"B" Sample Positve

Coach · August 5, 2006

The Landis "B" sample came back positive as well today, and Landis was fired from his team. The Tour director also said he is no longer considered the champion.

Link

Excuses won't mask the truth

LongJim · August 5, 2006

The Landis "B" sample came back positive as well today, and Landis was fired from his team.
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He needs to take his medicine and STHU.

FirefightnRick · August 6, 2006

Not surprising at all considering he clearly stated that he expected the "B" to come back as the same. . I'm still interested in how an 11:1 ratio dissappears 24 to 48 hours later? There's two sides to this. He's either lying and got caught and needs to come clean about it, or this is more bullshit from the same lab that did it's best to screw Armstrong and Landis is waiting for his day in court? What bothers me is where's the cry of rape from the Landis camp? Personally, if you accused me of being a cheat and/or a liar I'd be screaming my defense from the tallest mountain. I'd be so pissed off I'd be beside myself, especially if it cost me my carreer and job? So where's the cry of defense? Too many things doesn't add up.

It's my hope that this doesn't re open the French attempts at smearing Armstrong. Armstrong doesn't care much for Landis in the first place, thus their confrontational dissagreement that split them up two years ago. He's already getting disrupting questions about him and you can tell he doesn't want to comment about it. As it is, nothing good comes out of this and cycling has already taken a downturn since Armstrong retired. My worse fear is that due to the negative reaction from the Landis mess that it ends up hampering Armstrong's fight against cancer and in fundraising the search for a cure.

Not good at all.

Rick

Coach · August 6, 2006

Apparently, Landis issued a statement on his website claiming his innocence yesterday. Very Bonds-esque.

I think if anything, it makes Armstrong look a lot cleaner. He won it seven years with the same non-stop testing and never had a positive for anything. Landis (and the others DQed before the race) are proof that you will get caught if you cheat.

August 6, 2006

With the way Landis has been making excuses, there is no doubt in my mind that he had taken the synthetic testosterone. Had he truly not known what had caused the result, he wouldn't have been making up wild excuses and would have asked for his samples to be tested at another facility. But even then, when the limit is a 4 to 1 ratio, it is kind of hard to argue with a 11 to 1 ratio. That is not really the subtle kind of sabatoge you would expect.

Also, the excuses that people are making for Landis are getting old. Testosterone helps with stamina and recovery, so yes, there is a reason that he would take it. I've had people tell me when they experimented with steroids that with the first dose they could go work harder for longer than they ever had before, and be ready to work again shortly there after. That is what steroids are about, not building huge muscle. People can use steroids for building muscle, but it's not like you shoot yourself up and you wake up the next morning with giant muscles. It's all about being able to work at a level you couldn't before for longer than could before and then have a short recovery time and be ready to do it again.

UNTLifer · August 7, 2006

With the way Landis has been making excuses, there is no doubt in my mind that he had taken the synthetic testosterone. Had he truly not known what had caused the result, he wouldn't have been making up wild excuses and would have asked for his samples to be tested at another facility. But even then, when the limit is a 4 to 1 ratio, it is kind of hard to argue with a 11 to 1 ratio. That is not really the subtle kind of sabatoge you would expect.
Also, the excuses that people are making for Landis are getting old. Testosterone helps with stamina and recovery, so yes, there is a reason that he would take it. I've had people tell me when they experimented with steroids that with the first dose they could go work harder for longer than they ever had before, and be ready to work again shortly there after. That is what steroids are about, not building huge muscle. People can use steroids for building muscle, but it's not like you shoot yourself up and you wake up the next morning with giant muscles. It's all about being able to work at a level you couldn't before for longer than could before and then have a short recovery time and be ready to do it again.
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Other than having "people tell me when they experimented with steriods...." what are your references or your educational background to support your views?

August 7, 2006

Other than having "people tell me when they experimented with steriods...." what are your references or your educational background to support your views?
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Haha, that's golden. I hope you're prepared to get that question every time you talk about a subject you aren't an expert in. Just a warning.

Obviously, I have no educational background in steroids. I know what people have told me about their use and how they had incredible energy levels that they had never felt before. I also know what I've picked up over time. It is no secret that steroids allows people to work harder for longer and recover more quickly. You don't need an educational background in steroids to know that.

BTW, just went through a list of athletes caught using banned substances and I found a swimmer, speed skater and bob sledder that used steroids, and a tennis, soccer and water polo player were caught using testosterone. Not exactly sports that large muscle mass helps out. Endurance, stamina and quick recovery on the other hand? Just another example of how steroids and testosterone are not just for getting Mark McGuire huge.

Edited August 7, 2006 by e-bone

Coach · August 7, 2006

what are your references or your educational background to support your views?

If this was a prerequisite to posting, gmg.com and just about every board like it would not exist.

UNTLifer · August 7, 2006

Haha, that's golden. I hope you're prepared to get that question every time you talk about a subject you aren't an expert in. Just a warning.
Obviously, I have no educational background in steroids. I know what people have told me about their use and how they had incredible energy levels that they had never felt before. I also know what I've picked up over time. It is no secret that steroids allows people to work harder for longer and recover more quickly. You don't need an educational background in steroids to know that.
BTW, just went through a list of athletes caught using banned substances and I found a swimmer, speed skater and bob sledder that used steroids, and a tennis, soccer and water polo player were caught using testosterone. Not exactly sports that large muscle mass helps out. Endurance, stamina and quick recovery on the other hand? Just another example of how steroids and testosterone are not just for getting Mark McGuire huge.
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Just curious what your background is/was. Wasn't trying to put you on the defensive. If I'm stating facts then I expect to get that, not with opinion.

Monkeypox · August 7, 2006

e-bone is correct.

Steroids will affect you depending on how you use them. They basically shorten your recovery time/downtime from workouts and make it easier to build lean muscle mass. Thus, depending on how you work out, you can use them to bulk up, or to work on you endurance and stamina. It's up to your individual regimen, the same as it would be otherwise. Soccer players train a certain way. It's different from the training football players use. Steroids will simply enhance these workouts, not alter their purpose.

Jose Canseco has written at length about them. Dude was ripped, and has all but admitted that he was lazy. He used them because they allowed him to get the same results working out only a fraction of the time that someone else would. Someone like Bonds, for example, is a workout beast. He would see very good results either way. However, adding steroids to the mix can make him downright inhuman.

I've been taking a prescription drug for several years now that they say stimulates the natural production of HGH, as a side effect. Since taking it, I've gained 20 lbs (I've never been able to gain weight before). The most disturbing thing is that if I increase/change workouts even modestly, I can see a fairly drastic change in my physiology.

gksmith · August 8, 2006

Here are some of the inconsistancies in this case:

Getting extra Testosterone is something that will take a long time to work. The effects are not immediate (like the BONK in stage 16 followed by the superhuman effort in stage 17).

I believe the Yellow Jersey, Stage winner, and even the top finishers in each stage and the top ranked riders overall are tested. Landis was tested before stage 17 with negative results. Now, one day the ration is inflated. That is very inconsistant.

In Landis statements today (8/7), he explained that it is partly the fact that his level of testosterone is not high, but the other part of the ratio is exceptionally low.

Lots of media people are compairing this to Berry Bonds. Unlike Bonds, Landis body "structure," performance, and riding technique have not changed over the years. Like Armstrong, his performance has been consistant. So there is no history of Landis using performance enhancment drugs.

The testing facility violated its own rules by anouncing to the public the results of the tests. What other inconsistancies do they have? I know I have been pee tested for work or pre employment screening. Those are VERY STRICTLY CONTROLLED and I watch the packaging of the test and even initial the tape across the bottle. While it has not come out what the exact procedures are for handling the tests and tamper prevention, I can see this coming out in the case.

FirefightnRick · August 8, 2006

Maybe I' missed it, but what other excuses other than "I'll prove that I have an unnatural level of testosterone" has Landis been saying in his defense?

I think you would have to have come out from under a rock to NOT know that testosterone and other drugs that are used as a performance enhancers helps you recover quicker from workouts and others as well can also build mass, depending on their use and each individual's program. That seems to be the basis for the questions that I and MOST others have with the Landis case. That how can you have it, and have it to a 11 to 1 ratio and 24 hours later not nor did you have it when you were tested the week before after you take the yellow jersey the first time? Remember that Friday's ride he remained in 3rd prior to winning the time trial that saturday, then he won the whole thing on Sunday. So we know he was tested Thursday(the day that the sample in question was given), Friday, Saturday and Sunday. For testosterone to have an affect it must be used over a period of time according to the article I linked earlier. This is not an "EXCUSE", it's a legitimate question. Where did the testosterone come from, and better yet, where did it go?

The testing facility violated its own rules by anouncing to the public the results of the tests. What other inconsistancies do they have?

Apparantly when it comes to the French and cycling they make up their own rules and can change it as they see fit? Who knows, but LNDD is the same questionable facility that leaked to the french newspaper Le Equipe that they had found a 6 year old "B" sample of Armstrongs' in '05 that supposedly had EPO in it. Here's an article from last August about it: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=fea...vacy_and_ethics

Rick

Edited August 8, 2006 by FirefightnRick

August 9, 2006

Landis excuses... Well there has been the cortisone shot excuse, beer and whiskey the night before excuse, his body produced the testosterone naturally excuse and the dehydration excuse. Did I miss any?

Had he come out from the beginning and said he did not know how the tests were positive and had questioned the lab that did the testing and asked for another lab to do the testing, then I might be inclined to believe him. Instead, he and his lawyers started rattling off excuse after excuse, losing more and more credibility all the while.

FirefightnRick · August 9, 2006

I didn't hear any of those until today. Last Thursday I only remember seeing him say he didn't do it and later on he expected the "b" to come back the same as the "a", that he could only think that his body overproduced testosterone and that he would prove his innocence. Here's his first public statement after the story broke on July 27th.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/27/...leRSSTopStories

Now tonight: Did y'all see Landis on Leno tonight? Bill Maher may be the biggest D@#K I've ever seen to show his face on public TV. Maher was the first guest, and stayed on stage when Landis came on second. Leno asked Landis to explain himself and he does. Then in the middle of that conversation out of no where Maher interrupts him and Floyd respectfully stops talking and say's, "I think he (Bill Maher) has a comment?". In which Maher immediately say's "It just seems we are having a giant debate about a sport that no one gives a shit about!". In which Landis nervously laughs off and takes the chance to shoot at Leno about "Be easy on the guy, he has a hard enough time getting guests on". What a pompous, asinine statement for Maher to make. According to the LAF over 55 million people worldwide wear the LiveStrong armbands in support of finding a cure for cancer. Amazing for the fact that all of that support was launched from the back of a bicycle. Props to Landis for being able to take that like he did. If you have a family member that is struggling with cancer, and considering all that Lance Armstrong has done for research, all by using cycling as his stage to raise the millions he has done so far then you understand my rage at that statement. Had I been Landis I probably would have been dragged off in cuffs a minute later?

As for the overall interview I don't see how Landis ever recovers from this. The host of the show, Leno seriously and directly asks Landis two questions in which Leno has the facts completely wrong and Landis has to correct him. They were simple questions that have been written about time and again and Leno throws them at him incorrectly. Landis did give 4 plausible explanations, which I suppose if your licking your chops to see him stripped and banned you could say they are excuses, but they are possible explanations, all of which were also given as explanations the countless times Le Equipe accused Armstrong of doping over the years. Landis did bring up one point that I never have seen discussed and that is "the system" directly has a flaw in it in that it allows a certain point of ratio, that being 4:1, without explanation. How can that be? As you'll recall he tested at 11:1. He made mention that you can test 4:1 and that is ok even though the testing laboratory and system cannot explain the 4:1. Again, how can that be? It was 6:1 a year or two ago but that has now changed to 4:1. I'd like to know what that's based on? He also mentioned, and it's been posted here too that the laboratory broke it's own guidelines when they released the information. He said Armstrong gave him advice that to believe in the system and fight if he's innocent, but that as it stands now he doesn't have much faith in the system. Can't say I blame him.

Finally, Floyd Landis either cannot think quick enough or is not witty enough to answer questions thrown at him on such a huge stage as it is for tv, or he's simply a horrible communicator/interviewee. Is that a word? I say this because I've seen him interviewed a few times now on tv and he is simply a horrible speaker. It doesn't mean he's guilty, but damn, he doesn't seem to be putting up much of a fight and that may just be his personality. It may be that he's shy, or scared of camera's, I don't know but he needs a publicist? to help him defend himself when on live/recorded tv. He looks down and has such a sad look on his face and pauses at the worst time when asked direct questions. He ends up answering them but the pause is horrible. The way the Leno interview went tonight he couldn't have convinced me that it's hot in Texas right now.

Rick

Edited August 9, 2006 by FirefightnRick