point. Thanks for the clarification as this was a few years prior to my arrival on Earth.

[FirefightnRick]

88 was my freshman year.

For as great as 88 was, 89 was really tough.

The K State game was awful. They were the worst team in 1A, and after they beat us the students rushed the field and tore down the goal posts...imagine that, K State tore down the goal posts because they beat 1-AA North Texas. It made for quite a night on Aggie Ville (their Fry St) where chunks of goal post were paraded in and out of bars all night. My how things have changed.

I also remember since there was no real tailgating, we would smuggle 5ths of booze into the game and set up a mini bar in the stands.

The saving grace for me was that the bars shut down at 12:00 back then. It is alot easier to make it to a 9:00 class when you hit the sack at 1 instead of 3.

GMG

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One of the longest drives back home I've ever experienced!

Rick

[raygogreen]

Odus Mitchell was a family friend of ours, and I'm surprised more people don't mention him in the same breath as Fry. Coach Mitchell was successful and was the coach that really broke the color barrier for large universities. Jerry Levias gets credit for breaking the color barrier with SMUt in the mid 60's, but Coach Mitchell was recruiting these players, Abner Haynes for instance, in the late 50's.

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[Huff]

Video Eagle is correct when he remembers that Bob Tyler had been out of coaching for a year when he was hired at NT. Instead of coming to us from Mississippi State he actually came to us from Unemployed. He had been the coach at Mississippi State when we played them during a couple of the Fry years but had been dismissed there by the time NT hired him.

He was athletic director as well as head football coach. I saw him go to more than one football practice in a dress shirt and tie after having been in the athletic director's office all day. That one year was a mess. There are stories about his hiring that sound hard to believe but supposedly come from reliable sources. One story had Tyler and the NT President (Vandeveer ??) meeting in a restaurant and writing out the basic facts of his employment contract on a paper napkin. As I said, that sounds hard to believe but supposedly happened.

Following Tyler's one year at North Texas the decision was made to reduce the athletic budget and go to 1-AA. Fred McCain was made athletic director. The slide that took years to overcome (if we have overcome it yet) was underway.

Only at North Texas ...........

[PlummMeanGreen]

[Huff,Oct 6 2006, 12:28 PM]When Hayden Fry went to Iowa his offensive line coach, Andy Everest was named as Athletic Director.  Andy was a good person but I am not sure what his credentials were for being named Athletic Director.       Andy hired Jerry Moore from Nebraska to be the head football coach.  Moore's title at Nebraska was Offensive Coordinator but most people believed that their head coach was really in charge of the offense.  Under Hayden Fry, North Texas had a finesse type offense that worked pretty well. Hayden recruited players to fit that system.  He left town with some good athletes still on campus in Denton.   Jerry Moore came from a power I formation attack at Nebraska.  They ran the ball down people's throats, ran the option some, and were very successful at doing it.   Moore tried to put in the Nebraska power offense with North Texas players who were not recruited to play the power game.  The result was that Jerry Moore took the best talent I have ever seen at North Texas and went 11-11 over a two year period.  Lots of folks were surprised (and delighted) when he was hired to be the head football coach at Texas Tech.

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Edited October 7, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[NorthTexasFan]

Huff hit the Moore era smack dab on the head...

Actually, the Jerry Moore situation at UNT was the 2'nd strangest coaching job we had in Denton IMHO.  I won't go into what I think the strangest scenerio  is.

Absolutely, Huff, it was the best collection of talent I ever saw at NORTH TEXAS.  Of course, as you know, I wasn't around the Mean Joe Greene group, either.

As many of us presently sit and watch the MTSU/Louisville football on a nationally televised ESPN telecast, I'm sure NT Exes from past and present eras have many emotions a-goin' on.   

The first one that comes to my mind is: "what if" UNT had had a normal progression of athletic growth (along with our boom growth) of our Mean Green football program with our other ex Missouri Valley Conference mates such as Louisville and U of Memphis and then the second thought is:  Why is MTSU with a 5 game losing streak to UNT, no trip to any bowl game ever suddenly in a nationally televised game with a Big East school and our alma mater is clearly in a southbound direction and sucking' major wind as far as having a competitive college football program much higher than those now in the Bottom 10. 

Really now, just who made all this national exposure happen for MTSU while we had a hardy handful of posters who basked in the glory of 4 bowl games that has not given us a similar game as tonight's MTSU/Lousville nationally televised game and those trips to the Big Easy that obviously didn't help us keep a recruiting momentum one iota? 

Granted, the bowl games exposure did get us out of the wagon wheel rut that we had been crawling thru what seems forever and I think most would agree it helped us get a new Athletic Center built (which FWIW, iis now considereed a minimal venue expectation for any aspiring NCAA D1-A program); but what a strange scenario that has us where we are now and others now on the other end of the SBC spectrum.

As some of you have said:  Just what is wrong with this picture?

ESPN BROADCASTERS JUST ASKED: "Are schools like Louisville hurting themselves by playing schools like MTSU?"

Well, many of us have to laugh with that one as it hasn't been that long ago since the UL Cardinals had the same role as the MUTS do tonight on national TV.  Wonder if those ESPN broadcaster even thought about that angle before they asked such a silly question? 

Maybe had MTSU been playing Ohio State tonight that question could have been better served?

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Who's winning btw?

[PlummMeanGreen]

Who's winning btw?

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4 minutes left in 3'rd quarter:

U of L 30

MTSU 10

Louisville has superior speed (as would be expected--remember Southern Miss vs UNT in the Big EZ)? MT's receivers cannot get open due to UL's defensive back's superiour speed but.......................MTSU is giving it a good efftort.

Edited October 7, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen