The Big West Doesn't Count

shaft · March 30, 2006

The haters on this board seem to be stuck on the notion that UNT should be a top 25 team every year or at least be even with the other top mid-majors. Every reasonable person on the board usually chimes in with something about these things taking time and resources.

The haters then scream about how's its 10 years since we moved up from d1aa and we should be on par with teams like Boise State or even Marshall. I think the big difference between UNT and some of the other top mid-majors is they were in conferences that made sense for them and helped their transition into D1. The Big West years did nothing for NT.

So why do we even look at anything before the 2000 season?

NT80 · March 30, 2006

The haters on this board seem to be stuck on the notion that UNT should be a top 25 team every year or at least be even with the other top mid-majors. Every reasonable person on the board usually chimes in with something about these things taking time and resources.
The haters then scream about how's its 10 years since we moved up from d1aa and we should be on par with teams like Boise State or even Marshall. I think the big difference between UNT and some of the other top mid-majors is they were in conferences that made sense for them and helped their transition into D1. The Big West years did nothing for NT.
So why do we even look at anything before the 2000 season?
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How does being in a conference with Denver and 2 Florida schools make geographic sense now? We are still in the worst conference, one made for convenience instead of one of preference. This is not the "Glory Era" of UNT football, despite the fake bowl games.

bigrobdsp · March 30, 2006

How does being in a conference with Denver and 2 Florida schools make geographic sense now? We are still in the worst conference, one made for convenience instead of one of preference. This is not the "Glory Era" of UNT football, despite the fake bowl games.
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youre a fake bowl game!!!

Quoner · March 30, 2006

youre a fake bowl game!!!
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You feel that world - that's my dumberizing the whole board.

shaft · March 30, 2006

Are you really disputing that the Sun Belt is better fit of North Texas than Big West was?

My point is that why not measure the program versus relevent benchmarks? Simply looking at it in terms of coaching reigns doesn't show the whole story. The school had to dig itself out of the whole being in d1aa had created. The Big West didn't help us do that, the Sun Belt did.

As far as the fake bowl game statment goes. That's a stupid argument, if you can even consider it an argument. Does any mid-major play in "real" bowl game? Or do you favor an inane return to the 70's when there were only a dozen bowl games?

Monkeypox · March 30, 2006

Wow, the excuse train keeps on rollling along.

Now it's "the Big West" doesn't count. Well, as for relevance, neither does the Sun Belt or its bowl game. As a conference, we do very poorly OOC, enough to show that our only skills are in beating up on each other. Heck, we were the flagship of the league by demonstrating an ability to ONLY BEAT OTHER SUN BELT SCHOOLS. Like it or not, it's a joke and will be until SOMEBODY can show a consistent ability to beat other teams around the country. And while having more bowl games provides entertainment for many of us, it has made one's placement in a bowl game useless as a measuring stick of success. YES, back when there were 12, it actually said something about your team. Now that the only requirement is you beat half a dozen of the worst teams in Div 1A football... notsomuch.

And you can't deny that the Sun Belt spawned from the Big West is moronic. So if the Sun Belt is such a grand place, then we should credit our time in the Big West for bringing it about. Funny, though, that a number of people argue that we should be in the WAC, which is basically the other side of the Sun Belt coin.

But, if you want to arbitrarily cherry pick things to make our situation at the root level of the totem pole look better, you might as well just disregard all years of the Sun Belt before we lost Idaho, Utah State, and NMSU, since they were members of the Big West.

Our record since we ditched all the nonsense teams of the Big West is 2-9. Love your methodology.

shaft · March 30, 2006

The Big West was a failure, that's why it doesn't exist anymore.

In trying to measure the program, we have to look at more than just the win-loss record. While that might be the most important standard, we all know the other factors contribute to our level of competitiveness.

The Sun Belt provides us a level playing feild, and we've done pretty well.

Sur our OOC record sucks, but we we're never a top 25 team and it doesn't make sense why people maintain these unrealistic expectations of the program.

This program faced a much larger set of obsticales in the late 90's than it does today. Sun Belt membership, and our success in the SBC is helping erode those obsiticales.

We used to say we couldn't win because we didn't have the right tools. The SBC is helping us get those tools. Which means what happens now really matters.

emmitt01 · March 30, 2006

While I won't go so far as the say the days in the Big West didn't count I will throw out a few things to try to temper the notion of "we have done nothing."

1)RV vs. Craig Helwig- Under Helwig football was just the athletic department's bitch. True, football is still whored out to a certain degree to pay the bills but it's not seen as a necessary evil now...RV has actually tried to make it a point of pride. How well we've accomplished this I'll leave to the naysayers to hash out.

2)Progress- Yes, I said it, progress. The athletic center, the new new facilities for ladies sports, tailgating, and even something as small as the new jumbotron are the result of winning in the lowly Sun Belt and going to a fake bowl game. Even if we had won the Big West consistently does anyone think we'd have seen these things? The answer is "no" because it wouldn't have built the excitement. As minute of a detail as it may seem New Orleans is a destination city, Boise Idaho not so much.

3)We're not a perennial powerhouse who knocks off Notre Dame, Penn State, Ohio State and Oklahoma like we used to be. Wait, let me take that back...we never were. This notion that we're failing because we're not top 25 or CUSA isn't knocking down our door is a bit misguided. Should that be our goal? Of course, and I think we will get there. But there is a lot more that goes into it than we are willing to admit. If we attended sporting events across the board and gave monetarily with the same ferver that we use to complain on this board we might be a step or two closer. And before anyone says "I'll show up or give when Dickey is gone, we win OOC, we're top 25, etc" ask one of your Aggie friends how many games or payments they missed when they were getting ass pounded last year. My gues is not many.

Long story short we do indeed have a long way to go but it's not an overnight process.

Quoner · March 30, 2006

Celebrate the fake bowl game - Emmit is right - seriously...

No matter what you think about the game - how the f did we pull off getting it in NO?

Its like the playboy mansion hosting a summit midget body builders - the midgets don't question why they are there - they just enjoy it to the fullest!

So grab a stool, a thimble of rum, and honk a fake boobie.

NT80 · March 31, 2006

Celebrate the fake bowl game - Emmit is right - seriously...
No matter what you think about the game - how the f did we pull off getting it in NO?
Its like the playboy mansion hosting a summit midget body builders - the midgets don't question why they are there - they just enjoy it to the fullest!
So grab a stool, a thimble of rum, and honk a fake boobie.
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I've been to all four of NT's recent Bowl games and I couldn't have been prouder of the team and school when we were there. Each game had it's own unique greatness. But we were there because we conquered the bottom 10% of 1-A, and it showed.

While I wouldn't trade the experience, let no one think our "bowl" is the same as a traditional power Bowl or BCS Bowl. Our bowl revealed how far we need to go to compete above the 4th place CUSA team. It was glaring how big, fast, and overwhelming Colo. St., Memphis, and USM were. That was the sad reality of our Bowls, how far away we really are from real 1-A programs.

Don't get misled by "Bowl" game participation. Demand we keep up with the CUSA teams of the world, not just the SBC teams!

KingDL1 · March 31, 2006

I've been to all four of NT's recent Bowl games and I couldn't have been prouder of the team and school when we were there. Each game had it's own unique greatness. But we were there because we conquered the bottom 10% of 1-A, and it showed.
While I wouldn't trade the experience, let no one think our "bowl" is the same as a traditional power Bowl or BCS Bowl. Our bowl revealed how far we need to go to compete above the 4th place CUSA team. It was glaring how big, fast, and overwhelming Colo. St., Memphis, and USM were. That was the sad reality of our Bowls, how far away we really are from real 1-A programs.
Don't get misled by "Bowl" game participation. Demand we keep up with the CUSA teams of the world, not just the SBC teams!
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I whole heartily agree.

I was at three of the bowls and had a great time, more than great. I would not go so far as to say they were fake but they are definitely no kind of measuring stick at least not yet. But some think these bowls were some sign of football legend I wish they were but they are not.

March 31, 2006

Say what you want about the bowls, but we had some good times and good crowds there, and that was a great feeling to win that one. Going to that little bowl was a lot better than what we had last year. Nobody would be complainig about the stature of the bowl if we hadn't gotten beat so terribly in Austin year before last. No doubt UT was getting better than I expected, but I don't know how any team could have done so badly. There were some terrible circumstances, but that doesn't explain last year's blowouts. Bottom line is these coaches should be able to get the players better prepared with all that time. And I guess I have to say our players need to dig deep.

I am sure many of you remember the great feeling of the Baylor game in Denton. What happened to that? Sure we had Kennedy, but it was alot more than that. There was actual crisp execution of plays. It was unstoppable.

PerryG2480 · March 31, 2006

I noticed a glaring difference in the athletes at Colorado State and Southern Miss...but losing 27-17 against Memphis is not a huge failure. They beat quite a few C-USA teams by larger margins than that recently.

We did slaughter Baylor, beat Cincinnatti, beat Troy (who's shown they can compete with "real" college football programs), and shut Texas completely out for a whole half of football in our recent history.

We're obviously not at that level right now, but I hope we're on our way back.

KingDL1 · March 31, 2006

I noticed a glaring difference in the athletes at Colorado State and Southern Miss...but losing 27-17 against Memphis is not a huge failure. They beat quite a few C-USA teams by larger margins than that recently.
We did slaughter Baylor, beat Cincinnatti, beat Troy (who's shown they can compete with "real" college football programs), and shut Texas completely out for a whole half of football in our recent history.
We're obviously not at that level right now, but I hope we're on our way back.
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In 2003 Baylor was one of the worst teams in D1A and one of their worst seasons in their history.

Cincinnati our one came to fame, most of Cincinnati's fan's told me their team would lose the night before the game because they choked in Bowl games, and their quarterback would force the ball. We picked them off left and right. Does that take a way from this game not really but one solid OOC game really just says fluke.

We need to consistently win OOC games against OOC teams that are solid mid-majors when they are winning to have any form of measure.

Arkstfan · March 31, 2006

It may be a "fake" bowl game but I had the opportunity in January to visit with reps from the Orange Bowl. They send people out to check into other games and they said the New Orleans was easily the best of the 13 games created in the last decade.

VideoEagle · March 31, 2006

It may be a "fake" bowl game but I had the opportunity in January to visit with reps from the Orange Bowl. They send people out to check into other games and they said the New Orleans was easily the best of the 13 games created in the last decade.
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Seems that by definition, any game Darrell Dicky coaches in must be a “bad game.” And any team he beats must be “one of the worst in decades.” To suggest otherwise might imply something positive around the North Texas program and for some, that simply can not be allowed.

NT80 · March 31, 2006

Seems that by definition, any game Darrell Dicky coaches in must be a “bad game.” And any team he beats must be “one of the worst in decades.
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If you look at his so-called Big-win games against Texas Tech, Cincy, Baylor, et al, you'll find those were not very good teams at those times. They were nice wins over good programs but they were not Top 25 teams as some would imply. That's not even mentioning the losses to provisional 1-AA teams and programs less than 5 years old.

shaft · March 31, 2006

Calling the Wyndam New Orleans Bowl a "fake" bowl is insulting.

Its insulting to the organizers, its insulting to schools, its insulting to the players, and insulting to the fans.

It also inaccurate. There is no difference between the New Orleans Bowl and 16 other bowls that all have the same payouts.

Now for the now one will address, the actual topic of this thread.

When measuring the successes of this program it makes more sense to look at the certain benchmarks like the d1aa, Big West, SBC eras instead of coaching terms. Institutional changes tend to have a bigger impact on our program than coaching does.

NT80 · March 31, 2006

Calling the Wyndam New Orleans Bowl a "fake" bowl is insulting.
Its insulting to the organizers, its insulting to schools, its insulting to the players, and insulting to the fans.
It also inaccurate. There is no difference between the New Orleans Bowl and 16 other bowls that all have the same payouts.
Now for the now one will address, the actual topic of this thread.
When measuring the successes of this program it makes more sense to look at the certain benchmarks like the d1aa, Big West, SBC eras instead of coaching terms. Institutional changes tend to have a bigger impact on our program than coaching does.
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It's not the $. The New Orleans Bowl is what it is. It was invented to allow the newly formed SBC football conference to have an "automatic" place for it's champion to attend a post season game. It was insulting first to fans to imply that a champion going to a built-for Bowl is the same as an existing Bowl initiated invite to host a conference's champ. One is bought, the other earned and invited. It's also insulting for the league to infer that it's own SBC champ couldn't compete with other conference teams for an at-large existing Bowl berth.

As for the second part of your post, I have no idea what your trying to compare.

VideoEagle · March 31, 2006

It's not the $. The New Orleans Bowl is what it is. It was invented to allow the newly formed SBC football conference to have an "automatic" place for it's champion to attend a post season game. It was insulting first to fans to imply that a champion going to a built-for Bowl is the same as an existing Bowl initiated invite to host a conference's champ. One is bought, the other earned and invited. It's also insulting for the league to infer that it's own SBC champ couldn't compete with other conference teams for an at-large existing Bowl berth.
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I can’t let this one pass!

I guess any bowl that is created for the a League is “bought.” That puts the New Orleans bowl in great company. Some other bowls that were originally “bought” for their leagues include the Las Vegas Bowl, the Boise Bowl, the Holiday Bowl, the new bowl in San Diego and of course, the Cotton Bowl. You must REALLY hate the Hawaii Bowl since that was created for a single school!

As for an “at-large existing Bowl bert” - where is this magical, mythical bowl? Almost all bowls have tie ins with leagues and thus are not “at-large.” The only one I can think of at this point is the new San Diego Bowl with has a Mountain West tie-in, plus an at-large place. But, this was just suppose to be for the first two years.

Again, it seems to come down to an attitude that anything connected with Darrell Dickey, North Texas or the SBC must automatically be awful by definition.

Edited March 31, 2006 by VideoEagle

Arkstfan · March 31, 2006

It was insulting first to fans to imply that a champion going to a built-for Bowl is the same as an existing Bowl initiated invite to host a conference's champ. One is bought, the other earned and invited. It's also insulting for the league to infer that it's own SBC champ couldn't compete with other conference teams for an at-large existing Bowl berth.
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Rose Bowl. Founded to promote western football and bring tourists to their little festival.

Cotton Bowl founded by the SWC so their members would have some place to play.

Fiesta Bowl founded to give the WAC champion some place to play.

Holiday Bowl founded to give the WAC champion some place to play.

Independence Bowl founded to give Southland champion some place to play.

Las Vegas Bowl. Founded to give MAC and Big West champions a place to play (they jointly paid for it!)

MPC Computers Bowl. Founded to give Big West champion a place to play.

Motor City founded to give MAC champion a place to play.

Hawaii created to give Hawaii a place to play.

Looks like the New Orleans Bowl is in fine company.

Arkstfan · March 31, 2006

It's also insulting for the league to infer that it's own SBC champ couldn't compete with other conference teams for an at-large existing Bowl berth.
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There is a competition for at-large bowl berths???

When is that held?

There are virtually no at-large bowl berths and the few that emerge tend to happen because a league didn't have enough teams qualify.

VideoEagle · March 31, 2006

Looks like Arkstfan and I were typing at the same time!

Must be some kind of plot!

Arkstfan · March 31, 2006

Looks like Arkstfan and I were typing at the same time!
Must be some kind of plot!
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Worked well. You forgot the Fiesta and I forgot the Poinsettia.

March 31, 2006

OK, now I understand how Dickey got the contract extension. If you throw out being an independent and the Big West, then Dickey is 31-30. That's a winning record and warrants a raise and an extension.

But understand, you have to throw out being an independent, too. Otherwise, he still has a losing record.