floyd doping

EagleD · July 27, 2006

LONDON (AP) -- The Phonak cycling team says it has been notified

of a positive doping test by Tour de France winner Floyd Landis.

greenjoe · July 27, 2006

I understand this is an irregularity or imbalance in his testrone level. I'm hoping that this has to do with something he might have been taking for his bad and soon to be replaced hip.

The French just can't stand the fact that another American won the Tour.

Coach · July 27, 2006

Do you make excuses for Bonds too? Oh wait, it's different...

bigrobdsp · July 27, 2006

if the second test proves to have the same results I hope they strip him of every title he has ever had and ban him from even looking at a bike ever again. I dont think that he should even be able to operate chain drive machinery.

UNT_playmaker · July 27, 2006

i hope they further test him and find out the truth, it is true, strip him of anything he earned.....

Bring back Lance......

CMJ · July 27, 2006

I also hope it was a faulty test, but I have to say it looks like Floyd cheated his way to the podium. Very, very sad. He'll be stripped soon enough if it's true.

H-towngreen · July 27, 2006

Some are saying it may be due the cortizone shots in his hip, and that blood sample b will come up negative.

FirefightnRick · July 27, 2006

Floyd denies cheating.

Landis suspended....

Under World Anti-Doping Agency regulations, a ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone greater than 4:1 is considered a positive result and subject to investigation. The threshold was recently lowered from 6:1. The most likely natural ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in humans is 1:1.
Testosterone is included as an anabolic steroid on WADA's list of banned substances, and its use can be punished by a two-year ban.
Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, said Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine. But if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected, he said.
"So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up."

Personally I'll wait until all the facts are in.

Rick

Edited July 27, 2006 by FirefightnRick

VideoEagle · July 28, 2006

Personally I'll wait until all the facts are in.
Rick
←

Isn't it more fun to pile on before you actually have a clue what you are talking about?

UNTLifer · July 28, 2006

I also just heard on ESPN News that his levels of epitestosterone were abnormally low and his testosterone levels were normal.

Coach, Bonds is a totally different story. Compare apples to apples.

Coach · July 28, 2006

Yes, I know the individual cases of Bonds and Landis have little in common. For instance, Bonds has never tested positive (that we know of), while Landis does have a positive test out there.

He may be innocent, I don't care either way. What I am pointing out is that so many people are scrambling to defend this guy, who has a positive test out there, and Bonds is relegated to ultimate sports villan without a positive test. For instance, I was listening to the Dan Patrick show yesterday during lunch, and they had the ESPN cycling expert on the show. He gave a laundry list of reasons that this test was not a big deal. Some of the reasons were compelling (that every international athlete that has appealed this test has won), and others were laughable (the high testosterone ratio may hav beeen due to the beer he drank the night before). I highly doubt that beer gives someone a testosterone boost great enough to overcome near 9 minutes against the best cyclists in the world the next morning. But it was clear that the ESPN expert was going to go to any length neccessary to defend him. Bonds doesn't even have a positive test like Landis, and nobody would touch him with a ten foot pole (except Derek Jeter, who defended Bonds to the media and fans while he lets A-Rod take the beating silently).

I am not taking up for Bonds, just noticing the 180 degree difference in the way the two are treated, and wondering the reasons behind that. Is it the sanctity of breaking Babe Ruth's record? Is it because Bonds is a jerk that doesn't give interviews to Rick Reilly? Is it because Landis stuck it to the French in their Super Bowl yet again?

I think there is a pretty good chance that in time, Landis will be found innocent, and Bonds will be found guilty, but until then, I am amazed at the difference in the way they are being perceived and discussed by the media and fans.

H-towngreen · July 28, 2006

Why is it that Bonds doesn't have a positive test? Probably because they just started testing a year ago. And the type of testing done in cycling is 5 times more stringent than in MLB. The two testing methods are not even comparable. If MLB switched to cyclings testing we would see a large portion of players failing.

And Landis did not have a Testosterone boost, that was at a normal level. His epitestosterone was lower causing the ratio to be out of whack.

Maybe Landis was using the "cream and the clear" thinking it was Ben-gay for his aching hip. The reason everyone is trying to get Floyd in the clear is becuase he is a likeable guy. A menanite farmer from Penn. who goes on to have one of the best stage rides ever and win the Tour. While BB is a a stuck up prick who acts like we owe him something. Not to mention the fact that his best friend and personal trainer refuses, for a second time, to testify is a grand jury investigation looking into BB. You think maybe he's covering something up? Nah, I doubt it. The list of reasons to dislike BB goes on and on. Much like his coverup

Coach · July 28, 2006

Yes I know it was the epi/testosterone ratio that was over four times the normal ratio. Sorry if I worded that incorrectly. I still doubt beer was the culprit. Does it not concern anyone that this test was from the stage where he made his historic comback?

There is no doubt that cycling has a tougher testing system than the MLB...and for that matter the NBA, NFL, and every other organization you can name. College football might not be able to have a season if they had those same tests as cycling.

I'm not saying Bonds is clean or a good guy, and I'm not saying Landis is evil or doping up, but given the facts we have on both, the treatment is of each interesting.

EagleD · July 28, 2006

Press conference now. I can't hear it b/c I'm at work. Any word on his statement?

EagleD · July 28, 2006

MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Floyd Landis said he has naturally high

testosterone levels, and will undergo tests to prove he is not

guilty of doping at the Tour de France.

"We will explain to the world why this is not a doping case but

a natural occurrence," Landis said Friday in his first public

appearance since a positive doping test cast doubt on one of the

most stirring Tour de France comeback wins in history.

Landis denied that he cheated in a teleconference Thursday, but

said at the time he had no idea what may have caused his positive

test for high testosterone following the Tour's 17th stage, where

he made his heroic comeback charge last week.

On Friday he said that the high testosterone level is the result

of his natural physiology.

"I would like to make absolutely clear that I am not in any

doping process," Landis said. "I ask not to be judged by anyone,

much less sentenced by anyone."

Landis is still awaiting results from a backup sample which, if

negative, will clear him. If ultimately proven guilty, he could be

stripped of the Tour title and fired from the team.

The Switzerland-based Phonak team will ask that the backup

sample be tested in the next few days, manager John Lelangue said

Thursday.

The team suspended Landis after the International Cycling Union

notified it Wednesday that he had an "unusual level of

testosterone/epitestosterone" when his test was taken last

Thursday, the day he staked his comeback in the Alps.

FirefightnRick · July 28, 2006

The difference between bonds and Landis is that there are numerous log books implicating Bonds to illegal drugs and Landis, being tested multiple times has never tested positive. Bonds hasnt' because of the infancy of MLB's testing program. And compared to the WADA tests it's an absolute joke. Armstrong has probably been the most tested athlete in the world and has never tested positive. By the way, the high level of testosterone return IS NOT a POSITIVE test for illegal drugs........yet. As I posted earlier, had he been a "USER" it would have showed up way before the 17th stage.

I'm glad to hear that Landis states he is going to fight this. The truth will come out soon enough.

RIck

Coach · July 28, 2006

There are books about Lance Armstrong as well, and he is a multiple sportsman of the year, national hero, and hosted the ESPYS recently. Give it some time and there will probably be some about Landis too. I don't think Game of Shadows is the reason in the difference in the attitudes towards the situations...

I'm not arguing that Landis is guilty or Bonds is innocent, I am just trying to understand the reasons for the polar opposite treatment by each by sports media and sports fans.

H-towngreen · July 28, 2006

Game of Shadows is only one thing in a long line against Bonds. How about the grand jury investigation, just to name one thing.

EagleD · July 28, 2006

Is anyone going to mention masking agents? Or while we're at it are we going to talk about our own athletes? This is a North Texas athletics site after all. Do we dare talk about the elephant in the room?

Steroid use among pro and amateur athletes is rampant (Depending on the sport. I don't think golfers or NASCAR drivers would benefit much from steroid use. Then again are those really sports?). I'm not condoning doping, I'm just saying the testing is laughable and if you fail a test, then don't be surprised if we raise a doubtful eyebrow.

Ethical question... A number of years ago the US olympic cyling team was busted for doping when in fact there was no doping involved. They trained at a high altitude which made their bodies produce more white blood cells (or something like that). The blood was extracted and during the tournament was i.v.'d back in. (It helped with recovery time or something.) Their body produced it naturally.

Michael Jordan had the flu in the finals of an NBA championship. He took in saline fluids through an i.v. A substance that is produced outside the human body. It clearly enhanced his performance. He then had an extraordinary game and is considered a basketball god in part b/c of that performance.

Who benefited most from a needle in the arm?

Which one had a breach of ethics? The one who injected a substance produced outside of his body which (in part) made him a superstar, or the team who injected a substance back into their bodies unadulterated?

GO MEAN GREEN

Coach · July 28, 2006

I thought the grand jury dismissed with no action taken?

Again, I'm not accusing Landis of being a user or Bonds of being clean, but there are clearly deeper reasons than these for the opposite manner in which the two get treated by fans and media considering the circumstances.

It's a glaring double standard, that nobody is even attempting to hide, and I think it has to do with money, prominence, appearance, and what the media tells us.

Money - There is a growing animosity towards highly paid professional athletes by fans (except golfers, who get a pass on this...the two highest paid athletes in America are golfers, but A-Rod is the face of the issue). Bonds makes a bunch of money, while Landis is not even in the same ballpark.

Prominence - Bonds plays "America's Pastime", just passed the most historic figure of that sport for the second spot on the most prestigious record of that sport. Landis rides a bicycle in France.

Appearance - Landis is an ugly, skinny, white guy. He's one of us. Now that's someone we can all relate to right?

Media - After the Tour win, there were glowing stories about this former Mennonite who enjoys having a couple of beers, used to work all night and then ride his bike for miles to chase his passion. Bonds doesn't give reporters interviews, which is the equivalent of biting the hand that feeds you, and his public persona reflects that.

A number of years ago the US olympic cyling team was busted for doping when in fact there was no doping involved. They trained at a high altitude which made their bodies produce more white blood cells (or something like that). The blood was extracted and during the tournament was i.v.'d back in. (It helped with recovery time or something.)

I thought that is exactly what blood doping was? And Jordan's medications were probably OK with the NBA's list of banned substances.

Is anyone going to mention masking agents? Or while we're at it are we going to talk about our own athletes? This is a North Texas athletics site after all. Do we dare talk about the elephant in the room?

The masking agent point is a good one. What if the second sample is negative? Could that mean that his masking agent just failed on the first one?

Talking about our own athletes would get this thread deleted very quickly, and there is probably good reason for that.

I do believe that college and pro football is getting a HUGE free ride when it comes to steroids and HGH. If we knew the truth about college football players and performance enhancing drugs, it would be the worst sports scandal since the Black Sox. We like to pretend it goes on everywhere else, or conveniently with pro athletes we love to hate, but it is right here under our nose.

But sports are supposed to give you a hobby, something to take you out of the real world for a little while. It brings us joy and comraderie, so it is probably a good thing that the actual numbers of steroid or HGH users are unknown, we are all better off for it. I have this feeling that someday the house of cards may fall and it will take all sports a long, long time to recover when it does.

H-towngreen · July 28, 2006

No the grand jury is still going on. Thats why Bond's buddy and trainer is going back to jail, for a second time.

untStein · July 28, 2006

In the whole talk of Bonds/Landis or Bonds/Armstrong it is so much easier to to pick on Bonds because he is a jerk. Hopefully Landis is innocent. If not, it's a huge disappointment.

July 28, 2006

No the grand jury is still going on. Thats why Bond's buddy and trainer is going back to jail, for a second time.
←

Yep, because if he is convicted of tax evasion then that proves that he used steroids! Right?!

Also, did someone just try to defend blood doping? Then try to relate that to taking medication for the flu? Blood doping = illegal. Flu medication = flu medication.

It is pretty sickening how people either completely ignore the double standard or try to defend it. Bonds has never had a positive test, and federal investigators can't find anything on him or else they wouldn't be trying to convict him of tax evasion or tried to get Grimsley, a person who probably never met Bonds, to wear a wire and talk to Bonds about steroids. Yet it seems like he is guilty until proven innocent. Now Landis does have a positive test and everyone is so quick defend him and believes he is only guilty if he is proven guilty... twice.

Let's not stop there. Palmero testing positive got a tiny fraction of the attention that Bonds has gotten. Why is that? Because Palmero is a likable guy? What about Mark McGuire? If Bonds is guilty of using steroids then using the same logic then McGuire is no doubt guilty of using steroids. Why do people seem to ignore him? Or Sosa? The two guys who brought back baseball from after the strike are getting a pass although it is obvious that they did a little more than lift a few weights to get as huge as they did. Not to mention reports of McGuire's horrible back acne. Anyone see Sosa's roid rage in the tunnel while after his turn in the home run derby a few years ago? But baseball has been very very good to him and hes a likable guy, right?

Bonds might be guilty and Landis, Armstrong, Palmero, McGuire and Sosa might all be innocent. Whatever. I just want people to drop the double standard and to quit being hypocrites.

Edited July 28, 2006 by e-bone

FirefightnRick · July 29, 2006

Yep, because if he is convicted of tax evasion then that proves that he used steroids! Right?!
Also, did someone just try to defend blood doping? Then try to relate that to taking medication for the flu? Blood doping = illegal. Flu medication = flu medication.
It is pretty sickening how people either completely ignore the double standard or try to defend it. Bonds has never had a positive test, and federal investigators can't find anything on him or else they wouldn't be trying to convict him of tax evasion or tried to get Grimsley, a person who probably never met Bonds, to wear a wire and talk to Bonds about steroids. Yet it seems like he is guilty until proven innocent. Now Landis does have a positive test and everyone is so quick defend him and believes he is only guilty if he is proven guilty... twice.
Let's not stop there. Palmero testing positive got a tiny fraction of the attention that Bonds has gotten. Why is that? Because Palmero is a likable guy? What about Mark McGuire? If Bonds is guilty of using steroids then using the same logic then McGuire is no doubt guilty of using steroids. Why do people seem to ignore him? Or Sosa? The two guys who brought back baseball from after the strike are getting a pass although it is obvious that they did a little more than lift a few weights to get as huge as they did. Not to mention reports of McGuire's horrible back acne. Anyone see Sosa's roid rage in the tunnel while after his turn in the home run derby a few years ago? But baseball has been very very good to him and hes a likable guy, right?
Bonds might be guilty and Landis, Armstrong, Palmero, McGuire and Sosa might all be innocent. Whatever. I just want people to drop the double standard and to quit being hypocrites.
←

I can't see how hypocrisy comes into play when you compare apples to oranges. Always with the name calling.

Rick

July 29, 2006

I can't see how hypocrisy comes into play when you compare apples to oranges. Always with the name calling.
Rick
←

Yep, comparing Bonds and McGuire is just like comparing apples and oranges. Baseball stars. Home run record breakers. Noticable increase in size over a few year span. And so on. You got me man, they just don't compare at all.