Developer Plans 50,000 SF at UNT's Gate

[Zeke]

ok so I do not get banned I'll just say if these are the types of businesses they will place here then I am not a fan of the development. 

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I agree........upscale - yes. Fiesta or any other supermarket - NO.

[green_goblin]

fry street area needed a good gutting.  clean out the hippies, put some class in the area.

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You got that right!

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I think this is starting to happen..

At the corner of Ave H (N. Texas) and Hickory, there *WAS* a crappy apartment complex. It was torn down a few years ago and is now a parking lot. The College Inn is slated (or has it happened) to be torn down. There are tons of nice apartments on the other side of Bonnie Brae and the University shuttle actually goes out there. Now that area is surrounded by UNT properties and is patrolled by UNT police... slowly it will be taken over and those apartments will be torn down.

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---For sentimental reasons I hate to see the College Inn go. It opened in fall 1964 (all male) and I was one of the original 300 residents. The back portion opened in 1965. As for Fry street, I have no real opinion (some are dumps) but I like a lots of little coffee and snack shops around campus to create atmosphere especially if they are maintained fairly well. Have you ever been across the street from A&M where the Dixie Chicken and other bar/restaurants are? They look like some red-neck bar in the backwoods of East Texas. Not exactly new or neatly kept but lots of character and atmosphere.

[adman]

---For sentimental reasons I hate to see the College Inn go. It opened in fall 1964 (all male) and I was one of the original 300 residents. The back portion opened in 1965.  As for Fry street, I have no real opinion (some are dumps) but I like a lots of little coffee and snack shops around campus to create atmosphere especially if they are maintained fairly well.  Have you ever been across the street from A&M where the Dixie Chicken and other bar/restaurants are?  They look like some red-neck bar in the backwoods of East Texas.  Not exactly new or neatly kept but lots of character and atmosphere.

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The area at A&M you refer to is called Northgate. Two men, Don Gannor (sp) and Richard Benning were the two major players. Richard owned Dudley's Draw and Fitzwilley's. Don owned the Chicken, Dry Bean Saloon, Shadow Canyon. Just up the street a few doors from those establishments is the original Freebirds Burrito Store. Riprocks in Denton was inspired by Dudley's. A group of ultimate frisbee players from Denton used to play tourney's in CS and would drink shiner draft at Dudley's after the games. (At the time you could not get Shiner on draft in the Denton/Dallas market at that time.) The players thought a bar with shiner on draft with the feel of Dudley's would go over like gang busters. So the seed was planted and the rest, as they say, is history.

[Industrial Coog]

This part of town is part of the heart of Denton. To see it go would truly be sad. Please start getting involved and attending the City Council and Planning and Zonning meetings.

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The property is already zoned DC-G, which allows retail, restaurants, clubs and apartments. The new owner will probably need to file a replat in order to combine the various existing lots into one new lot, but if the plat meets the requirements of the Denton Development Code, P&Z is required to approve it per state law. Likewise with building inspections - if the development meets all the regulations, they can't legally keep it from being built.

In other words, there's really nothing that P&Z, council or city staff could do to stop this development.

[GBarksdale]

Bad news.

I have a nice upscale, trendy, Mockingbird Station type building in mind ... something that would give the area new life and show off the already good vibe.

Looking at the developers existing properties ... we could be in for a NIGHTMARE.

http://www.unitedequities.com/Properties_All.asp

Fiesta marts and strip center galore.

Oh my.

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Holy Crap!!!

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

Bad news.

I have a nice upscale, trendy, Mockingbird Station type building in mind ... something that would give the area new life and show off the already good vibe.

Looking at the developers existing properties ... we could be in for a NIGHTMARE.

http://www.unitedequities.com/Properties_All.asp

Fiesta marts and strip center galore.

Oh my.

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Whoa. That would most definitely NOT be what I would want over there. Doesn't make any sense. Isn't there a planning commission or some other part of city government that has to approve such developments? They need to hear from the citizens.

[KingDL1]

Whoa. That would most definitely NOT be what I would want over there. Doesn't make any sense. Isn't there a planning commission or some other part of city government that has to approve such developments? They need to hear from the citizens.

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That is not what they are doing, get a grip.

[SAGreenFan]

Typically -

Conservative = Business, Engineering etc.

Liberal = Art, Music

Who makes more money?  Who likes sports more? 

I just feel UNT has a rep for being too damn Liberal and Artistic – lets balance it out some.

I always felt as a UNT student you either were in a Fraternity or you were an art/music major – we need more of a “Middle Ground” students so the average kid can fit in.  You don’t have to be a wealthy Fraternity guy or a complete opposite nose ring, selling fake smoke on the corner Fry street guy. 

Just how I felt ’95-’00… so I rushed and remember the segregation I felt even when I hung with my artistic friends.

And yes, I like Southlake Town Center.

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*steps up on soap box* Art majors get a really bad rap. The fact is the VAST majority of Art majors dont go to school to become a starving artist. Most come to be trained in a highly specialized field or go into education. The Comm Design department has some of the most SUCCESSFUL alumni UNT has. And the studio departments crank out some of the best Corporate artsist, illustrators, game designers, printer makers, and jewelry designers in the country. Funny enough, my degree in Metalsmithing has a better chance getting me a successful job as a designer for James Avery and the like than the chances of getting a job in the highly oversaturated fields of Business, English, Psychology, Communications, and Computer Science or your more "conservative" majors. Money is not the issue. Mentality is. People wonder why art majors are "apathetic" maybe its because the rest of the univerity and its alumni think we're a bunch of slackers and wastes of space, when most of us spend 30-40+ hours outside of class just to keep up and some of the most dedicated students here. And I think you'll find the majority of Denton hippies, freaks and Fry street rats arent even UNT students, and they sure as hell aren't all art and music majors.*steps down from soap box*

That being out of the way. The sad thing here is that traditonal student haunts are being torn down for somthing supposedly better and probably a lot more expensive, and tradition is what UNT seems to be lacking, other than its tradtional apathy, but you find that accross the board in all school and all majors, not just in the liberal arts. Until UNT sheds the label of being a commuter school WITHIN ITS OWN STUDENT BODY nothing is going to get better, and tearing down some popular places to go on the weekends and after class isnt going to help matters. But the students that are here now are going to bitch a moan about it until they graduate, and the new ones coming in arent going to know the difference.

The same thing happened with the A&M bonfire. People fought and fought to keep it going after that whole incident, and by the time they made the decision to discontinue it, most of the student body had never even seen the bonfire while being an A&M student. It was the Alumni who were fighting for it the most, not the students.

I hate thinking of a place I have so many memories at like the Tomato and Chopsticks, and yes Treasure Isle (gotta love them comics) being torn down, but if it happens we're all just gonna have to live with it. Until then however, I'm going to do evrything I can to make sure that I'm not going to be visiting a Denton version Addison when I come to games after I graduate. As long as the developers take the area, the students, and the vibe of Fry Street into account I just may be able to stomach it.

[Stan R]

That is not what they are doing, get a grip.

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You know this based on what? Assumptions? Gut Feel?

[Guest JohnDenver]

You know this based on what? Assumptions? Gut Feel?

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I didn't post that link to show that is exactly what they are going to build. I am concerned that those properties are the TYPE of properties they are used to. For instance, if I wanted to have a "upscale" house, I certainly wouldn't use Fox and Jacobs. Not to say that I wouldn't or couldn't be happen with a F&J house, but that it didn't allign with what I hand in mind for an "upscale" builder.

I am envisioning a five story, nice to look at, complex with sidewalk retail all the way around it. I don't see that model in any of their listed properties.

[Stan R]

I didn't post that link to show that is exactly what they are going to build. I am concerned that those properties are the TYPE of properties they are used to. For instance, if I wanted to have a "upscale" house, I certainly wouldn't use Fox and Jacobs. Not to say that I wouldn't  or couldn't be happen with a F&J house, but that it didn't allign with what I hand in mind for an "upscale" builder.

I am envisioning a five story, nice to look at, complex with sidewalk retail all the way around it. I don't see that model in any of their listed properties.

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Good point. I'm concerned as well. Didn't know if someone had some insider information or had seen actual blueprints. If the city of Denton and UNT allow the kinds of strip centers that are pictured in those properties they should be ashamed of themselves. Honestly I'd support any kind of boycot or picketing that would come out of that development.

However, I don't think the City of Denton or UNT WOULD allow that sort of thing. Not that close to the campus. I'd guess they would require them to build something more appropriate for that area. But what do I know..

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Typically -

Conservative = Business, Engineering etc.

Liberal = Art, Music

Who makes more money?  Who likes sports more? 

I just feel UNT has a rep for being too damn Liberal and Artistic – lets balance it out some.

I always felt as a UNT student you either were in a Fraternity or you were an art/music major – we need more of a “Middle Ground” students so the average kid can fit in.  You don’t have to be a wealthy Fraternity guy or a complete opposite nose ring, selling fake smoke on the corner Fry street guy. 

Just how I felt ’95-’00… so I rushed and remember the segregation I felt even when I hung with my artistic friends.

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----All these drama/music types are really liberal?, such as ... R.Reagan, A.Swartzennegger, Charleton Heston, Pat Boone (NT) , etc.?? .. I also remember seeing somewhere that these music and drama types can actually make a lot of money, I would love to have the checks some of them receive for their movies or records. The difference there is the extremes of incomes unlike being an accountant who rarely make multi-millions each year. Doesn't Jack Nicholson, Spike Lee, and lot of others appear regularly at sports events.. Generalities often don't really fit. They are a diverse group of people with variety of interests and opinions also.

---Wow, times have changed... only 2% of NT guys belonged to a frat when I was there in the 60's (a lot of frats , about 4, had been kicked off for grades or bad conduct as in Animal House, LOL) I guess the other 98% of us were music/drama majors... funny, I don't remember those classes or my friends being in those either. I think we get that artsy image because those areas have been unusually successful and high profile not because of the amount of them. The business and education departments are far larger.

---I hope some of the small cafes around campus will remain. Most campuses have them which help make the colleges experience somewhat unique. Just because there are "kooks" around doesn't mean I have to associate with them. They will just find somewhere else anyway.

Edited May 15, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[bigrobdsp]

this development group is not going to sink millions of dollars into that area and build a Fiesta store. there going to put bars, reastraunts and probably a starbucks there because that is what will work. At least some of their money has gone to a research firm that has worked out exactly what kind of shops will really take off there, and that is who they will market the properties to. if they do lease the space out to other types of shops they will fail and a bar will move in. dont wory there will still be a place on that street to go and get a beer and a cheap burger. there always will be.

[GreenTiger_OriginalAcct]

Interesting angle on this story. Read this:

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...n.3c1fefd1.html

Note the part about newsroom being abuzz with info.

Then compare it to this. Last night, I was talking to someone who works for the city. He said they have been amazed that this has taken the Denton RC by storm. This purchase has been openly discussed in public meetings in Denton for last six months, including (according to this individual) the zoning and planning commission meetings, utility planning, and street and traffic planning. The problem is that the Denton RC never has anyone there to review the meetings or even to read over the info. Apparently, the company was making no attempt to hide their plans before the purchase and was actively making inquiries into construction issues.

[meangreen11]

I appreciate the lady's sadness over losing a restaurant that is relocating just a few miles away. I'm sorry but I just don't see her lamenting over the loss of a chinese buffet as a very compelling reason to quell the progress and growth that the new construction will bring the city the school and the entire region.

A lot of you complaining about this are hypocrites. You are acting just like the Denia folks that you were once criticizing.

Let get real, these guys aren't going to build a Fiesta Mart on that space. It will be upscale, high margin stuff which we desparately need down there. This is good news for anyone and everyone who cares about Denton and UNT.

[stebo]

The property is already zoned DC-G, which allows retail, restaurants, clubs and apartments. The new owner will probably need to file a replat in order to combine the various existing lots into one new lot, but if the plat meets the requirements of the Denton Development Code, P&Z is required to approve it per state law. Likewise with building inspections - if the development meets all the regulations, they can't legally keep it from being built.

In other words, there's really nothing that P&Z, council or city staff could do to stop this development.

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You are absolutely correct. The ONLY thing that they would have had a problem with was the old parking ordinance - which I personally spent about $30K on fixing when I owned the Tavern. Now - if they build into their current spaces, it will reduce the space overall - and SOME of those bars do rent spaces from over there. Not saying anyone will lose their CO - but if they try to sell, they will likely not be able to acquire one without a variance... and getting a variance in Denton is very difficult. I was granted one for the building that the hair place is in next to Tavern and then they backed out of the sale for me to expand. So I had to go the other way. You would think that the same exact variance board would grant me a second one to go the other way - but it was denied. I appealed it three times - finally to the city council. Denied. That is when I had to get the parking ordinance changed. And it was me and me alone in that fight; nobody else wanted it to change because it would allow more competition into that area. Well, all of their spite and venom that they spewed over those years put up walls between a lot of the owners. Most of Ave A bonded together - and the conglomerate became their own entity. They will be affected by this very little. The Cool Beans Annex will likely be released to them at a higher price; but trust me - they can afford it. They will need more parking but as long as they are working to release the Cool Beans Annex then that will be able to be worked out. TJ's and Tomato - they are going to have significant raises in rent. I am not sure if they can handle those increases or not. We will see. In the meantime, the parking that spaces like Muthers and Tavern rent on the Ave A side are year by year leases. If for some reason, Cool Beans decides that they want to keep all their parking in house and move it over to the lot that they own (the pay lot) - then they could be affected for future CO's; but like I said - I don't see the city pulling anyone's CO that has been in business before the change.

[KingDL1]

You know this based on what? Assumptions? Gut Feel?

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I am in the business, I saw the site plans months ago. I know the leasing company that is helping design the project.

There is not enough room or traffic to put in a fiesta or any other major grocery. Plus the simple price of the land negates the possibility of low rent tenants. The rent will have to meet the return on investment. That land is way over priced. That is why you will see a mixed use like retail & condos. Expect at ground level some bar & grills, restaurants, and shops. On the elevated levels look for condos or apartments.

At least that would make drinking too much on Fry street easier for some.

[KAjunRaider]

I appreciate the lady's sadness over losing a restaurant that is relocating just a few miles away.  I'm sorry but I just don't see her lamenting over the loss of a chinese buffet as a very compelling reason to quell the progress and growth that the new construction will bring the city the school and the entire region.

A lot of you complaining about this are hypocrites.  You are acting just like the Denia folks that you were once criticizing. 

Let get real, these guys aren't going to build a Fiesta Mart on that space.  It will be upscale, high margin stuff which we desparately need down there.  This is good news for anyone and everyone who cares about Denton and UNT.

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We have a similar, I think, area across from our football stadium. I think several of your folks have had some postgame victory parties over there. I wish they'd bulldoze the entire thing and put in something nice.

Anyone ever been to U. of Arizona and seen the nice shops and trendy restaurants they have bordering their campus?

We too, need a reason for students to stay on campus and not head to Nashville. Our city had doubled in size in the last 15 years or so, and we still have the same old dive bars near the campus.

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

I am in the business, I saw the site plans months ago. I know the leasing company that is helping design the project.

There is not enough room or traffic to put in a fiesta or any other major grocery. Plus the simple price of the land negates the possibility of low rent tenants. The rent will have to meet the return on investment. That land is way over priced. That is why you will see a mixed use like retail & condos. Expect at ground level some bar & grills, restaurants, and shops. On the elevated levels look for condos or apartments.

At least that would make drinking too much on Fry street easier for some.

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Most all the properties shown at the site though did not fit that model. It was all Fiestas and Walgreens. I agree that would not make sense there, but that appears to be where their experience is. Anyway, having seen the plans, can you say if there is anything particularly encouraging in them?

[LongJim]

There is not enough room or traffic to put in a fiesta or any other major grocery.  Expect at ground level some bar & grills, restaurants, and shops. On the elevated levels look for condos or apartments.

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KingDL is right. I spent a lot of time in the retail construction arena, and that area is not big enough, or traveled enough to put something the size of a supermarket in, plus the location is not optimum for that. I believe that the type of tenants will be pretty close to what's there now, but in a different form, obviously.

[mad dog]

The property is already zoned DC-G, which allows retail, restaurants, clubs and apartments. The new owner will probably need to file a replat in order to combine the various existing lots into one new lot, but if the plat meets the requirements of the Denton Development Code, P&Z is required to approve it per state law. Likewise with building inspections - if the development meets all the regulations, they can't legally keep it from being built.

In other words, there's really nothing that P&Z, council or city staff could do to stop this development.

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It is my understanding of how P&Z commisions work that they can change the restrictions if they feel necessary. Now, council might not agree with them, but while P&Z can't outright DENY someone, they CAN change the requirements.

Do you work for a city government?

[Baby Arm!]

It is my understanding of how P&Z commisions work that they can change the restrictions if they feel necessary.  Now, council might not agree with them, but while P&Z can't outright DENY someone, they CAN change the requirements.

Do you work for a city government?

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I seem to remember something similar happening in Dallas and it ended up costing the city millions. As I remember it Cinemark wanted to build a new theater at the site of an old Kmart building at Forest and Inwood. Cinemark expected a the city to rubber stamp it since the planned development was completely in accordance with the current zoning. However the neighborhood opposed it and the P&Z bowed to the neighborhood pressure and denied approval, the city council backed the P&Z on appeal (Despite the city attorney advising them they didn't have a legal leg to stand on). Cinemark decides to build at Webb Chapel& LBJ but takes the city to court over the P&Z denial and of course wins a multi-million judgement against the city.

Somehow I don't think Denton has the deep pockets to foot the bill to keep a group of crummy old buildings around.

[KingDL1]

Most all the properties shown at the site though did not fit that model. It was all Fiestas and Walgreens. I agree that would not make sense there, but that appears to be where their experience is. Anyway, having seen the plans, can you say if there is anything particularly encouraging in them?

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The guys doing the retail leasing are from Dallas, we work with the fairly often. In my experience the retail leasing team has the most influence over a project like this. You know this project is still young, the plans will change 20-30 times depending who they get to prelease. But what I saw was very nice, and if they are able to obtain any of the other properties on that block it will be nicer. If I remember right they have set it up as mixed use. Shop/restaurant space anchored with a Drug store. And some multifamily on upper levels and in the back.

If I were the developers I would try to get UNT and the City behind me and try to eminent domain the rest of their asses. They are all willing to sell but they all think their property is worth a million bucks.

Hell, I don't know how most those places pass health inspections. If everyone got on board by selling, selling for a price and being a part owner, or if the University and the City got together they could make a show piece for the area. I would envision a small sixth street or deep elm with new buildings. Which would create more sales tax and property tax for the City and a great selling point for new students, hint.. hint.. recruits.

[NTEagle08]

thought I would pass this on to people worried about the new Fry Street being a run down strip center. Hermes Architects has been hired as the company to help design the new Fry Street, they have a portfolio up of previous work.

http://www.hermesarchitects.com/homepage.html