If

[eulesseagle]

If Pres. Wilson did not commit our troops in WWI would there been WWII?

I say no.

this is to get us off the stadium issue, recruiting issue, attendance issue and ragging each other about moot topics until Sept.

[Quoner]

If Pres. Wilson did not commit our troops in WWI would there been WWII?

I say no.

this is to get us off the stadium issue, recruiting issue, attendance issue and ragging each other about moot topics until Sept.

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I don't know that answer - but I'll tell you who wouldn't have committed troops - Darrell Q. Dickey.

He would have told everyone the USA has the worst situation in the world because he works there everyday. Then he only would have won 7 wars (mostly against 3rd world countries) and lost 38 - including some to some nations that used to be the same size as ours. Also, he would not promote the US during peace time or interviews and also not enjoy when message boards made fun of his troops.

What an A hole.

Did I cover every cliche? Should we bring RV, marketing, and building into this as well? I just want to make sure we take every opportunity possible to take a shot at the man...

[IslandEagle]

If Pres. Wilson did not commit our troops in WWI would there been WWII?

I say no.

this is to get us off the stadium issue, recruiting issue, attendance issue and ragging each other about moot topics until Sept.

←

Interesting issue. You can make a good argument either way. I've just finished reading a couple of books, one on WWI and one on the Paris Peace Accords of 1919. In the long run, historians are tending to view WWII as essentially a continuation of WWI.

You can also make a pretty good case that if we didn't aid the Taliban in throwing the Russians out of Afghanistan, then Al-Quida may have never gotten so well organized. As it was, the Soviet Union was doomed to collapse ultimately regardless of the outcome in Afghanistan. In fact, the longer they stayed there the worse it was for them because as the British found out before them and we are now finding out, the place is totally ungovernable..

But, frankly, I come to this board for the football mostly and am looking forward to seeing how our recruits do in the various all-star games.

[GangGreen]

If Pres. Wilson did not commit our troops in WWI would there been WWII?

I say no.

this is to get us off the stadium issue, recruiting issue, attendance issue and ragging each other about moot topics until Sept.

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It's like the Kevin Bacon deal. All evils and wars throughout history can be traced back to the USA.

Give me a break.

[Eagle1855]

I don't know that answer - but I'll tell you who wouldn't have committed troops - Darrell Q. Dickey.

He would have told everyone the USA has the worst situation in the world because he works there everyday. Then he only would have won 7 wars (mostly against 3rd world countries) and lost 38 - including some to some nations that used to be the same size as ours. Also, he would not promote the US during peace time or interviews and also not enjoy when message boards made fun of his troops.

What an A hole.

←

outstanding work. spot on, spot on.

[SilverEagle]

It's like the Kevin Bacon deal. All evils and wars throughout history can be traced back to the USA.

Give me a break.

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One of the advanced history courses that I took in College was "Europe between the World Wars". It was actually the history of the rise of Nazi Germany. There were strong indications in the course material that indicated that had France not humiliated Germany in the Paris Peace Accords, there wouldn't have been the ideal conditions for the Nazi's to come to power.

In other words, some historians feel that France created that monster.

[SilverEagle]

It's like the Kevin Bacon deal. All evils and wars throughout history can be traced back to the USA.

Give me a break.

←

One of the advanced history courses that I took in College was "Europe between the World Wars". It was actually the history of the rise of Nazi Germany. There were strong indications in the course material that indicated that had France not humiliated Germany in the Paris Peace Accords, there wouldn't have been the ideal conditions for the Nazi's to come to power.

In other words, some historians feel that France created that monster.

[MeanGreen61]

In other words, some historians feel that France created that monster.

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Not the only or last monster the Froggies created

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Absolutely different... if the darn French had just surrendered in the beginning of The Great War ( WWI) and not sent the taxi-cab army out from Paris to stop the Germans then there would have been no France and the German Royal family would have still have been in power after the war. (WWI) .... thus no Hitler....

---Blame the French...... it is the in thing.... Too many "IF's" to make reasonable "what if" conclusions ---other than --- Things would have been somewhat different. Of course had Napolean succeeded in 1812 in Russia or not gone into Russia. things would have been different as well, for a while he had taken most of Europe.

Too many "IF's" to make reasonable "what if" conclusions ---other than --- Things would have been somewhat different.

[ A descendent of a Prussian soldier and member of the Prussian Select Guard ]

Edited June 1, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[untbowler]

---Blame the French...... it is the in thing.... Too many "IF's" to make reasonable "what if" conclusions ---other than --- Things would have been somewhat different.  Of course had Napolean succeeded in 1812 in Russia  or not gone into Russia. things would have been different as well, for a while he had taken most of Europe.

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Eerily similar circumstances to Hitler trying to march into Russia also that turned the tide of WWII. If the Russian were not so strong Napoleon and Hitler both might have gained even more power and staying power. Scary thought.

[SilverEagle]

Eerily similar circumstances to Hitler trying to march into Russia also that turned the tide of WWII. If the Russian were not so strong Napoleon and Hitler both might have gained even more power and staying power. Scary thought.

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If the Russian Winters were not so strong.

[untbowler]

If the Russian Winters were not so strong.

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I knew Hitler had tested winters, but was unsure of Napoleon so just kept it at Russians.

Thanks for the correction

[bigrobdsp]

I would answer all of your questions, but then you could beat me at RISK

Edited June 1, 2006 by bigrobdsp

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

If the Russian Winters were not so strong.

←

Napolean basicly just starved out and was out of supplies. Winter and the inability to move supplies during the winter got him.

The Americans kept the Soviet Union in the fight in WWII with supplies and especially food which they were hurting for especcially in the winter months. The History Channel once stated that Stalin attibuted his army's survival to Spam which the Americans supplied.

Scary thought--absolutely.. the took the Americans, British Empire, Dutch shipping and oil, and the 100's of millions in the Soviet Union to defeat the German army and not in any short time either. Hitler was an evil man but the German army was unbelievable. There has never been another battle like Stalingrad... 1.2 million died, mostly Russians. I understand it was not lost on them that the Western Front commander was Eisenhower..a German name.... as was a US Pacific Naval commander, Nimitz.

Edited June 1, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[untbowler]

Napolean basicly just starved out and was out of supplies.  Winter and the inability to move supplies  during the winter got him.

The Americans kept the Soviet Union in the fight in WWII with supplies and especially food which they were hurting for especcially in the winter months.  The History Channel once stated that Stalin attibuted his army's success to Spam which the Americans supplied. 

Scary thought--absolutely.. the took the Americans, British Empire, Dutch shipping and oil, and the 100's of millions in the Soviet Union to defeat the German army and not in any short time either.  Hitler was an evil man but the German army was unbelievable.  There has never been another battle like Stalingrad... 1.2 million died, mostly Russians.  I understand it was not lost on them that the Western Front commander was Eisenhower..a German name.... as was a US Pacific Naval commander, Nimitz.

←

I think the Allies allowing the German Machine to steamroll Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other counties in Central Europe with little fight also helped the Germans in that they used little supplies and lost very few soldiers. If more of fight could have been put up in these places maybe Hitler would have backed off some, but he was very ambitious on his goals, whether we agree with them or not.

[MeanGreen61]

Lend Lease Program WWII LCI's (Landing craft infantry) returned by the Russians in 1955. Towed to Yokosuka, Japan & scrapped.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I think the Allies allowing the German Machine to steamroll Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other counties in Central Europe with little fight also helped the Germans in that they used little supplies and lost very few soldiers. If more of fight could have been put up in these places maybe Hitler would have backed off some, but he was very ambitious on his goals, whether we agree with them or not.

←

I am not "allow" is really the word. Stalin was taking Poland from the east as Hitler was invading from the west. The USA, so I have read, had less than 200,000 troops in 1939 and our aircraft were pretty much museum quality and we had few military weapons because of the extremely small military. The navy was fair at best. That left the Britain and France pretty much alone and France wasn't prepared at all and the British weren't much better and got pushed off the continent at Dunkirk rather quickly. The English Channel saved them.

To me the air Battle of Britain was huge. Britain stayed in the war and it gave us a place to organize and invade Europe. Had it fallen then Germany could have sent those Western front troops elsewhere as well. That is the big "IF" for Germany that could have changed everything..... and the history of the world. We were supplying British like crazy and the U-boats were sinking us big time before 1941 but we could not afford to enter the war with no real army.As my parent often told me that even in 1942 we were getting our tails kicked in North Africa against the Germans and in the Pacific by the Japanese... It was not obvious who would win.

The Soviets paid in millions of men but they likely could not have survived without American industrial might and agriculture (food) which was untouched by war.

Had the Germans completed their development of jets and nuclear weapons a little sooner it would gotten nearly impossible. It was a war to survive that we HAD to win unlike any other recent war.

Edited June 1, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[MeanGreen61]

I think the Allies allowing the German Machine to steamroll Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other counties in Central Europe with little fight also helped the Germans in that they used little supplies and lost very few soldiers. If more of fight could have been put up in these places maybe Hitler would have backed off some, but he was very ambitious on his goals, whether we agree with them or not.

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What Allies ? Germany invaded Czechoslovakia in March 1939. Poland fell in September 1939.

[untgirl04]

---Absolutely different... if the darn French had just surrendered in the beginning of The Great War ( WWI) and not sent the taxi-cab army out from Paris to stop the Germans then there would have been no France and the German Royal family would have still have been in power after the war.  (WWI) .... thus no Hitler....

---Blame the French...... it is the in thing.... Too many "IF's" to make reasonable "what if" conclusions ---other than --- Things would have been somewhat different.  Of course had Napolean succeeded in 1812 in Russia  or not gone into Russia. things would have been different as well, for a while he had taken most of Europe.

Too many "IF's" to make reasonable "what if" conclusions ---other than --- Things would have been somewhat different. 

[ A descendent of a Prussian soldier and member of the Prussian Select Guard ]

←

Actually, according to my Culture and History of the Weimar Republic (Germany's first attempt at democracy, and the period of time between WWI and WWII) class, Germany's method of electing leaders (aka vote for the party and they'll put the right leaders in place), as well as the stiff penalties imposed on Germany from WWI (which were favored by just about everyone but Wilson) were what led to Hitler's rise to power. Although the National Sozialistiche Deutche Arbeits Partei (NSDAP became Nazi party for short) was originally created as a blue collar worker party, Hitler gained purchase there for his brashness and speaking abilities, and somehow coerced the party president to name him Chancellor when the NSDAP won the election. Because Germany did, and still does to my knowledge, elect parties and leaders on a plurality, the NSDAP (Nazi) party won with only 30% or so of the vote. Within the year, Hitler proclaimed himself Fuehrer, disbanded the Reichstag (Parliament), and the President mysteriously died, leaving Hitler in total control of Germany.

He played off the country's heavy burden from WWI, rightfully pointing out that Germany took more than her fair share of the bargain (Italy's penalty was basically a slap on the wrist). Hitler gave the people a target for their anger in ethnically different people, specifically Jews and gypsies. While completely wrong, anti-Sementic views were not exactly scarce in those days.

[Minor in German]

[IslandEagle]

What Allies ? Germany invaded Czechoslovakia in March 1939. Poland fell in September 1939.

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Britain, France and Belgium had a mutual defence pact and were the "allies" during this period. Britain and France made overtures to the USSR, but were thrumped by the Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and Russia in the summer of 1939.

Germany occupied the Sudetenland after Munich in the Fall of 1938. Since the population was over 90% German, Britain and France were willing to go along with this, despite Czech protests. When Germany occupied Bohemia and Moravia in the Spring of 1939 (you can hardly call it an invasion since not a single shot was fired), it made Britain and France realize that they had been "taken" by Hitler. Prior to this, all his demands, the Ruhr, Austria and the Sudetenland were German-speaking areas and could be "theoretically" justified as an attempt to bring all Germans together into one nation. But, there was no way that the occupation of the rest of Czechoslovakia could be interpreted as anything but pure agrression.

It is easy to criticize Britain and France for being so blind, but they had suffered several million casualties just a little over 20 years earlier and public opinion in neither country was all that willing to get into another war. If you read Churchill's biography, even after the German invasion of Poland, he was wary of how much the British wanted to fight. Fortunately for him, but unfortunately for the Brits, the German bombing of civilian targets solidified public opinion for all out war with Germany.

[eulesseagle]

The correct answer is this:

The waring Europeans had virtually fought themselves to a standstill through attrition by 1917. The Russians had their Revolution because of the war, the French were on the verge of another mass desertion by their Army, England had no more men to spare and the German people were on the verge of starvation.

A truce would have been signed with nothing gained by 4 years of attrition on both sides.

The Germans would have been free to go after the Bolsovics and pound those bast@@@'s in the ground thus eliminating communism. With communism gone there would have been no Korean War, Vietnam....ie Cold War.....we could have all lived in peace.....until the Germans decided to kick the crap out of the Taliban.

What happened was that Wilson stuck his nose into something that Washington warned against, foriegn entanglements. Well, we disruped the balance of power in Europe. Germany paid dearly in reparations, fought off a minor communist takeover in Germany in the mid 1920's, distrusted the Bolsovics after that where they fought the commies again in Spain in the 30's then the Ruskies in the 40's.

Because of Wilson:

1. Hitler kills apx. 15 million or so Jews, Christians, Gypsies etc

2. Stalin Kills apx. 30 million of his own people through starvation.

3. Mao Tse-Tung kills apx. 100 million of his own people through starvation and war.

4. Pol Pot (Cambodian dictator in the 70's) kills millions of his own people.

That is why I dont vote Democratic

[MeanGreen61]

Britain, France and Belgium had a mutual defence pact and were the "allies" during this period. Britain and France made overtures to the USSR, but were thrumped by the Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and Russia in the summer of 1939.

Germany occupied the Sudetenland after Munich in the Fall of 1938. Since the population was over 90% German, Britain and France were willing to go along with this, despite Czech protests. When Germany occupied Bohemia and Moravia in the Spring of 1939 (you can hardly call it an invasion since not a single shot was fired), it made Britain and France realize that they had been "taken" by Hitler. Prior to this, all his demands, the Ruhr, Austria and the Sudetenland were German-speaking areas and could be "theoretically" justified as an attempt to bring all Germans together into one nation. But, there was no way that the occupation of the rest of Czechoslovakia could be interpreted as anything but pure agrression.

It is easy to criticize Britain and France for being so blind, but they had suffered several million casualties just a little over 20 years earlier and public opinion in neither country was all that willing to get into another war. If you read Churchill's biography, even after the German invasion of Poland, he was wary of how much the British wanted to fight. Fortunately for him, but unfortunately for the Brits, the German bombing of civilian targets solidified public opinion for all out war with Germany.

←

Russia occupied Eastern Poland a couple of weeks after Germany invaded. Then Russia and Germany actually partitioned/divided Poland. Britain did declared they were "at war with Germany" 2 or 3 days after Germany's invasion of Poland.

[untgirl04]

The correct answer is this:

The waring Europeans had virtually fought themselves to a standstill through attrition by 1917.  The Russians had their Revolution because of the war, the French were on the verge of another mass desertion by their Army, England had no more men to spare and the German people were on the verge of starvation.

A truce would have been signed with nothing gained by 4 years of attrition on both sides.

The Germans would have been free to go after the Bolsovics and pound those bast@@@'s in the ground thus eliminating communism.  With communism gone there would have been no Korean War, Vietnam....ie Cold War.....we could have all lived in peace.....until the Germans decided to kick the crap out of the Taliban.

What happened was that Wilson stuck his nose into something that Washington warned against, foriegn entanglements.  Well, we disruped the balance of power in Europe.  Germany paid dearly in reparations, fought off a minor communist takeover in Germany in the mid 1920's, distrusted the Bolsovics after that where they fought the commies again in Spain in the 30's then the Ruskies in the 40's. 

Because of Wilson:

1.  Hitler kills apx. 15 million or so Jews, Christians, Gypsies etc

2.  Stalin Kills apx. 30 million of his own people through starvation.

3.  Mao Tse-Tung kills apx. 100 million of his own people through starvation and war.

4.  Pol Pot (Cambodian dictator in the 70's) kills millions of his own people.

That is why I dont vote Democratic

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You're correct that Washington warned against foreign entaglements, but I disagree that Wilson was the start. Theodore Roosevelt, with his "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy brought America into the international arena. Panama Canal anyone? And he was a Republican...

[pollock]

[andrewrozell]

GO MEAN GREEN?!?!