Texans made HUGE mistake

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I think that the Texan's management is clearly mentally ill. There is NO WAY that you pass up on Bush. Building a defense around one player is a lot more difficult than it is on offense. They also really screwed things up public relations wise. The "take it all the way" possibilities involved when Bush touches the ball 30 times per game are incredible. Great hands, great feet, great football player. HUGE mistake! BTW, if Bush is too "small" , then so are 75+% of the great modern era running backs. Five eleven 200-210 is the prototype great NFL running back, and don't forget the legitimate 4.3 speed. My favorite senior won't be drafted because his 40 performance for the scouts was not exactly steller, but then again Emmit Smith wasn't exactly a sprinter either. Hope PC gets a good FA shot with the Texans. They definitely need a darkhorse to step up after this debacle.

←

History of drafting RBs at #1... all of them since 1969:

How did Buffalo do after drafting OJ (SC) #1 in 1969... He was very good but the team did poor.

How did Tampa Bay do after drafting Bo Jackson #1 -1986..poor , they traded him.

How did Cinn do after drafted Ki-Jana Carter i#1 in 1995...poor, plus he was terrible once he got paid.

How did New Orleans do with #1 George Rodgers in 1981... still poor.

How about Billy Sims by Detroit in 1980.... he was good but his team got very little better.

How about Earl Campbell in 1978.... pretty good and one game short of the Super Bowl but this boy was so big and strong that he did not need good blocking, he just ran over people, besides the rest of the team got better with a good passing game and better defense.

Then there is Ricky Bell (SC) was was taken #1 in 1977 by Tampa Bay. .. nothing good happened there either.

Except Big Earl Campbell none of these #1 STAR running back draft picks paid off in the NFL with lots of team wins. Teams should always take the best available player for a postion that have an apparent need. Houston had the 31st defense last year, with few sacks and even less recovered turnovers. Carr and D.Davis aren't the NFL's best but they aren't 31st either. They needed defense and offensive line help in the worst way. Bush, Young, or Leinart would not have turned anything around in terms of a lot of additional wins. The York Giants became a contender when Laurence Taylor appeared and disrupted the other teams offenses. NYG did not have an NFL best offense nor did the Ravens ( with Ray Lewis) when they won either. Bradshaw #1, couldn't win until the Steel Curtain defense with Joe Green (NT) appeared.

---Had Houston not taken Mario Williams at #1, then New Orleans at #2 was expected to take him by most lists projected. People love high-profile offensive players but it takes a lot of them to succeed, such as the Rams had and Indy has (but hasn't made the Super Bowl). Who was Pittsburg's great running back this year???..old Bettis?? New England has been winning without a top name RB most of those Super Bowls also. Corey Dillon was there for only one of them. The other ones they had Antoine Smith and Kevin Faulk, not exactly HOF candidates.

Edited May 1, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Eagle1855]

the biggest mistake the Texans made this weekend was letting VY go to a division rival. they have just given themselves at least 2 losses per year for the next 10-12 years. Mario Williams is a fine DE. he will never touch Young.

←

wrong.

If you think VY will run around people in the NFL like he did in college, you are mistaken. There a tons of LB's in the NFL that are just as fast or faster than he. No doubt he is elusive and one of the most (if not the most) prolific college players. But him going to the titans in no way ensures they will win the rest of their games until forever. that is absurd. And the Texans couldnt have done anything to prevent that either way.

I think Carr will be fine with new schemes and more help on the O-line (both of which they addressed in the off season). But, time will tell.

And Mario Williams is a great addition. He will make an instant impact. The texans wanted to get better defensively, which is important when you are in a division with the Colts.

[bigrobdsp]

wrong.

If you think VY will run around people in the NFL like he did in college, you are mistaken. There a tons of LB's in the NFL that are just as fast or faster than he. No doubt he is elusive and one of the most (if not the most) prolific college players. But him going to the titans in no way ensures they will win the rest of their games until forever. that is absurd. And the Texans couldnt have done anything to prevent that either way.

I think Carr will be fine with new schemes and more help on the O-line (both of which they addressed in the off season). But, time will tell.

And Mario Williams is a great addition. He will make an instant impact. The texans wanted to get better defensively, which is important when you are in a division with the Colts.

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they said the same things about him when he went from high school to college. I forget, how did that work out? I hate combine numbers. I like players who dont loose. Mario Williams had an average college career (not quite as good as Rodriqe Wright who went in round 7 to the miami dolphins) and he had another first round DE on the other side making sure that one of them was always singled up. NC State had 3 DL taken in the first 2 rounds and they averaged 24 points against last year. If they were really that good people wouldnt have scored on them. And if VY was really that good he would have lead the nation in Passing effeciency, yards per game, and won a national title agaist one of history's best football teams... oh wait...

[Eagle1855]

they said the same things about him when he went from high school to college. I forget, how did that work out? I hate combine numbers. I like players who dont loose. Mario Williams had an average college career (not quite as good as Rodriqe Wright who went in round 7 to the miami dolphins) and he had another first round DE on the other side making sure that one of them was always singled up. NC State had 3 DL taken in the first 2 rounds and they averaged 24 points against last year. If they were really that good people wouldnt have scored on them. And if VY was really that good he would have lead the nation in Passing effeciency, yards per game, and won a national title agaist one of history's best football teams... oh wait...

←

personally, i also like players who dont "lose".

And no, they didnt say that about him when he came out of HS. He was heralded as one of the best QB prospects in the country.

so you say you dont care about numbers, then you "pluck" stats that fit your argument. interesting move. There is more to a defense than the D-line. There is more to VY's passing stats than just the completions. the kinds of throws, the kinds of reads, etc have to be taken into account as well. but you knew that already, as you are apparently an expert on Texas football with a masters degree in Vinceology.

I think VY is a great player, and I loved watching him play in college. I also think he will be a fine NFL QB. I just dont think he came here to save us from our sins. And I dont think adding VY to an NFL team ensures victory, as you so boldy predicted over the Texans for the next 12 years.

[LongJim]

I just dont think he came here to save us from our sins.

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What??? WHO TOLD YOU THIS??!? BLASPHEMER!!! HERETIC!!!

Edited May 1, 2006 by LongJim

[LongJim]

I have to say that I like Houston's pick, too. Bush is a great player, but I don't think he touches the ball 30 times a game, and I don't think he's going to be the difference maker everyone projects him to be.

He'll get his yards, and scores, but I don't think he's a player that takes an NFL team to the "next level".

[bigrobdsp]

personally, i also like players who dont "lose".

And no, they didnt say that about him when he came out of HS. He was heralded as one of the best QB prospects in the country.

←

yes they did. they said they would have to change his throwing motion and stop him from leaving the pocket. rivals projected him turning into a wide reciever.

so you say you dont care about numbers, then you "pluck" stats that fit your argument. interesting move. There is more to a defense than the D-line. There is more to VY's passing stats than just the completions. the kinds of throws, the kinds of reads, etc have to be taken into account as well. but you knew that already, as you are apparently an expert on Texas football with a masters degree in Vinceology.

←

I didnt pluck a damn thing. those numbers are legit. The stats that I was saying I dont care about are arbitrary numbers like 40 and shuttle times that dont really translate to football very well. On the field nubers like those can be inflated but they tell a story. Combine numbers dont tell me anything.

I know alot about Vince's recruiting b/c I happened to be around Texas football an awful lot at the time he was being recruited.

I think VY is a great player, and I loved watching him play in college. I also think he will be a fine NFL QB. I just dont think he came here to save us from our sins. And I dont think adding VY to an NFL team ensures victory, as you so boldy predicted over the Texans for the next 12 years.

←

is it really that hard to predict victory over the Texans for the forseable future?

Edited May 1, 2006 by bigrobdsp

[Eagle1855]

yes they did. they said they would have to change his throwing motion and stop him from leaving the pocket. rivals projected him turning into a wide reciever.

No, he was still the top rated prospect...

#1 dual threat QUARTERBACK, #1 overall

I didnt pluck a damn thing. those numbers are legit.  The stats that I was saying I dont care about are arbitrary numbers like 40 and shuttle times that dont really translate to football very well. On the field nubers like those can be inflated but they tell a story. Combine numbers dont tell me anything.

I agree with you about the combine thing. I think its overrated, and I have my reservations about WIlliams. But if he turns out to be the monster he is projected, it will help the Texans more than Bush could have.

is it really that hard to predict victory over the Texans for the forseable future?

No.

But hopefully that will change in the next 2 years

[bigrobdsp]

No, he was still the top rated prospect...

#1 dual threat QUARTERBACK, #1 overall

I agree with you about the combine thing. I think its overrated, and I have my reservations about WIlliams. But if he turns out to be the monster he is projected, it will help the Texans more than Bush could have.

No.

But hopefully that will change in the next 2 years 

←

he was the top rated prospect at dual threat QB that year, but many people (including some rivals aritcles that I conveintly cant find right now) projected him to line up as a WR. Many anylists projected that even up until his rosebowl performance against Michigan two years ago.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=41312

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...SPGF7GG5AB1.DTL

http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stories/120705aag.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=ncf&id=2250699

I dont think williams will turn into any sort of monster. that is the point of my argument. I think he will be a standard DE. I understand that if he is great he will be a solid pick, I just dont think he will be any good. you will also notice that nowhere did I say that Bush was the right pick for Houston. the right pick was to trade down, but if they were going to botch that and take the pick the best thing to do for them would have been to take Vince and at least put some butts in seats.

now stop arguing with me I have to do some work and I am incapable of letting an argument die open ended.

Edited May 1, 2006 by bigrobdsp

[Eagle1855]

I dont think williams will turn into any sort of monster. that is the point of my argument. I think he will be a standard DE. I understand that if he is great he will be a solid pick, I just dont think he will be any good.

well Im gonna say that hope you are wrong, and that the hundreds of analysts that took an in depth look at Williams, his game film, etc... are right. Time will tell, so its a useless argument at this point because neither of us know what kind of player he will end up being. If he turns out to be a stud, its a great pick for the Texans.

you will also notice that nowhere did I say that Bush was the right pick for Houston. the right pick was to trade down, but if they were going to botch that and take the pick the best thing to do for them would have been to take Vince and at least put some butts in seats.

nobody wanted to trade up. They tried to do that, but everyone was pretty content sitting where they were. had they had that option, they probably would have explored it, but they did not (or so they say, and thats all I have to go on). This draft had about 6-7 elite players that many teams would have been content with any of them falling their way.

Vince would have sold a ridiculous amount of merchandise. It would have sold out games. thats a fact. It would have been a great story. But if it didnt work out, 3 years from now the honeymoon would be over. My point is, people want to win. Kubiak thinks Carr is the guy, and that he hasnt been coached well or had a good enough supporting cast. I hope he's right. If nothing else, the Texans showed balls (or stupidity, only time will tell here as well).

now stop arguing with me I have to do some work and I am incapable of letting an argument die open ended.

I cant. I have to have the last word.

[bigrobdsp]

I cant. I have to have the last word. 

←

the end

Edited May 1, 2006 by bigrobdsp

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---As I stated the history of #1 RB picks or even Heisman winning RBs turning around a teams win/loss situation has been poor. The last NO Heisman winner and first Rd (not first) pick was Ricky Williams.... NO got very little better. Some of these guys have gone on to Hall of Fame careers (O.J. Simpson) but their team did not get much better which is the goal of drafts anyway.

---The one stat that determines and losses the most in the NFL is turnovers (for or against). A good offensive line will give Carr time to throw and cut down interceptions and his sacks and fumbles. .....on the other side a very good defensive lineman will can cause turnovers by hurrying the QB and making the QB fumble or throw interceptions more when hit or sacked.

---Total amount of yards rushed is not even close to determining games as much as turnovers. Houston on defense was better than San Fran and no one else last year. Even your rushing yards should improve if you can keep the ball way from the other team more.

[foutsrouts]

Noticed that the SBC was the only 1A conference with no player drafted, but was wondering if anyone noticed how many 1AA conferences had no one drafted either. Not very many based on the spot in the DMN. Kind of a sad statement about the SBC when the Southland and SWAC had two each and the Lone Star had one.

[Got5onIt]

Noticed that the SBC was the only 1A conference with no player drafted, but was wondering if anyone noticed how many 1AA conferences had no one drafted either. Not very many based on the spot in the DMN. Kind of a sad statement about the SBC when the Southland and SWAC had two each and the Lone Star had one.

←

I was thinking the same thing Saturday when I heard the sports station announce the Cowboys 7th round pick out of Weber St.

[Got5onIt]

I heard his interview, he wasn't clear about where he went but said he did not qualify and transferred to Weber once he became eligible. I was under the impression, his twin brother, who was drafted in the 3rd, played all 4 years at Weber.

[Coach]

He played two seasons at Weber State. He signed with them in 2002, but did not play that year. He redshirted in 2003 and lettered in 2004 and 2005.

[eleazar]

---As I stated the history of #1 RB picks or even Heisman winning RBs turning around a teams win/loss situation has been poor.  The last NO Heisman winner and first Rd  (not first) pick was Ricky Williams.... NO got very little better.  Some of these guys have gone on to Hall of Fame careers  (O.J. Simpson) but their team did not get much better which is the goal of drafts anyway.

---The one stat that determines and losses the most in the NFL is turnovers (for or against).  A good offensive line will give Carr time to throw and cut down interceptions and his sacks and fumbles. .....on the other side a very good defensive lineman will can cause turnovers by hurrying the QB and making the QB fumble or throw interceptions more when hit or sacked.

---Total amount of yards rushed is not even close to determining games as much as turnovers. Houston on defense was better than San Fran and no one else last year. Even your rushing yards should improve if you can keep the ball way from the other team more.

←

Being from NOLA and a Saints fan, I was ecstatic that Bush fell to the Saints. Your argument regarding Ricky Williams and the Saints getting better is off because the Saints had to give up so many picks to get him that it destroyed any chance of getting better with other picks.

The problem that I have with M. Williams is that he disappeared during all of his big games. Sure, he has all of the measurable you want in an athlete like size, speed, and strength, but I really didn't like that in actual "big-ish" games, he wasn't there.

Against Virginia tech 1 solo tackle 2 assists.. no sacks..

Florida state this year one tackle half a sack

Boston college 4 tackles no sacks

eastern kentucky 1 tackle no sacks

Georgia Tech 2 tackles no sacks

Clemson 1 tackle 3 asst no sack

He wasn't even listed as a top 10 DE during preseason, his teammate was

http://cruzer1.blogspot.com/2005/09/top-de...-nfl-draft.html

It was only after the combine that you see him shoot up through the ranks. Now I don't profess to have game tapes on him or to be an NFL scout and he may turn out to be another Peppers, but with that many question marks I have my doubts that he is going to be a game breaker. I guess we'll see.

[foutsrouts]

Being from NOLA and a Saints fan, I was ecstatic that Bush fell to the Saints.  Your argument regarding Ricky Williams and the Saints getting better is off because the Saints had to give up so many picks to get him that it destroyed any chance of getting better with other picks.

The problem that I have with M. Williams is that he disappeared during all of his big games.  Sure, he has all of the measurable you want in an athlete like size, speed, and strength, but I really didn't like that in actual "big-ish" games, he wasn't there.

Against Virginia tech 1 solo tackle 2 assists.. no sacks..

Florida state this year one tackle half a sack

Boston college 4 tackles no sacks

eastern kentucky 1 tackle no sacks

Georgia Tech 2 tackles no sacks

Clemson 1 tackle 3 asst no sack

He wasn't even listed as a top 10 DE during preseason, his teammate was

http://cruzer1.blogspot.com/2005/09/top-de...-nfl-draft.html

It was only after the combine that you see him shoot up through the ranks.  Now I don't profess to have game tapes on him or to be an NFL scout and he may turn out to be another Peppers, but with that many question marks I have my doubts that he is going to be a game breaker.  I guess we'll see.

←

I'll repeat my previous comment on the Texan's management. They are clearly mentally ill! This is coming from a native Houstonian who grew up an Oiler and a Cowboys fan. I haven't gotten into the Texan's yet, and because of this blunder, I doubt that I will anytime soon. Shear stupidity from any viewpoint.

[the green rokemi]

Being from NOLA and a Saints fan, I was ecstatic that Bush fell to the Saints.  Your argument regarding Ricky Williams and the Saints getting better is off because the Saints had to give up so many picks to get him that it destroyed any chance of getting better with other picks.

The problem that I have with M. Williams is that he disappeared during all of his big games.  Sure, he has all of the measurable you want in an athlete like size, speed, and strength, but I really didn't like that in actual "big-ish" games, he wasn't there.

Against Virginia tech 1 solo tackle 2 assists.. no sacks..

Florida state this year one tackle half a sack

Boston college 4 tackles no sacks

eastern kentucky 1 tackle no sacks

Georgia Tech 2 tackles no sacks

Clemson 1 tackle 3 asst no sack

He wasn't even listed as a top 10 DE during preseason, his teammate was

http://cruzer1.blogspot.com/2005/09/top-de...-nfl-draft.html

It was only after the combine that you see him shoot up through the ranks.  Now I don't profess to have game tapes on him or to be an NFL scout and he may turn out to be another Peppers, but with that many question marks I have my doubts that he is going to be a game breaker.  I guess we'll see.

←

Couldn't I use the same argument for Bush? Maybe I am wrong, but how did Bush do against the stronger teams? Didn't most of his yards come as a third down back and as a returner?

[bigrobdsp]

Couldn't I use the same argument for Bush? Maybe I am wrong, but how did Bush do against the stronger teams?  Didn't most of his yards come as a third down back and as a returner?

←

I know someone who really showed up in the biggest games.

[TIgreen01]

Couldn't I use the same argument for Bush? Maybe I am wrong, but how did Bush do against the stronger teams?  Didn't most of his yards come as a third down back and as a returner?

←

No, you could not.

Bush vs:

#24 Oregon

20 car, 122 yd, 1 td

#14 Ariz St

17 car, 158 yd, 2 td

#9 ND

15 car, 160 yd, 3 td

#16 Fresno St

23 car, 294 yd, 2 td

#11 UCLA

24 car, 260 yd, 2 td

#1 Texas

13 car, 82 yd, 1 td

The only "big" game he didn't break 100 yards was against UT...but he still managed a TD and 82 yards...though he didn't take over that game like he did most of the others listed here.

I have to agree with those who think that Mario Williams was a bad pick. Picking a DE at #1 isn't necessarily a bad pick...but picking one who nobody ever heard of before the combine is.

Edited May 2, 2006 by TIgreen01

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Defensive players rarely get much media attention...unless they run back a winning TD or something of that nature. The media and fans (except local fans) rarely know about anyone other than RBs, QBs and sometimes WRs.. Ever hear of Demarcus Ware (picked #11) before he was drafted??? If you did it was because NT was playing Troy and no other reason.

---Only time will tell.. The draft is nothing but an educated guess of who will be good. Ryan Leaf was picked #2? and was awful and K.Warner was not even picked and became MVP. The NFL is very different than college especially the size, the speed, and oftentimes instincts and intelligence matter more at many positions.

--- My point is that no RB ( see OJ, Hall of Famer, best RB of his era) has ever turned a team around greatly, sometimes QBs and defensive players (L.Taylor) do have a huge impact....Earl Campbell may be the exception... that boy had speed, strength, and size, and just ran over people, he did not need decent blocking. I have never seen another player like him.

--I don't care how good an RB is if he doesn't have a good offense line he can't do a lot .....ask Cobb and Jamario about last year compared to their previous years. Houston obviously needed to upgrade their line.... I think they did D.Davis may have a much better year as will Carr if they have.

Houston's problem is not their RB and Bush was not "Moses" and was not going to take them to the promised land.

__________________

To the Bush lovers... if you play fantasy football... we are expecting you to take Bush in the first round or two...!!!

Edited May 2, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[emmitt01]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This "running backs don't turn around teams" argument is a flawed one until you can answer two very important things.

1)How is LT a valid example of a defensive player "turning around" a team? Unless you pretend that Pepper Johnson and the other pro-bowlers on that defense didn't make it easier for LT to be LT then you can't make this assertion. Was LT a monster and probably the best to ever play his position? Probably. Would he have been that same playing with the Tampa Bay Bucs back then? Uhhhh, no...he would have been the dominant guy on a losing team. It's EXACTLY like the argument you make about how running backs can't be game changers without a supporting cast around them. So I'll ask again, where is the Pepper Johnson on the Houston Texans roster? Where is the rest of a solid defense?

2)What is a running backs job? Isn't it to take the ball and make yards? I'm pretty sure Bo Jackson, Earl Campbell, Ricky Williams, et al did exactly that. And Reggie Bush will do the same. To say that Bush wasn't the right pick because they wouldn't have been instantly better is absurd. Was Warren Moon a bad pick? No super bowl rings. Was Dan Marino a bad pick? No rings either. How bout Jerry Rice? I'm pretty sure Joe Montana and Roger Craig helped. No one player can make/break a whole offense or defense, but here is the only important question to ponder. If they had drafted Reggie Bush would they have drafted THE BEST PLAYER THEY AVAILABLE TO THEM AND THE BEST PLAYER AT HIS POSITION? Yes resoundingly on both counts.

[TIgreen01]

---Defensive players rarely get much media attention...unless they run back a winning TD or something of that nature.  The media and fans  (except  local fans) rarely know about anyone other than RBs, QBs and sometimes WRs.. Ever hear of Demarcus Ware  (picked #11) before he was drafted???  If you did it was because NT was playing Troy and no other reason. 

←

...or anyone who followed the Sun Belt as D. Ware was the Preseason Defensive POY. Then Troy had the Mizzou upset on ESPN...he was out there plenty. How about Julius Peppers (who everyone seems to compare M. Williams to)?...I damn sure knew who he was in college or even Jevon Kearse. There ARE defensive players every year that people know. Mario Williams was NOT one of them.

--I don't care how good an RB is if he doesn't have a good offense line he can't do a lot .....ask Cobb and Jamario about last year compared to their previous years.  Houston obviously needed to upgrade their line.... I think they did  D.Davis may have a much better year as will Carr if they have.

Houston's problem is not their RB and Bush was not "Moses" and was not going to take them to the promised land.

←

True...Houston has an absolutely pitiful oline...but they addressed that in the 3rd round...will any of them pay off? Who knows, but having Bush sure wouldn't have hurt them any.

To the Bush lovers... if you play fantasy football... we are expecting you to take Bush in the first round or two...!!!

←

provided he's not holding out?? I have no problem with Houston not drafting Bush...IF they thought they couldn't sign him or could get more value for the pick by trading it away. Under no circumstances should any team make as big a reach on a DE (who underachieved in college) as Houston did when you have Bush and Young at the top of the draft, arguably the 2 best college players (who produced in a big way) in the last 20 years...that also have great pro potential.

Edited May 2, 2006 by TIgreen01

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Mr. TI-01 Gato:

---The best player in college in the past 20 years..!!. Holy Moly!!! That is since you were 8 and still playing in the dirt. I seem to remember a Peyton Manning that was being mentioned from the fr/soph year on and made the Heisman final 5 twice (and robbed in my opinion). Even Marshall Faulk at the San Diego St. was making big news in college and both of those guys really turned out well in the NFL. I am sure there have many more that have been the "player of lifetime" several times.

I like the D.Ware comment...."if you followed SunBelt football".... if you didn't you had no clue who he is was.

Ahhh--- you have hold-out concerns about Bush... so did Houston... the Cedric Benson and Rivers hold-outs really turned out well for their teams and them as well.

I am making a note of your draft comment.... Bush rd 2 or 1, .... You still going to be using the Gato name this year????

Edited May 2, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66