Is The Direction of MG Football Today Better

[PlummMeanGreen]

THURSDAY NIGHT ADDENDUMS:

Of course, whatever era some attended UNT may sway a few votes toward their respective eras and because of all the non-UNT (or basically non-interested in our school) visitor/lurker types who vote this could never be considered a scientifically accurate poll as would be the case for any other polls we've posted on GMG.com in year's past.......BUT in your heart of hearts, is UNT football closer to being a Top 25 program today than we have been in past decades?

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<>*<> We all know that in 1968 NORTH TEXAS had a football team who played the socks (and actually should have won the game) off the school who would play the 1969 NCAA football season in what (then) national sportswriters called "the Game of the Century." Of course, that was Darrell K. Royal's UT Longhorns and Frank Broyles Arkansas Razorbacks which produced an NCAA National Champion only 1 year after our near win over ARKANSAS.

Still amazing to many of us was how Mean Green football was playing at such high levels in the late 1960's. Why UNT football seems to most always retreat after reaching such levels or heights is a mystery to many of us who've been around all this for awhile. This is a tradition many of us would (obviously) like to see disappear and to be a thing of the past once MEAN GREEN football eventually gets back to a Top 25 quality of NCAA D1-A football.

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If any of you who bothered to vote in this poll answered "yes" please offer some viable reasons for your response; if any of you answer "no" please explain. Also, please do offer up more ideas of things we could possibly do to get closer to being a Top 25 football program in Denton (and FWIW, pleeeezzzzzzz, this part doesn't have to focus on our present athletic personnel). We've all sorta' covered that subject in past months I'd think most would agree and like the true Southern (Northern/Western/Midwestern) Gents (or ladies) we all are, I think we all have found that we can kindly agree to disagree from time to time without the shedding of blood from within the family.

Also, most on this forum by now know where each stands on the personnel part of this equation up in Denton, Texas, America, as it is and I'm sure nothing will change anyone's minds on that other than some winnning football seasons that catapult MEAN GREEN football to some NEW ORLEANS BOWL wins........... AND................the position any Sun Belt Conference football champion should be no matter which school represents the league and that would be for said SBC football champion being in the Top 25. We are fartin' in the NCAA D1-A wind until all of the SBC raises its level of standards, recruiting and facilties. After all, isn't the SBC football champion "ALWAYS" being ranked in the Top 25 about the only way that the Sun Belt Conference will start turning some eyes (regionally & nationally) and getting some much-needed positive recognition? Isn't that a prime reason the MAC has received much more respect of late? How long ago was it that some on this board even thought the SBC was ahead of that league?

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Addendum: I suppose those who were actually around to experience (firsthand) some of the past decades of NORTH TEXAS MEAN GREEN football might have a different insight or perspective in their voting than those who were still merely gleams in their father's eyes or those who were not on the UNT payroll during those past decades as well.

Interesting results thus far as of April 20, ie, Thursday AM, but (again) would like to see more posts or reasons for those answering "yes" as to why they think we are closer to being a Top 25 program today than yester-year while enlightening those who voted otherwise.

Edited April 21, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[Green Grenade II]

Of course, the eras some attended UNT may sway a few votes toward their respected eras, but in your heart of hearts, is UNT football closer to being a Top 25 program today than we have been in past decades?

If you don't think we are closer to Top 25, just what do we need to do in order to get in that upper echelon of NCAA D1-A that even a few MAC schools have attained in recent years?  Even beyond personel (whether you think that needs to be changed or not) what else does UNT need to do to become a regular in Top 25 polls? 

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Coach Dickey isn't going anywhere soon, so we better fall back in love with his style of coaching and hope for a winning season. We will be more experienced, and while we played SunBelt conference foes close...that's another talk show.

I don't even want to think about out-of-conference games. could be dismal.

[meangreen11]

Coach Dickey isn't going anywhere soon, so we better fall back in love with his style of coaching and hope for a winning season. We will be more experienced, and while we played SunBelt conference foes close...that's another talk show.

I don't even want to think about out-of-conference games. could be dismal.

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I agree with Green Grenade, Dickey will be our coach for several more years in the least possibly another couple of decades if he keeps winning. Our destiny as a top 25 program is directly tied to Dickey in that regard.

I think we had one bad year and we were due for a slip up. They will right the ship this year and beat SMU.

[LoveMG]

Dickey will be our coach for several more years in the least possibly another couple of decades if he keeps winning.  Our destiny as a top 25 program is directly tied to Dickey in that regard. 

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worse thing that could happen

[eulesseagle]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt05.htm

This is where we are now!!

Check out #161.....North Texas

[bigrobdsp]

I agree with Green Grenade,

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that is the least intelligent thing I have ever read on this website.

[Eagle1855]

no matter what the Negative Ned's say, we are still better off than we were 5, 10, 15 years ago. How many times before that did we have a freshman break the 200 yard game rushing record? back to back rushing champs? 4 straight conference titles? how about a bowl win? People notice these things.

Like it or not, its better now than its been since maybe Hayden Fry. Not comparing DD to HF, but the program as a whole has improved. Im not certain DD is the guy to push us into top 25 territory, but we were sniffing the top 25 in 2003 (got a few votes) and probably would have been there with a bowl win over memphis.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Tough question... but I will say yes.... Now the reasons.

---In the Fry era and the Joe Green era and decades before then we had a severe problem that no longer exists........ the SWC. People in Texas and area only paid attention to teams in the SWC and the rest of the colleges were considered "minor League". SMU hated (feared?) us in that they did not want us competing with them for metroplex attention and did everything possible to "kick sand into our faces". We have become the 1000-lb gorrila of the area that can no longer be ignored and they have really shunk in stature. Even when Texas Western (UTEP) won the national championship in basketball and many NCAA national track championships, they were not accepted by Texas that well...... after all they did not play other Texas teams and were outsiders.

---Now there are many different conferences represented inside the state although the Big-XII gets a lot of the attention. It is now easier to get attention to get media attention without being in "THE" conference because they are so many of use not in the THE conference.

---We are now a very large university with only A&M and Texas being larger. Even the rest of the Big-XII teams are smaller. We have a lot more alums (and family of alums) and lot more people know about us than ever before. This is very noticable if you live outside of the metroplex area. We were often then viewed as a "teacher school" and not a diverse university.... we are now. Don't under-estimate having very successful people in DIVERSE fields (such as Dr. Phil, Norah Jones, Larry McMurtry, etc.) help the image and repetation of North Texas. Increased attention in any field helps the other areas including athletics as well.

---We have played in a few bowl games... we didn't for 40 years. It may not be a BIG bowl game but it is a bowl game and people notice them.

---When I was at NT we played in the toughest basketball conference in America and few Texans knew it. UCLA was the best team but the MVC was the toughest conference.. The ACC, SWC, and SEC was still segregated and was not even close to MVC with Cinn, Louisville, Tulsa, Memphis, Bradley,Drake, etc. We got litttle attention in Texas ..again because we were not SWC.

---At one time it was tough to even get a game scheduled against what was then SWC teams, now it is easier. Then there was about zero chance of playing a top rated team and appearing on TV. lately we have played OU and UT, both defending national champions on opening weeks of the season. We may may get "killed" but they are scheduling us unlike before.

---Our biggest need now is to win some big high profile games.... and it would help if some other SunBelt teams could also....

---We should be able to recruit better than the past because the SWC is dead but a couple of oddities occur there. We got a lot good athletes in the 50's and 60's. because blacks had fewer other options (SWC was all white). Later Fry was rather unique in that he seemed to find good athletes that had been unnoticed and he was able to run an unusually diverse offense (for the time) that really exploited the talent that he had. He was a great motivator as well and got the most out of what he had even if he had less natural talent than his opponents. He also had a very likable personally and was able to recruit rather well as well as coach.

Edited April 19, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[LongJim]

...the program as a whole has improved. Im not certain DD is the guy to push us into top 25 territory, but we were sniffing the top 25 in 2003 (got a few votes) and probably would have been there with a bowl win over memphis.

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I have to agree with this. I for sure know that UNT is better off than it was during the 90's, IMO.

I'm not really satisfied with the speed of the progress or the consistency of the recruiting progress for a team w/4 bowls, though.

I also believe that this year is a benchmark/reassessment year for this program in every area.

ADDENDUM for PMG:

POSITIVES:

I believe, as some do, that the fact that UNT is getting "name" opponents is a good thing, because I believe in the long run, it will help the program, give it legitimacy in 1A, and we're starting to see the Akrons and Rice's of the world start coming to Denton. Has it taken a long time? Yes. Absolutely.

There's no question that there's more visibility and interest in UNT football than when I was living in Denton from 1992-1998. Absolute world of difference. This can't do anything but help the program.

Frankly, UNT (for 4 of the past 5 years anyway) has done as well as they can do in their conference, and gave themselves a chance to shine on a national television stage in NO for 4 years. That's a credit to the program.

NEGATIVES:

I don't think recruiting is where it needs to be for a 4 time bowl team.

I believe UNT needs to be recruiting at the level of the Boise States, Marshalls, and USoMiss's. It's not happening.

How long do you wait until it does? What will help it along? More recruiting $$?

There have to be relationships built w/the high school coaches in Texas. Who knows how much of that's going on, and at what level?

Maybe Bill Utter will let some of the recruits "test drive" a few vehicles for a few weeks during the season as an incentive, like OU has allegedly done. (Joke). I don't know. Just throwing stuff out there.

What kind of success do you expect OOC if your recruiting isn't where you believe it should be?

Edited April 20, 2006 by LongJim

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I have to agree with this.  I for sure know that UNT is better off than it was during the 90's, IMO.

I'm not really satisfied with the speed of the progress or the consistency of the recruiting progress for a team w/4 bowls, though. 

I also believe that this year is a benchmark/reassessment year for this program in every area. 

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Agree----- Things are now in place better than ever before......no SWC anymore and some time has passed.... we have had some success lately (ignoring last year) ....we have a more recognizable schedule than many years...... We are a large diverse university now with more name recognition (helps recruiting)....... We really need to continue to improve and succeed in the next few years and hopefully this next one will be much better than the past one. The opportunity to succeed is now there... we need to take it.

Edited April 19, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SilverEagle]

no matter what the Negative Ned's say, we are still better off than we were 5, 10, 15 years ago. How many times before that did we have a freshman break the 200 yard game rushing record? back to back rushing champs? 4 straight conference titles? how about a bowl win? People notice these things.

Like it or not, its better now than its been since maybe Hayden Fry. Not comparing DD to HF, but the program as a whole has improved. Im not certain DD is the guy to push us into top 25 territory, but we were sniffing the top 25 in 2003 (got a few votes) and probably would have been there with a bowl win over memphis.

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If your main criterion for success is being in the top 25, then one Fry's teams actually did appear in the top 25. I believe that it was in 77.

As we have found out, people didn't come flocking to Fouts to see our "potential" dynamic duo last year. What gets people's attention is getting a win over a "noticable" opponent.

Since you brought Fry up. The latest GGII post puts an even stronger light on the Tennessee win in 75. Fry was down to his third string QB. Instead of going up and taking an ass whipping and picking up the check, he (and his assistant coaches) devised an offense that UT had never seen, went up there to win.

[Eagle1855]

If your main criterion for success is being in the top 25, then one Fry's teams actually did appear in the top 25. I believe that it was in 77.

As we have found out, people didn't come flocking to Fouts to see our "potential" dynamic duo last year. What gets people's attention is getting a win over a "noticable" opponent.

Since you brought Fry up. The latest GGII post puts an even stronger light on the Tennessee win in 75. Fry was down to his third string QB. Instead of going up and taking an ass whipping and picking up the check, he (and his assistant coaches) devised an offense that UT had never seen, went up there to win.

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like I said,

Not comparing DD to HF

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Hayden Fry was the best we have had I would never argue with you on that. I was simply stating that since HF, I dont think we have been close to the top 25 until 2003 when we were 9-3 and had an opportunity to have our first 10 win season in ages.

Are there not are more people at games now than there was 10, 15, 20 years ago (on average)? There are certainly more people that didnt even attend NT that know about us because of our recent accomplishments (whether you want to minimalize them or not) than there were in 1996, 1990, 1985 or whatever. How many USA today's featured one of our players were there in the past? Im not talking about RBs filling fouts, but they, as well as a 26 game conference winning streak and 4 titles put us on the map, and there is no denying that (whether its a case of the "best of the worst" or not).

I agree as much as anyone that we have to beat some noticable opponents. No, I am not content with beating up on the SunBelt year in and year out. But I dont see how anyone could say we arent better off now (minus last year) than we have been in over 25 years. And thats what matters in 2006, what we have done recently. Its important to understand where we came from, but we have to produce now. This is an important year in MG football, in my opinion.

I have high expectations for this program. You can call me crazy, but I think we will be a team like TT and TCU in the future, that can cause problems for top ranked teams, that hangs out in the top 25 every year. For that to happen, it takes a big committment from the fans and the administration. I know I am up for whatever it takes, but I dont know about the majority of fans/alumns, or the admin. I sometimes wonder if either think big enough. I also dont know if DD is the guy or not. history suggests that he is not. If he isnt, would the admin commit to bringing in a guy with a name, as UTEP and UCF have done? Im not sure.

this year will tell us a lot.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Eagle1855

[PlummMeanGreen]

If your main criterion for success is being in the top 25, then one Fry's teams actually did appear in the top 25. I believe that it was in 77.

As we have found out, people didn't come flocking to Fouts to see our "potential" dynamic duo last year. What gets people's attention is getting a win over a "noticable" opponent.

Since you brought Fry up. The latest GGII post puts an even stronger light on the Tennessee win in 75. Fry was down to his third string QB. Instead of going up and taking an ass whipping and picking up the check, he (and his assistant coaches) devised an offense that UT had never seen, went up there to win.

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Bill, I added an addendum to the original post mostly asking what were the trends, indicators or reasons that one voted yes or no with this poll. Just answering yes or no is very easy and I'm sure many non-interested lurkers have done just that, but "why" yes or no?

Edited April 19, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[Green Lantern]

If your main criterion for success is being in the top 25, then one Fry's teams actually did appear in the top 25. I believe that it was in 77.

As we have found out, people didn't come flocking to Fouts to see our "potential" dynamic duo last year. What gets people's attention is getting a win over a "noticable" opponent.

Since you brought Fry up. The latest GGII post puts an even stronger light on the Tennessee win in 75. Fry was down to his third string QB. Instead of going up and taking an ass whipping and picking up the check, he (and his assistant coaches) devised an offense that UT had never seen, went up there to win.

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While people may not have shown up "in droves" to see the dynamic duo...I'd argue that we had a great crowd/opportunity for the Tulsa home opener last year...we just blew it in front of our excited but fragile fans.

And before people claim that Tulsa is a name team or was the draw for this game...that is simply not the case. We had an exited and invogorated fanbase and we benefitted from unparalled offseason coverage and hype created with the aniticipation of seeing Jamario and Patrick together on a team that at the time was being heralded to do good things (didn't happen this way unfortunatley).

Beating big names helps...but we are still on our way of building our fanbase with or without those wins (just not as fast as many of us would like)...that being said, we have to make the most out of our opportunities to beat teams like SMU, La Tech, Akron, Tulsa, Baylor ect (none of which I qualify as big name teams).

Edited April 19, 2006 by Green Lantern

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

We were definitely better in the Fry era but let's just talk about the last 20 years.

Yes, we did some great things in conference under Dickey but unless we know how weak the conference has been that's not a good indicator. Our biggest criticism of Coach Dickey has been his abysmal out-of-conference record. So, I went back twenty years, back to the days of 1-AA, to get a comparison of how well we fared against non-conference opponents vs. those of today. I considered only those teams that are in Division 1-A today. There are no 1-AA teams in this comparison. Also, bear in mind that nine seasons were while we were in 1-AA and our independent rebuilding year in our first year back in 1-A. During that time, two coaches were fired because they couldn't win/be competitive. Here are the pitiful results:

From the period 1986 thru 1997 we played 39 non-conference games with teams who are currently in Division 1-A. Our record for those years was 7-32 or a winning percentage of .179. We averaged scoring 15.8 points per game and had an average of 35.2 scored against us.

Since 1998 we have played 41 games with teams out of our conference that are in Division 1-A. We have won only 4 of those games and lost 37 fpr a winning percentage of .098. Our scoring average during that period has been 10.9. There has been an average of 31.6 points scored against us by our opponents.

With four conference championships, a bowl win, two national rushing champions, and two others who were the school all-time rushing leaders, we still had fewer non-conference wins and a worse point differential than those of the 1-AA/coach firing years.

This is progress?

[MeanGreen61]

We were definitely better in the Fry era but let's just talk about the last 20 years.

Yes, we did some great things in conference under Dickey but unless we know how weak the conference has been that's not a good indicator.  Our biggest criticism of Coach Dickey has been his abysmal out-of-conference record.  So, I went back twenty years, back to the days of 1-AA, to get a comparison of how well we fared against non-conference opponents vs. those of today.  I considered only those teams that are in Division 1-A today.  There are no 1-AA teams in this comparison.  Also, bear in mind that nine seasons were while we were in 1-AA and our independent rebuilding year in our first year back in 1-A.  During that time, two coaches were fired because they couldn't win/be competitive.  Here are the pitiful results:

From the period 1986 thru 1997 we played 39 non-conference games with teams who are currently in Division 1-A.  Our record for those years was 7-32 or a winning percentage of .179.  We averaged scoring 15.8 points per game and had an average of 35.2 scored against us.

Since 1998 we have played 41 games with teams out of our conference that are in Division 1-A.  We have won only 4 of those games and lost 37 fpr a winning percentage of .098.  Our scoring average during that period has been 10.9.  There has been an average of 31.6 points scored against us by our opponents.

With four conference championships, a bowl win, two national rushing champions, and two others who were the school all-time rushing leaders, we still had fewer non-conference wins and a worse point differential than those of the 1-AA/coach firing years.

This is progress?

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Firing squad at dawn or dusk ?

Edited April 19, 2006 by MeanGreen61

[SilverEagle]

Firing squad at dawn or dusk ?

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In the movie Silverado (one of my favorites), execution was set at 10:00am.

[LoveMG]

In the movie Silverado (one of my favorites), execution was set at 10:00am.

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it's already been fatal for some fans

[Mean'n'Green07]

This is a pretty easy answer: Yes, and the main reason why is because of RV. We're not happy where we are at, but we are better off than 10 years ago. As long as RV stays here I think we will continue to progress.

I just hope to see something from DD next season. And if he goes 2-9 again I think he gets the boot no question.

[eulesseagle]

UNT is curretnly ranked #161 in the Saragin Poll at the end of last season. I believe the highest we have been in that poll was #65 (or so) under DD a couple of years ago.

Under Coach Fry we were ranked in the top 25.

Under Coach Nelson, in D-1AA, we were ranked #1 for a period of time. Can you imagine how many D-1A teams we were ahead of during those years??

Appalachian State, who won the D-1AA Championship is ranked #69 in the Saragin Poll. That puts them ahead of 48 other D-1A teams.

Of course the direction of MG football is better today .... only because it can not get much worse. A friend of mine once said, " I am so far down that I have to look up to see how far down I am."

DD as OC at UTEP (1994-1996) was 7-26-1 and 6-5 at SMU (6-5) = 13-31-1 (29%)

DD as HC at UNT is 39-55.....................

DD as OC and HC is 52-86-1 (37%)

DD is known for "DD Ball".....nothing too creative because, if I am not mistaken, he once said that he did not believe that his team could comprehend complex formations/plays.

Coach Fry believed just the opposite.

I really do not think that DD has the ability to put together a staff who knows how to put together a creative game plan to win much less recruit. The Fort Worth Star Telegram, almost daily, has the list of recruits who are committing to specific football programs before they graduate.....nothing about UNT.

What this tells me is that someone is out their recruiting and getting a jump on everyone else.........including UNT.

I am ready for the DD "error" to be over.

[DirtySavage]

until RV stops priding himself on the fact he can run our program with half the budget he's allowed to, we will stay in the dulldrums.

[kj86]

Better off, yes, but not well off.

It will take a full-blown commitment from the administration in order to get the program breathing Top 25 air.

Facilities, donations, season ticket holders, MGC members, attendance...you name it are all ancillary to the administration deciding that it is a major priority for the University to have competitive athletic programs...and mean it!

So, whatever the timetable is for getting a like-minded group of administrators in place is the same timetable we can look at for when we can expect the program to be where we all want it to be.

[GreenFlag]

until RV stops priding himself on the fact he can run our program with half the budget he's allowed to, we will stay in the dulldrums.

Care to ellaborate? I would think RV's personality lends him to spend too much, not too little.

[PlummMeanGreen]

And addendum on the first post...........I thought the original was much too short a post, actuallly.

Edited April 20, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[VideoEagle]

UNT is curretnly ranked #161 in the Saragin Poll at the end of last season.  I believe the highest we have been in that poll was #65 (or so) under DD a couple of years ago.

Under Coach Fry we were ranked in the top 25.

Under Coach Nelson, in D-1AA, we were ranked #1 for a period of time.  Can you imagine how many D-1A teams we were ahead of during those years??

Appalachian State, who won the D-1AA Championship is ranked #69 in the Saragin Poll.  That puts them ahead of 48 other D-1A teams.

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Jeff Saragin has repeatedly said you can NOT use his poll for overall rankings between 1A and 1AA because there is not enough games played between the two groups. The his system is of limited usefulness in comparing a single 1A team to a single 1AA team if the two are playing. So suggesting Appalachian State is ahead of 48 1A teams is simply not accurate.

And, if you remember back in 78, there were two Top 20 polls. No one did a Top 25 till after CNN was started in the 80s. The AP ran a poll of sports writers. UPI ran a poll of coaches in which Hayden got to vote the year we were ranked.

More coaches than just Hayden had to vote for us to get the ranking we had. But if Hayden had voted us number 2 or 3 - any team that go a number 1 vote was listed as getting such a vote - then under “others receiving votes” we would have shown up as getting 18 or 19 votes under the old system. The next week, when we would win, there would be a reason to start thinking about NT and vote for us. When enough did, we were ranked by the coaches. We were never ranked by the sports writers.