UNT v. Baylor enrollment,

gksmith · August 14, 2006

I was in Waco to attend my niece graduation from Baylor this past Saturday.

While the Ferrell Center looks a lot smaller then the Super Pit at North Texas, I decided to look up figures before I shoot off my mouth.

Enrollment (undergrad): Baylor 11,580 (2004), UNT 32181 (2005) (probably because Baylor is private and UNT is the 5th largest public university in Texas)

Football Seating: Baylor 50,000 (Floyd Casey Stadium), UNT 30,000 (Fouts Field)

Basketball Seating: Baylor 10,284 (Ferrell Center), UNT 10,032 (Super Pit) Again, the building itself looks a lot smaller then the Pit but it holds more fore basketball.

Edited August 15, 2006 by gksmith

KingDL1 · August 14, 2006

Enrollment (undergrad): Baylor 11,580 (2004), UNT 32181 (2005) (probably because Baylor is private and UNT is the 5th largest public university in Texas)
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Who is 4th? I thought last I checked UNT was 4th behind Houston, ATM, and UT.

UNT_playmaker · August 14, 2006

UNT is very close to passing Houston

Mean'n'Green07 · August 14, 2006

If we played tech, texas, oklahoma, etc. every year our home attendance would be way up too. I saw an OU game at baylor a few years ago, I swear I didn't see almost any green or yellow in the entire stadium. Take them out of the big XII they would average about the same as us.

My girlfriend works for the visual art department, and none of them support UNT sports at all. I once tried to tell them what other kind of event networks thousands of students and alumni together and they still didn't get it. Now back to the point I was going too: Generally speaking the liberal art type majors won't support athletics, same with commuters. Baylor certainly doesn't have any commuters and their students/alumni typically tend to be more conservative.

Solution to the problem: Continue building up better programs like the college of engineering/building the new business building, etc. Continue to build more dorms and try to start weeding out commuters. Ex. If someone doesn't plan on moving to denton to attend school, they should be scoring quite a bit higher on test scores for admittance than someone who were to live on campus. I don't know if we can do this or if its legal but I think its a good idea. It just gives us higher test scores or more school spirit, not a dead beat student who's stupid.

SilverEagle · August 14, 2006

If we played tech, texas, oklahoma, etc. every year our home attendance would be way up too. I saw an OU game at baylor a few years ago, I swear I didn't see almost any green or yellow in the entire stadium. Take them out of the big XII they would average about the same as us.
My girlfriend works for the visual art department, and none of them support UNT sports at all. I once tried to tell them what other kind of event networks thousands of students and alumni together and they still didn't get it. Now back to the point I was going too: Generally speaking the liberal art type majors won't support athletics, same with commuters. Baylor certainly doesn't have any commuters and their students/alumni typically tend to be more conservative.
Solution to the problem: Continue building up better programs like the college of engineering/building the new business building, etc. Continue to build more dorms and try to start weeding out commuters. Ex. If someone doesn't plan on moving to denton to attend school, they should be scoring quite a bit higher on test scores for admittance than someone who were to live on campus. I don't know if we can do this or if its legal but I think its a good idea. It just gives us higher test scores or more school spirit, not a dead beat student who's stupid.
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I was both. I couldn't afford to live on campus, so I commuted. I went to every North Texas event that time allowed me to attend (I often worked two part-time jobs). I became much more involved after I graduated and secured a full time job.

Please don't call this a commuter school.....it is not.

Please don't blame the commuters for a lack of attendance. MANY frats don't bother to attend athletic events at North Texas, unless they are required to do so.

This University cannot afford to alienate ANY group of students.

Your post sounds a bit elitist. Isn't that why we hate SMU? ......

KingDL1 · August 14, 2006

I was a commuter and in a Fraternity!

Dang!

But the more students that live up in Denton the better! If I had lived there and did not have to work five days a week at UPS I would have been to more events. I still think the biggest problem is the example most of the Faculty and administration set for their students. This indifference and almost utter disdain for sports I felt my freshman and sophomore years was shocking to me. I came from a very spirited high school. I believe that is what gave some of my drive toward UNT spirit.

SilverEagle · August 14, 2006

I was a commuter and in a Fraternity!
Dang!
But the more students that live up in Denton the better! If I had lived there and did not have to work five days a week at UPS I would have been to more events. I still think the biggest problem is the example most of the Faculty and administration set for their students. This indifference and almost utter disdain for sports I felt my freshman and sophomore years was shocking to me. I came from a very spirited high school. I believe that is what gave some of my drive toward UNT spirit.
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I agree with that. At the time that I attended, most of the faculty was either indifferent or conveying the attitude that sports was a waste of University funds.

I too came from a spirited HS. As a result, it never occured to me to not be a devoted fan of North Texas. In my town, even the outcasts of society came to the game and cheered.

shutter · August 14, 2006

Sorry guys, you cant blame the students if they are not interested. It is kinda like pushing a religion on them, if they dont want it, they dont want it. NT draws a lot of students that are not into sports and or that kind of social scene.

We lack the traditional peer pressure to attend games that many big-time schools have.

So, we have to continue to produce a good product by winning and good game day experince. We provide a good product at the right time and it could gell.

Keep a winning traditon.

IslandEagle · August 14, 2006

If we played tech, texas, oklahoma, etc. every year our home attendance would be way up too. I saw an OU game at baylor a few years ago, I swear I didn't see almost any green or yellow in the entire stadium. Take them out of the big XII they would average about the same as us.
My girlfriend works for the visual art department, and none of them support UNT sports at all. I once tried to tell them what other kind of event networks thousands of students and alumni together and they still didn't get it. Now back to the point I was going too: Generally speaking the liberal art type majors won't support athletics, same with commuters. Baylor certainly doesn't have any commuters and their students/alumni typically tend to be more conservative.
Solution to the problem: Continue building up better programs like the college of engineering/building the new business building, etc. Continue to build more dorms and try to start weeding out commuters. Ex. If someone doesn't plan on moving to denton to attend school, they should be scoring quite a bit higher on test scores for admittance than someone who were to live on campus. I don't know if we can do this or if its legal but I think its a good idea. It just gives us higher test scores or more school spirit, not a dead beat student who's stupid.
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Take Baylor out of the Big 12 and they wouldn't come close to averaging what we do in football. They'd be more like Sam Houston. I've seen home games in Waco where there weren't 10,000 BU fans in attendence and if it weren't for the visitors, they'd have trouble averaging 15k a year.

KingDL1 · August 14, 2006

Take Baylor out of the Big 12 and they wouldn't come close to averaging what we do in football. They'd be more like Sam Houston. I've seen home games in Waco where there weren't 10,000 BU fans in attendence and if it weren't for the visitors, they'd have trouble averaging 15k a year.
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But how many students does Baylor have? And how big is Waco?

We have something like three times the enrollment with all of DFW to pull from. If they get 10,000 we should get 30,000 easy.

meangreendork · August 14, 2006

My girlfriend works for the visual art department, and none of them support UNT sports at all. I once tried to tell them what other kind of event networks thousands of students and alumni together and they still didn't get it. Now back to the point I was going too: Generally speaking the liberal art type majors won't support athletics, same with commuters. Baylor certainly doesn't have any commuters and their students/alumni typically tend to be more conservative.
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Walking close to a dangerous line in politics, aren't we?

See, within the SOVA there are students who aren't part of the stereotypical lib/arts population. I'm from that department and I'll say that about 30% of that number would be into the athletics program if they saw something worth supporting. Even in our better seasons, getting thrashed by OOC opponents doesn't look good to the mainstream/bandwagon fan regardless of how well we do in the SBC.

In the eyes of most people, the SunBelt doesn't matter right now. Period.

The real solution: Win the OOC games and capitalize on any good media exposure. That'll get more bandwagon fans that over time, will become hardcore fans. You might even get us liberal arts kids out there to watch the other team get smashed.

Edited August 14, 2006 by meangreendork

BaylorGuy314 · August 14, 2006

Take Baylor out of the Big 12 and they wouldn't come close to averaging what we do in football. They'd be more like Sam Houston. I've seen home games in Waco where there weren't 10,000 BU fans in attendence and if it weren't for the visitors, they'd have trouble averaging 15k a year.
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This is a very, very silly statement.

Look at the attendance of the following non-conference home games. Also consider the fact that we haven't had a winning season in 10 years. If we draw this well against these opponents, with no winning season in 10 years, then that's not too shabby IMO.

2005 (Baylor finished 5-6)

Samford - 36,575

2004 (Baylor finished 3-8)

Texas State - 28,533

North Texas - 33,619

2003 (Baylor finished 3-9)

UAB - 28,732

SMU - 30,256

Sam Houston - 27,842

2002 (Baylor finished 3-9)

Samford - 28,375

Tulsa- 30,337

2001 (Baylor finished 3-8)

Arkansas State - 28,953

New Mexico - 38,396

The argument that we wouldn't draw well in a smaller conference just doesn't hold water, IMO.

The absolute worst attendance we've had since 2001 was 23,000 against Missouri in 2004. The game had a 9:00pm start so it could be on FSN. What we got was a huge downpour. It had rained all day and throughout the game as well. I'm surprised attendance was that high, considering the horrible weather, very late start time, and the fact that the game was on TV.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not proud of the attendance numbers above. But considering that we haven't been to a bowl in almost 12 years and haven't had a winning season in 10, keeping those numbers that high says that we do have a devout core of followers.

Knowing that UTEP averaged only 20,000 two years ago and now sells out in El Paso tells me that Baylor could do the same if we can mimick that success.

Edited August 14, 2006 by BaylorGuy314

Mean'n'Green07 · August 14, 2006

I was both. I couldn't afford to live on campus, so I commuted. I went to every North Texas event that time allowed me to attend (I often worked two part-time jobs). I became much more involved after I graduated and secured a full time job.
Please don't call this a commuter school.....it is not.
Please don't blame the commuters for a lack of attendance. MANY frats don't bother to attend athletic events at North Texas, unless they are required to do so.
This University cannot afford to alienate ANY group of students.
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OK let me clear a few things up. I'm not calling us a commuter school by any means. We have the largest on campus population out of any school in this area. WE DO however have a large portion of commuter students. The NT daily reported that over 15,000 students don't live in Denton. The school has over 32,000 but I'm also assuming that large portion of this 15,000 commuters are graduate students.

As a generality commuters come to get a degree and move on with their lives. Look at UTA. There's a big reason why I didn't want to go there, and thats because there isn't near as much campus life as UNT. There's nothing wrong with it but the average age for undergrads was 27 a few years back at UTA. When I was 18 that didn't sound very appealing to me. And once again, if you're driving from Dallas everyday working your way through school, UNT athletics and other extra events usually aren't going to be much of an option for you.

When I lived on campus I worked at the eagle fund raiser, where I'd call alumni and ask them for donations. You are encouraged to talk to them and see their interests and talk about their time at UNT. 95% of the time the ones who said 'I hate that school ever don't call me again!' were commuters. That wasn't always the case, but back to my point I still think we need to cut down on commuters and continue to build up our on campus population.

megagreen · August 14, 2006

Just to make you feel better, the UNT department of housing is running out of beds every fall and is building more dorms. Next time you are on campus, go look at the back parking lot of Clark Hall at Ave D. and Eagle. Ta da! That's a new dorm.... and there are more in the works.

GMG!

IslandEagle · August 14, 2006

This is a very, very silly statement.
Look at the attendance of the following non-conference home games. Also consider the fact that we haven't had a winning season in 10 years. If we draw this well against these opponents, with no winning season in 10 years, then that's not too shabby IMO.
2005 (Baylor finished 5-6)
Samford - 36,575

2004 (Baylor finished 3-8)
Texas State - 28,533
North Texas - 33,619
2003 (Baylor finished 3-9)
UAB - 28,732
SMU - 30,256
Sam Houston - 27,842
2002 (Baylor finished 3-9)
Samford - 28,375
Tulsa- 30,337
2001 (Baylor finished 3-8)
Arkansas State - 28,953
New Mexico - 38,396
The argument that we wouldn't draw well in a smaller conference just doesn't hold water, IMO.
The absolute worst attendance we've had since 2001 was 23,000 against Missouri in 2004. The game had a 9:00pm start so it could be on FSN. What we got was a huge downpour. It had rained all day and throughout the game as well. I'm surprised attendance was that high, considering the horrible weather, very late start time, and the fact that the game was on TV.
Don't get me wrong- I'm not proud of the attendance numbers above. But considering that we haven't been to a bowl in almost 12 years and haven't had a winning season in 10, keeping those numbers that high says that we do have a devout core of followers.
Knowing that UTEP averaged only 20,000 two years ago and now sells out in El Paso tells me that Baylor could do the same if we can mimick that success.
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I was talking about fans in the stands, not attendence that counts season ticket holders, etc. I have been in Baylor stadium for games other than the North Texas games and there couldn't have been more than 10-15k in the stands. And, almost anytime you see BU on TV, you can see more fans from the visiting team than BU fans.

BaylorGuy314 · August 14, 2006

I was talking about fans in the stands, not attendence that counts season ticket holders, etc.

Total season tickets were only about 5-7k between 2001-2004. Yes, Baylor football had hit an alltime low.

In 05, that jumped up to about 10k.

This year, it's over 15k.

While those season tickets could mess with the numbers a bit, if only half of the season ticket holders showed up, the maximum skew is a couple of thousands during 2001-2004.

I have been in Baylor stadium for games other than the North Texas games and there couldn't have been more than 10-15k in the stands.

What games? You mentioned Oklahoma (maybe 2002) and that was the last game of the year after we had just lost 41-0 to Texas A&M, 34-0 to Colorado, 44-10 to Kansas State, 62-11 to Tech, and 41-0 to Texas IN A ROW. The attendance of that game was 28k and there might have been 10k Oklahoma fans there (they were 8-1 going into that game).

And, almost anytime you see BU on TV, you can see more fans from the visiting team than BU fans.

Unfortunately, this is a big mistake by Baylor imo. The TV cameras face the visitors section of the stadium. The home side (pressbox side) is never shown, and it (for numerous reasons- it's in the shade for most of the games, etc) is always much more full.

If Baylor was smart, they'd build platforms for TV on the visitor side of the stadium facing the home side. The pressbox is huge and looks impressive on TV and again, that side is always much more full.

Edited August 14, 2006 by BaylorGuy314

UNTFan23 · August 14, 2006

If Baylor was smart, they'd build platforms for TV on the visitor side of the stadium facing the home side. The pressbox is huge and looks impressive on TV and again, that side is always much more full.
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If you are filming a night game, then press box side shots will work fine because the stadium lights throw out plenty of light, but press-box shots into the shade don't come out very well, especially if your crowd has a dominating dark color like dark green.

Texas Stranger · August 14, 2006

Who knew Samford traveled so well ?

BaylorGuy314 · August 14, 2006

If you are filming a night game, then press box side shots will work fine because the stadium lights throw out plenty of light, but press-box shots into the shade don't come out very well, especially if your crowd has a dominating dark color like dark green.
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I suppose that's true and I hadn't thought of it before you said that.

It sucks that it happens that way though.

Here's what a camera view looks like from the current setup:

user posted image

And here's what one might look like from the visitor stands:

(I know this is a panoramic, but it was the best I could fine of a gameday)

Maybe this one is better from the visitor stands (bad pic quality, but you get the idea):

user posted image

I hate the fact that when we are on TV, we always get a nice shot of the visitor section. I think it would look much more impressive if they could shoot towards the pressbox, but then again, you'd have to get them awfully high up to do that and that side of the stadium isn't very tall. So, there ya go.

Edited August 14, 2006 by BaylorGuy314

UNTFan23 · August 14, 2006

Some of those shots are from the Nebraska @ Baylor game. Fun game to go to ... if you were a Nebraska fan. I sat right behind the band. Lots of red too. It's surprising how many Nebraska alumni live in Texas.

FirefightnRick · August 14, 2006

Sorry guys, you cant blame the students if they are not interested.
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user posted image

There were quite a bit of interested students on this night.

Rick

gksmith · August 15, 2006

North Texas has changed a lot in the last 25 + years.

I would no longer consider NT a "commuter school." There is a lot of campus life and a lot to hold the student's interest outside of class. Enrollment is probably double since I graduated in '84.

I think it is a matter of continuing to put a winning product on the field/floor, expand the athletic program to include such mainstream sports as Baseball, upgrade some of the facilies. I think all of that is in the works already.

Unfortunately, one change I would make to the Super Pit is change the seats. They are too narrow (and while I am a little over weight, I am not exactly a fat ass either). Unfortunately that may mean reducing the number of seats.

Crown Bear · August 15, 2006

I was at the game FirefightnRick shows the picture of and there was no more than 25,000 in the stands for that game and not nearly that many on the field afterwards. I have attended many UNT games and their fan support is poor at best for the numbers enrolled and alumni. Even during the seasons where they won the Sun Belt the stands were never completely full and the stadium only holds 30,000. I enjoy watching and listening to UNT football but there is no way they should be compared to Baylor or any other Big 12 school as far as fan base. I think some posters should probably check the numbers in attendance when Baylor was playing in the SWC before talking about the number of fans that would attend a home Baylor game if they were not in the Big 12.

NT80 · August 15, 2006

If NT played the home schedule BU had in the SWC and now has in the Big12 we'd have a newer, larger stadium than BU and out-average Baylor in attendance.

Edited August 15, 2006 by NT80

untwillrise · August 15, 2006

Noth Texas has great student support. It is just that the sunbelt doesn't have anybody that will excite the student population. I gaurantee more excitement for Texas State than Arkansa State.