A Little Trivia - Who Woulda Thunk

[MeanGreen61]

Slow, so here's a little triva from the past. The Howell Rating system has North Texas in their season end Top Twenty 3 times. 1959,1977 & 1978. Here's how the current 1A Texas schools were ranked at the time.

1959

#6 Texas

#9 TCU

#19 North Texas

#25 SMU

#47 Baylor

#63 Texas Tech

#70 Texas A&M

#79 Rice

#93 Houston

#96 UTEP

1977

#3 Texas

#16 North Texas

#24 Texas A&M

#36 Texas Tech

#42 Houston

#50 Baylor

#77 SMU

#118 TCU

#127 Rice

#133 UTEP

1978

#8 Texas

#11 Houston

#18 North Texas

#32 Texas Tech

#33 Texas A&M

#42 SMU

#62 Baylor

#108 Rice

#112 TCU

#134 UTEP

It's no wonder that the 'privates' didn't want NT in the SWC in 1977/1978

HOWELL RANKINGS

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/cfindex.htm

[SilverEagle]

It's no wonder that the 'privates' didn't want NT in the SWC in 1977/1978

HOWELL RANKINGS

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/cfindex.htm

←

I've often wondered. Were they afraid of us......or what Hayden Fry might have been able to do with us.

[untbowler]

and look where we are 28 years later and 4 Sun Belt Titles in our Trophy Case. We are last in the state.

Our school admins have done a bang up job bringing UNT back to the forefront.

Edited June 27, 2006 by untbowler

[pollock]

and look where we are 28 years later and 4 Sun Belt Titles in our Trophy Case. We are last in the state. 

←

True, although 12-24 months ago we would have been right in the middle of that list. What a difference a year makes.

[MeanGreen61]

I've often wondered. Were they afraid of us......or what Hayden Fry might have been able to do with us.

←

Maybe both ?

[meangreendork]

Both. The other schools didn't want to compete with NT on a fair field, so they decided they'd just pull the field from underneath the program.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Most of the SWC supported our entry or at least voted to admit us, especially UT and Arkansas. SMU did not want metroplex competition from a state school and convinced TCU and Baylor that we were as threat to them and their programs. SMU absolutely did not want Fry to succeed at UNT after they had released him either. SMU deserves a lot of "credit" or blame for the situation we are now in. Some on the board want some of we older guys to let by-gones be bygones..... and I might have forgiven them if our "history" had not been changed by their act and we are still struggling to become a athletic power. We have also put up with snide remarks and insults from them for decades.... that doesn't go away. This is far more than traditional athletic rivalries that many schools have.... there is a multitude of reasons to dislike them.

---Florida State was independent and in about the same situation at that time as we were and we know how they have turned out.

---It will not likely happen but I would really enjoy a game like we dished out to Baylor about 3 years ago. They have earned it and deserve it.

Edited June 28, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

---Most of the SWC supported our entry or at least voted to admit us, especially UT and Arkansas.  SMU did not want metroplex competition from a state school and convinced TCU and Baylor that we were as threat to them and their programs.  SMU absolutely did not want Fry to succeed at UNT after they had released him either.  SMU deserves a lot of "credit" or blame for the situation we are now in.  Some on the board want some of we older guys to let by-gones be bygones..... and I might have forgiven them if our "history" had not been changed by their act and we are still struggling  to become a athletic power.  We have also put up with snide remarks and insults from them for decades.... that doesn't go away.  This is far more than traditional athletic rivalries that many schools have.... there is a multitude of reasons to dislike them.

---Florida State was independent and in about the same situation at that time as we were and we know how they have turned out.

---It will not likely happen but I would really enjoy a game like we dished out to Baylor about 3 years ago.  They have earned it and deserve it.

←

I don't know where you got your information about MOST of the SWC supporting our entry into the conference. If most had supported us, DKR would have twisted a few arms and would've gotten us in. According to an Assistant AD, there were only three that said OK at the time. SMU, TCU, Baylor and Rice were against us because we were another big, state school. They were the bottom four at the time and would've had another team above them. Arkansas didn't want us either. It was not because they didn't like us but because we were located in Texas. They were the only 'outsider' and resented it. According to more than one source, Houston had also been against us because it would've elevated us back to an equal status (we were conference mates in the Lone Star and Missouri Valley converences).

You are right about SMU not wanting Hayden to succeed after they had fired him. That was the word on the street and they didn't deny it. SMU probably had the most influence at that time but I'm not sure that it was enough to pull the other privates in line. The one that galled me even more than SMU at the time was Baylor. It was Hayden Fry's alma mater as well as the alma mater of our most successful coaches and yet they wouldn't support him.

[pollock]

---It will not likely happen but I would really enjoy a game like we dished out to Baylor about 3 years ago.  They have earned it and deserve it.

←

Preach on, brother.

[pollock]

SMU probably had the most influence at that time but I'm not sure that it was enough to pull the other privates in line. 

←

Don't underestimate SMU's ability to pull on others' privates.

[eulesseagle]

IMHO, you can not keep blaming SMU, Rice, TCU etc etc etc......keeping NTSU out of the SWC as the demise of our athletic program 30 years ago (or so)!!!

1. Winning still comes down to coaching, P.R. and recruiting.

2. Since Coach Fry NTSU/UNT has had a losing record verses an overall winning record, up to Coach Fry's departure to Iowa.

3. The BOR put NTSU into the situation it is currently in by "dumping" us into D-1AA and kept giving the athletic department a "spartan" budget. However, there have been other schools that have climbed out of D-1AA into the D-1 arena and have been more sucessful than UNT.

4. The BOR has kept giving our athletic department a "spartan" budget for the last 30 years and has not allowed us to get the coaches we deserve. Face it, UNT is nothing more than a stepping stone for coaches who want to move up. Well, errrrr, in our case since Coach Fry it has been the "death bell" for all those who have taken the coaching position at UNT!!! I do not know of one coach who actually advanced after being fired from UNT after Coach Fry.

For those who keep blaming the private schools, 30 years ago, for the demise of our current situation take a Midol and go lay down for a while (this medical advise if free from Dr. ee).

[GreenEddieNT]

IMHO, you can not keep blaming SMU, Rice, TCU etc etc etc......keeping NTSU out of the SWC as the demise of our athletic program 30 years ago (or so)!!!

1.  Winning still comes down to coaching, P.R. and recruiting.

2.  Since Coach Fry NTSU/UNT has had a losing record verses an overall winning record, up to Coach Fry's departure to Iowa.

3.  The BOR put NTSU into the situation it is currently in by "dumping" us into D-1AA and kept giving the athletic department a "spartan" budget.  However, there have been other schools that have climbed out of D-1AA into the D-1 arena and have been more sucessful than UNT.

4.  The BOR has kept giving our athletic department a "spartan" budget for the last 30 years and has not allowed us to get the coaches we deserve.  Face it, UNT is nothing more than a stepping stone for coaches who want to move up.  Well, errrrr, in our case since Coach Fry it has been the "death bell" for all those who have taken the coaching position at UNT!!!  I do not know of one coach who actually advanced after being fired from UNT after Coach Fry.

For those who keep blaming the private schools, 30 years ago,  for the demise of our current situation take a Midol and go lay down for a while  (this medical advise if free from Dr. ee).

←

Exactly, at some point we have to look in the mirror and realize that our leadership, or lack thereof, has been our own worst enemy. If not getting into the SWC was such a killer then how do you account for the rise of a school like UTEP? They didn't get into the SWC either. Heck, look at TCU who actually saw the SWC disappear around them and yet they've managed to do pretty well for themselves in spite of that. Ultimately, we have no one to blame but ourselves. If other schools can do it, why can't we? That is the question we ought to be asking.

Edited June 28, 2006 by GreenEddieNT

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

IMHO, you can not keep blaming SMU, Rice, TCU etc etc etc......keeping NTSU out of the SWC as the demise of our athletic program 30 years ago (or so)!!!

1.  Winning still comes down to coaching, P.R. and recruiting.

2.  Since Coach Fry NTSU/UNT has had a losing record verses an overall winning record, up to Coach Fry's departure to Iowa.

3.  The BOR put NTSU into the situation it is currently in by "dumping" us into D-1AA and kept giving the athletic department a "spartan" budget.  However, there have been other schools that have climbed out of D-1AA into the D-1 arena and have been more sucessful than UNT.

4.  The BOR has kept giving our athletic department a "spartan" budget for the last 30 years and has not allowed us to get the coaches we deserve.  Face it, UNT is nothing more than a stepping stone for coaches who want to move up.  Well, errrrr, in our case since Coach Fry it has been the "death bell" for all those who have taken the coaching position at UNT!!!  I do not know of one coach who actually advanced after being fired from UNT after Coach Fry.

For those who keep blaming the private schools, 30 years ago,  for the demise of our current situation take a Midol and go lay down for a while  (this medical advise if free from Dr. ee).

←

---I am not sure what you meant by statement #2. Fry won 62.9% of his games at UNT despite a rough first year or two before he got the program (back) in shape. I agree the dropping of the UNT to I-AA was like sending us to "purgatory" but that would have never happened without SMU shooting us down and keeping us out of the SWC---so they get a lot of credit for that as well. We would be entirely different had we become a SWC member... I don't even think it is a stretch that we would be in the Big-XII instead of Baylor. We would be greatly different had we become a SWC member and upgraded everything including fan interest and attendence. Fortunately we survived the I-AA "drop" in status... Lamer, UT-Arlington, and West Texas did not. With a SWC membership the BOR would have come around to make us competitive and we would have had much better attendence and media interest.

---You seem to forget that we were doing well in basketball as well at that time with 20+ wins per year and had recently left the MVC which was the best basketball conference in American with Lousiville, Cincinnatti, Memphis, et al. At one time during my senior year (before conference games started) 5 of the top ten teams were MVC members. The SEC was well known but not that good since they were just becoming integrated and the SWC was rather lousy except Arkansas. UCLA had been the best basketball team but not from a great conference which was getting better with they added Ariz and Ariz State to become 10 teams. Some SWC teams wanted a 10-team SWC also but SMU did not it want it to be us..

--I do not feel the same about TCU or Baylor, they voted against us but haven't constatntly trashed us and weren't so insanely against us then either. They might have eventually agreed to admit us but Fry left and as you said the program went down and we then sentenced to purgatoty, I-AA.

---Again, I would not feel bad if we defeated SMU by 100, unfortunately it isn't likely. SMU has gained my hatred the old-fashioned way-- they earned it."

.

Edited June 28, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[eulesseagle]

ScreamingEagle66--

You have no argument with me on your last statements.

1. Concerning #2: Since Coach Fry departed (perhaps I should have said, "after Coach Fry departed."

2. During Coach Fry's tenure at NTSU we went from the MVC to Independent. If you remember during this time frame there were "very strong" Independent teams and a lot more than what there are now. Since other MVC teams were dropping out of the MVC, at this time, NTSU did so to pursue the second best alternative other than the SWC. At that time this move seemed appropriate. 30 years down the "pike" this move was probably not in our best interest.

3. We did have a strong BB program for a period of time but could not capitalize on its continued success like other schools such as Gonzaga.

4. Wichita State is thinking about going back to FB:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/foot...e.ap/index.html

Here is what UTEP/FAU would tell them: Hire a Howard S (FAU) or Mike Price (UTEP).

Here is what UNT would tell them: Hire an assistant coach.

If you are looking for revenue hire a proven leader who will make your school into a winner. On the flip side, if you are looking "just" to play football for Saturday night entertainment in Wichita, Kansas then hire an assistant coach somewhere, hope he has good P.R. skills and hire some assistants that don't get into screaming matches with supporters in the stands at halftime.

Unfortunately, our current situation is our current situation. As one of my preachers once said, " there is nothing you can do about yesterday but you can start today to make a new tomorrow."

(someone stop me I am full of great advise today....free advise from Dr. ee)

[GreenEddieNT]

---I am not sure what you meant by statement #2.  Fry won 62.9% of his games at UNT despite a rough first year or two before he got the program (back) in shape.  I agree the dropping of the UNT to I-AA was like sending us to "purgatory" but that would have never happened without SMU shooting us down and keeping us out of the SWC---so they get a lot of credit for that as well.  We would be entirely different had we become a SWC member... I don't even think it is a stretch that we would be in the Big-XII instead of Baylor.  We would be greatly different had we become a SWC member and upgraded everything including fan interest and attendence.  Fortunately we survived the I-AA "drop" in status... Lamer, UT-Arlington, and West Texas did not.  With a SWC membership the BOR would have come around to make us competitive and we would have had much better attendence and media interest.

---You seem to forget that we were doing well in basketball as well at that time with 20+ wins per year and had recently left the MVC which was the best basketball conference in American with Lousiville, Cincinnatti, Memphis,  et al.  At one time during my senior year (before conference games started) 5 of the top ten teams were MVC members. The SEC was well known but not that good since they were just becoming integrated and the SWC was rather lousy except Arkansas.  UCLA had been the best basketball team but not from a great conference which was getting better with they added Ariz and Ariz State to become 10 teams. Some SWC teams wanted a 10-team SWC also but SMU did not it want it to be us.. 

--I do not feel the same about TCU or Baylor, they voted against us but haven't constatntly trashed us and weren't so insanely against us then either.  They might have eventually agreed to admit us but Fry left and as you said the program went down and we then sentenced to purgatoty, I-AA.

---Again, I would not feel bad if we defeated SMU by 100, unfortunately it isn't likely.  SMU has gained my hatred the old-fashioned way-- they earned it."

.

←

This is why we don't make progress. Instead of admitting what is really holding us back and getting to work on correcting it we just spend our time feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming some big SMU conspiracy for everything wrong with our athletics program. Is it SMU's fault that we didn't fire DD and JJ? The fact that we have lousy football and basketball coaches is our own fault. It's also our fault that we are stuck in the Sun Belt. We had a chance to go to the WAC and, potentially, get a step closer to CUSA and yet we chose to play it safe in the kiddie pool instead of moving up and swimming with the bigger kids. You can't blame SMU for us dropping to 1-AA either. Like I said, UTEP didn't get into the SWC either but that didn't make them drop out of 1-A. Besides the SWC has been gone for 10 years now. We can no longer use that as an excuse. It's a lot easier to blame others than to admit that our leaders have been lazy and foolish.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

This is why we don't make progress.  Instead of admitting what is really holding us back and getting to work on correcting it we just spend our time feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming some big SMU conspiracy for everything wrong with our athletics program.  Is it SMU's fault that we didn't fire DD and JJ?  The fact that we have lousy football and basketball coaches is our own fault.  It's also our fault that we are stuck in the Sun Belt.  We had a chance to go to the WAC and, potentially, get a step closer to CUSA and yet we chose to play it safe in the kiddie pool instead of moving up and swimming with the bigger kids.  You can't blame SMU for us dropping to 1-AA either.  Like I said, UTEP didn't get into the SWC either but that didn't make them drop out of 1-A.  Besides the SWC has been gone for 10 years now.  We can no longer use that as an excuse.  It's a lot easier to blame others than to admit that our leaders have been lazy and foolish.

←

.

---I don't think you understand what I am saying. I don't blame SMU for "everything" and maybe we could have done better but at least we did better than UTA, West Texas and Lamar after being sentenced to I-AA. we survived. A SWC membership would have increased media and fan interest and increased attendence greatly. That would have changed everything and might have eventually put us in the Big-XII but it did not happen thanks largely to SMU. That opportunity to upgrade that much has NEVER happened again since.

---A comparison to UTEP is not valid. They are barely in Texas and far from any other university in Texas. They have always been a NCAA basketball contender but were awful in football. Their location with a large local population helps, no professsional teams nearby, plus they were in a rather recognized conference at that time (WAC) with BYU, Air Force, and even Ariz and Ariz St. until the late 70's. made their situation entirely diffenrence. For years they also excelled in NCAA track with many champonships as well. There was no chance of them becoming I-AA while in a conf with BYU etc. The WAC of that time was much better than what exists today, notice they left recently when given the chance. We were independent and just out of the MVC and SMU left us hung out to dry, then I-AA appeared at the worst possible time ..

---The entire situation has changed in the past ten years again... before then [1980-1996 approximately ] there was the SWC and UTEP in the WAC. We were in the Southland and being ignored ---and Lamar, UTA and West Texas were just throwing in the towel and giving up. We didn't.

---Doors open and close quickly and may never open again. SMU "slammed" that door in our face. If you don't understand that you are young and haven't seen much of life. When opportunites appear you need to grab them, the situation may never happen again. Ask anyone in business management, politics, or warfare... it is very obvious there. The same is true in football games as well.... it is often that a hole is wide open or a receiver is wide open.... you need to take advantage when it it available because it may never be there again. There is often little difference in success and failure ---one play, one vote (SMU), one decision, or even one second... Small details matter and even the last Presidential elections have been decided by less than 1% vote and each by one state and history has been changed..

Edited June 28, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Mad Hatter]

Don't underestimate SMU's ability to pull on others' privates.

←

I get it.