Sioux on warpath

[eulesseagle]

It is a bit long and will put all of PMG's posts to shame but the President of University of North Dakota defends their mascot and hits about a law suit against the NCAA.

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/log...er_6-07-06.html

[Huff]

I hope they are successful in their lawsuit. The NCAA stepped over the line with this issue.

[SilverEagle]

I hope they are successful in their lawsuit.  The NCAA stepped over the line with this issue.

←

I totally agree. I guess it's easier to go after things like this, with the blessing of the "PC" crowd, than it is to go after cheating at big time Universities.

[FirefightnRick]

I hope you understand that as the chief executive officer of the University of North Dakota, I am – as I have been – doing my best to implement a State Board of Higher Education policy governing our nickname and logo.  I must also admit to a personal dislike and aversion to the corruption of logic in the convoluted process you used in arriving at your decisions.  Also, because I am a graduate of Indiana University of Pennsylvania, spent time at the University of Illinois in a post-doctoral program, and serve as president of UND, I know directly what great institutions these are.  They all deserve better from the NCAA than to be charged with decades of being hostile and abusive – with a presumption of guilt.  I wonder if you really have any idea how serious these charges are.  I admit that because of my sense of justice and fairness, I would have taken personal issue with what you have done here in any case.

To begin with, you asserted that any use of American Indian images or nicknames was hostile and abusive.  Later you changed this to hostile or abusive – as if this were meaningful in some way.  Some of your initial rhetoric actually encompassed nicknames derived from any race or ethnic group.  Many of us heard Myles Brand in a radio interview say that “Fighting Irish” was not a problem nickname because (his words) it was really about leprechauns and not real people.  Really?

We explained that we have a beautiful logo designed by a respected American Indian artist and that we use the nickname with consummate respect – expecting and getting respect for the Sioux culture from our fans.  We pointed out that we do not do tomahawk chops, we do not have white guys painted up like Indians, and our fans do not do Indian chants.

The fundamental irrationality of calling what we do hostile and abusive – on the basis of no basis at all – and then saying that a white guy in war paint, carrying a flaming spear while riding a horse into a stadium, leading fans in a tomahawk chop while singing an Indian chant is okay should be obvious to any jury.  Any who try to swallow this convoluted logic will choke on it.

The NCAA’s organizational arrogance extends to the innovative and abusive use of the English language.  You indicated that Florida State University was exempted because it has a “special relationship” with the Seminoles.  At the time you said this, Florida State enrolled just four Seminole students.  We have one-hundred times more Indian students here, yet FSU’s is a “special relationship” while ours, you say, is “hostile and abusive.”

"Although the NCAA executive committee continues to believe the stereotyping of Native Americans is wrong, it recognizes that a Native American Tribe is a distinct political community . . . therefore, respects the authority of the tribe to permit universities and colleges to use its name and imagery."

The arrogance of this statement is appalling.  It is as if to say, “American Indians may think it is OK, but the NCAA knows better,” or perhaps, “If these tribes (now at least six in number) are not astute enough to recognize that they are the objects of hostility and abuse, let them wallow in it.”  Further, if a Native American tribe is a “distinct political community,” why is it that the continuing resolution by the Spirit Lake Nation that allows UND to use the Sioux name is – in the NCAA’s words – “not persuasive?”

Instead of the logical conclusion that if American Indians, themselves, think Indian nicknames are OK, perhaps they really are OK, we get the latest in a long series of non-Natives deciding what’s best for American Indians.

By the way, it was widely and cynically noted here that “Pontiac” is a corporate sponsor of the NCAA.  But perhaps this is unfair; both the NCAA and General Motors may well have gotten the permission of the descendants of Chief Pontiac or the Ottawa Tribe.

There may be no way out of this dilemma except litigation.

We are concerned that even if we were to cave in and change our name, you might subsequently hold us hostage until the great State of North Dakota changes all of its state highway signs which now depict a silhouette of an Indian.  You might, some say, insist that the Indian logos on the doors of all of our (marked) Highway Patrol cars be removed.

How far does the NCAA think its jurisdiction goes?  Does it extend into history?  Do you really expect us to airbrush all of the references to Sioux off the jerseys of our many national championship teams – on the many photographs and championship banners lining the walls of our sports venues?

And get this:  even if we were to stop using the nickname we have used with pride for nearly eighty years, and decided to forgo any nickname – since they may all be at some future risk – and simply be known as the University of North Dakota and used the University’s seal or even the State Seal, we would still apparently be in violation of your policy.  “Dakota” is what some of the Sioux actually call themselves.  Our University Seal and the State Seal have images of American Indians on them.

Imagine a scenario in which we bow to the NCAA and remove every vestige of our connection to our traditional nickname, and we earn the right to host one of the exempted schools, say Florida State, in a championship game.  Your policy would allow Florida State to come into town with its logo and nickname proudly displayed, led by someone who paints himself up like an Indian “on the warpath” and carries a flaming spear.  He could ride into our stadium on a horse and lead FSU fans in a tomahawk chop and an Indian chant.  This, while our fans, then the obvious victims of an unfair and irrational policy, seethe in rightful anger.

Should we stand firm and, with the support of North Dakota tribes, keep our nickname, we will, of course, be able to show substantial financial harm.  Since we recently hosted the West Regional Hockey Tournament, it will be easy to show the benefit to the University and to the community almost down to the penny – a benefit we would lose under your policy.

I have not until now mentioned the fundamental unfairness of depriving our student-athletes of earned home-venue advantage.  This strikes many of us as hostile to, and abusive of, the very group the NCAA is supposed to protect.  This, we believe, is also fundamentally irrational.

Perhaps the most amazing thing is that through all of this – except for stirring things up – you have accomplished nothing.  Your stand against Indian nicknames and logos – a stand that seemed to start out against all references to races and national origin – fizzled before it started when you left out Irish, Celtics, Vandals, and a host of other names.  Then, for highly convoluted, hypocritical, and in some instances mysterious reasons, you exempted the Aztecs and other American Indian nicknames at the outset and, following that, you exempted the use of Chippewa, the Utes, the Choctaws, the Catawbas, and the Seminoles, leaving the NCAA position on even American Indian nicknames about as solid as room-temperature Jell-O.  All of this was, and remains, highly arbitrary and capricious.

DAMN! what I would give for North Texas to have leadership at the administrative level that felt this driven to fight for our identity and traditions. This is a great read to see one small school stand up to the NCAA in writing in this way. I'm now a North Dakota Fighting Sioux fan from here on. I love their spirit. No wonder they have been so successful in athletics. Success is expected of them from the top down and they take deep pride in what they have accomplished.

Rick

[Arkstfan]

He's a lying SOB. The NCAA contacted the Tribe that purportedly supported their usage and they said they did not support it because they had conditioned that support many years ago on UND doing certain things and UND had failed to meet even one of the conditions.

[SilverEagle]

Is the University of Illinois being required to change the name of their mascot.

[UNTLifer]

He's a lying SOB. The NCAA contacted the Tribe that purportedly supported their usage and they said they did not support it because they had conditioned that support many years ago on UND doing certain things and UND had failed to meet even one of the conditions.

←

And the NCAA is a hypocritical SOB with their choices of who can and can't have this type of mascot.

Edited June 14, 2006 by UNTLifer

[Arkstfan]

And the NCAA is a hypocritical SOB with their choices of how can and can't have this type of mascot.

←

The NCAA has never said you can't have the mascot of your choosing, you just can't have the word or a picture of it on your uniforms at their post-season events.

[FirefightnRick]

The NCAA has never said you can't have the mascot of your choosing, you just can't have the word or a picture of it on your uniforms at their post-season events.

←

Doesn't matter, and he already mentioned there was an opposition group(as there is in ANYTHING) in North Dakota already in this letter but it seems they are a very small voice. Seems they have a very large support group on this. I hope they win in court.

Rick

Edited June 14, 2006 by FirefightnRick

[Arkstfan]

I find the entire premise stupid. Like someone sat around laughing saying let's be Indians or Sioux or Braves while every other schools picked Lions, Tigers and Bears to not be funny.

The very idea that it is a point of ridicule shows an utter lack of contact with the three dimensional universe we inhabit on planet Earth.

Despite that, the NCAA crafted its rules very well and the odds of success in court are quite slim.

[eulesseagle]

ArkstFan-

You are right.....the NCAA are hypocrits who cater to the "haves" and not the "have nots."

UND has stated their case very clearly and has shown that the NCAA is only politically correct when it serves their financial needs.

Perhaps your anger comes from Arkansas State "bowing" to the NCAA like they were some magical power like some people bow to the ACLU.

Since you feel that the UND president is a "Lying SOB" he has enough guts to stand up to the NCAA where the president of Arkansas State did not. Perhaps your logo can have your neutered wolf's tail between his legs and a hung head.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Perhaps half (or more) of the States should change their names. Most have an Indian tribe name or Indian word name. PC can only go so far.

---Who knows, the next target may those with violet animal names such as Wolves, Lions, Eagles, Cougars, etc.

Edited June 14, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[TIgreen01]

ArkstFan-

You are right.....the NCAA are hypocrits who cater to the "haves" and not the "have nots."

UND has stated their case very clearly and has shown that the NCAA is only politically correct when it serves their financial needs. 

Perhaps your anger comes from Arkansas State "bowing" to the NCAA like they were some magical power like some people bow to the ACLU.

Since you feel that the UND president is a "Lying SOB" he has enough guts to stand up to the NCAA where the president of Arkansas State did not.  Perhaps your logo can have your neutered wolf's tail between his legs and a hung head.

←

Ouch!...why the hate? ArkStFan is usually right on the money with this kind of background info. What is the new ASU mascot if they are no longer the Indians? I do think the NCAA way overstepped it's bounds with this rule and the additional rulings they continue to make which allow some schools to keep their mascots while others cannot only adds fuel to the fire of public perception....but this UND prez makes an awful lot of mention of his own 'personal' feelings on the matter, which to me, weaken his comments.

[eulesseagle]

Let it be known that I am not mad at ArkStFan.

My analogy was between the two presidents of UND and ASU.

The UND president is going to fight the NCAA while the ASU president did nothing more than to give up without a fight.

My reference was toward the ASU logo than a personal attack at ArkStFan. At least I did not call ArkStFan a lying SOB like he did to the president of UND.....if it be true or not.

Besides, after UNT get through with them they WILL feel like a neutered wolf with his/her/its tail stuck between it's legs.

[TIgreen01]

Let it be known that I am not mad at ArkStFan.

My analogy was between the two presidents of UND and ASU.

The UND president is going to fight the NCAA while the ASU president did nothing more than to give up without a fight.

My reference was toward the ASU logo than a personal attack at ArkStFan.  At least I did not call ArkStFan a lying SOB like he did to the president of UND.....if it be true or not.

Besides, after UNT get through with them they WILL feel like a neutered wolf with his/her/its tail stuck between it's legs.

←

Ok...so what is ASU's new nickname? There is no mention of any changes on their athletic website...

[UNTLifer]

Despite that, the NCAA crafted its rules very well and the odds of success in court are quite slim.

←

Then how does the NCAA justify allowing Florida State to have a mascot throw a flaming spear at midfield, a tradition I personally love although not a big FSU fan, or allow the Fighting Irish keep their nicknames but goes after North Dakota? Could it be $$$$ FSU and ND generate on an annual basis for the NCAA give them a little advantage over the North Dakotas and Arkansas States of the world?

[Stan R]

Then how does the NCAA justify allowing Florida State to have a mascot throw a flaming spear at midfield, a tradition I personally love although not a big FSU fan, or allow the Fighting Irish keep their nicknames but goes after North Dakota?  Could it be $$$$ FSU and ND generate on an annual basis for the NCAA give them a little advantage over the North Dakotas and Arkansas States of the world?

←

Actually it is because they can afford better attorneys..

[centex eagle]

this president has great upper level thinking skills!!! no telling his SAT score potential. Good luck ND. may the courts and fairness be with you.

[adman]

Ok...so what is ASU's new nickname?  There is no mention of any changes on their athletic website...

←

The Arkansas State Spelunkers. (Due to the President caving to the NCAA)

[Stan R]

The Arkansas State Spelunkers.  (Due to the President caving to the NCAA)

←

queue rim shot please.

[adman]

queue rim shot please. 

←

Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the veal.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Actually it is because they can afford better attorneys.. 

←

---Hire an attorney from the North Texas Law School.... Oh yeah, the State Legislature approved it then did not provide any funding......

Edited June 15, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[eulesseagle]

I thought the statement by the president of UND was a very eloquent middle finger to the ncaa.

[adman]

I thought the statement by the president of UND was a very eloquent middle finger to the ncaa.

←

As well as the legislature of North Dakota

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-i...ov=ap&type=lgns

[eulesseagle]

Posted on Thu, Jun. 15, 2006email thisprint thisreprint or license thisNorth Dakota to sue NCAA over university's nicknameDALE WETZEL

Associated Press

WILLISTON, N.D. - State officials voted Thursday to sue the NCAA for penalizing the University of North Dakota over its "Fighting Sioux" nickname and Indian-head logo.

Following a meeting with state Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem, the North Dakota Board of Higher Education voted 8-0 to authorize the lawsuit, which would be handled by Stenehjem.

The NCAA last year announced a ban on ethnically or racially "hostile" or "abusive" nicknames, mascots and imagery at championship events. It found 18 schools, including UND, in violation of the policy.

Several of those schools have since changed team names and mascots or won appeals after local tribes came to their defense. In UND's case, though, the NCAA rejected the appeal and told the school it may not use the Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian-head logo during NCAA postseason tournaments, nor host a tournament if it continues to use them.

Stenehjem complained that the NCAA's decision was delivered by a committee that used constantly changing standards.

Teams that have continued using Indian nicknames with the NCAA's blessing include the Florida State University Seminoles, Central Michigan University Chippewas and the University of Utah Utes.

NCAA President Myles Brand has said the NCAA will defend its policy "to the utmost."

The lawsuit will be paid for out of private funds, not taxpayer money, officials said.

A number of Indian tribes and students want the university to drop the nickname and logo. One official with the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe wrote a letter supporting the university, but another opposed the nickname.

ON THE NET

http://www.und.edu

http://www.ncaa.org