My talk with Coach Darrell Dickey

[UNT78]

One comment about KSU's support and other Big 12 programs...firstly, if we had been playing Oklahoma and Nebraska for the last 75 years we too would have big crowds no matter what our record was as well. Our program does not compare with a big 12 program, plain and simple! Our recent support has been "better" than at ANY time in our history of playing football, including the Hyden Fry era. This has happen as a result our winning games, you have to give that credit to Dickey!

Secondly, we currently have tremendous support from the UNT administration. From the president, to having one of the best athletic directors in the country. Be happy for what we have!!! Now, as long as we have the support of the administration and a commitment to hire good people, we're going to get better and better. If Dickey doesn't have a winning record next year, I know for a fact, he's gone. The athletic director will hire a good coach to continue our success. Good coaches are not hard to find, they're a lot of good division 1-A assistants and many good division 1-AA head coaches we can afford and recruit. And, they'd would love to come to Denton to coach the Mean Green... and, make the money Dickey makes. Again, be happy and let's wait and see what happens next year...

[Eagle1855]

Not sure why you would ever get bored about reading others memories about a legend that started doing some amazing things at your own school?  The only reason I wrote the paragraph above about him is because someone got a fact about him wrong and because others here on this board seem to forget how high the bar was set for some of those who came here before us, and how high it can be met again with a little ingenuity and creativity.  Where not talking about lighting strikes here, we're talking coaching.  Corky Nelson came close to pulling off some of the same successes that Fry did only a few years after coach Fry left.

And sure, a coach of Fry's magnitude only comes along once in a while, but that doesn't mean we can't find the next one.  And with that I suggest one only needs to look at TxSt's Coach Bailiff and what he's been able to do there in a very short period of time for proof.  I think that guy is the next Hawkins, Meyer or Francione.  Time will tell.

Rick

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Im not bored of others memories. I think its great that at one time we were legitimate, and I enjoy hearing about days when our program was viewed as such.

Its the constant bemoaning over the current state of affairs and how we "missed the boat" that I find to be annoying. Thats true. We did miss the boat. If we had gotten into the SWC maybe we would have had a lot more success and became one of the "big dogs" in the state. Or we could have just as easily been a U of H, who enjoyed a lot of success then slipped into the dark ages with the formation of the Big 12-- because make no mistake, we would have been left out of that as well. Texas, OU and A&M would have had no interest in sharing recruits from one of the nations' hottest recruiting beds with another large state school located in that market. I think that is a large part of the reason Houston was left out.

Either way, it would have been better than it is now.

But whats the point of constantly saying, "things would be/were different if/when Hayden was around". Well no kidding. He is regarded as one of the greats. Just look at all the assistant coaches that learned under him that have now become great head coaches.

and for Texas State's sake, I hope Bailiff isnt the next Francione.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Eagle1855

[KingDL1]

Our recent support has been "better" than at ANY time in our history of playing football, including the Hyden Fry era. This has happen as a result our winning games, you have to give that credit to Dickey!

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Several factors could be included in past year's attendance averages:  actual attendance vs. tickets sold counts, 1-A vs. 1-AA status, school enrollment doubled from 1979 (16K) to 2006 (32K), new conferences, new AD, new President, new coach, teams played at home, team record, etc...

From the NT media guide:

DD:

2005--16,446

2004--15,184

2003--18,694

2002--15,260

2001--14,769

2000--14,180

1999--13,752

1998--12,480

Matt Simon:

1997--19,704

1996--14,234

1995--17,376

1994--19,517

Dennis Parker:

1993--8,596

1992--6,946

1991--8,452

Corky Nelson:

1990--14,783

1989--14,289

1988--15,319

1987--13,764

1986--12,730

1985--10,150

1984--11,125

1983--12,080

1982--9,094

Bob Tyler:

1981--12,494

Jerry Moore:

1980--14,800

1979--14,500

Hayden Fry:

1978--17,683

1977--19,599

1976--11,172

1975--11,843

1974--9,683

1973--11,990

Rod Rust:

1972--6,000

1971--10,470

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I think you should be careful who you give credit for the better attendance, I believe much of the increase is do to the total school attendance and RV reinstating tailgating plus the promotion of the whole game day experience.

Also looking at the numbers and the total attendance as at percentage of UNT enrollment Fry killed DD.

[adman]

Also looking at the numbers and the total attendance as at percentage of UNT enrollment Fry killed DD.

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[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Also looking at the numbers and the total attendance as at percentage of UNT enrollment Fry killed DD.

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I'm not sure you can say that simply because you can't differentiate student game attendance vs. non-student game attendance between the two eras. All you have is total attendance vs total enrollment. It very well may be that more students as a percentage of enrollment attend games now than did then and less alums/faculty/Dentonites/Denia residents.

For all we know 5 students went to home games during Fry's tenure. You really need to be able to see receipts of tickets to make that call.

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Edited March 30, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[KingDL1]

Also looking at the numbers and the total attendance as at percentage of UNT enrollment Fry killed DD.

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I'm not sure you can say that simply because you can't differentiate student game attendance vs. non-student game attendance between the two eras. All you have is total attendance vs total enrollment. It very well may be that more students as a percentage of enrollment attend games now than did then and less alums/faculty/Dentonites/Denia residents.

For all we know 5 students went to home games during Fry's tenure. You really need to be able to see receipts of tickets to make that call.

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Denton is more than twice the size it was then, the school is nearly twice as big, I am willing to go out on a limb and say that population and total enrollment helps getting butts in the stands. Take game attendance and divide in population available total enrollment to do some growth percentages you will find that DD would nearly have to double his attendance to match Fry. I do these kind growth analysis at work all the time.

There are plenty of people on this board who can shed some light on if the students attended or not during Fry's era.

And I was originally saying to give DD blanket credit for current attendance is not well founded.

[SilverEagle]

Well, for what it's worth. Shortly after he was hired, Fry held a "town meeting" during the lunch hour at one of the large auditoriums on campus. There was a story in the campus paper, so everyone was aware of it. The placed was packed.

Fry shared his "vision" for North Texas with the students and faculty that day. He was very well received, and the only time that any of the students chuckled was when he said that he wanted North Texas to be the "Notre Dame of the south".

Toward the end of the meeting, a tall blond stood up and asked (in her best Ginger-from-Gilligan's-Island voice) "what can us girls do to help with the program?". There was just the slightest look of lechery that fleetingly crossed his face, and then he smiled, and shared his ideas on that subject,......which eventually became the "Eagle Angels".

So, I'd feel pretty safe in saying that Fry got the students very much involved.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Toward the end of the meeting, a tall blond stood up and asked (in her best Ginger-from-Gilligan's-Island voice) "what can us girls do to help with the program?".  There was just the slightest look of lechery that fleetingly crossed his face, and then he smiled, and shared his ideas on that subject,......which eventually became the "Eagle Angels". 

So, I'd feel pretty safe in saying that Fry got the students very much involved.

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The truth is/was... Get all the tall-good-looking blonds available there (brunettes and red-heads too) and I will bet the male attendence will go up.........LOL

Edited March 30, 2006 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Mad Hatter]

Look at the attendance vs. Baylor. If we played Big schools all the time our attendance would be closer to 30k on average.

[Quoner]

The truth is/was... Get all the tall-good-looking blonds available there (brunettes and red-heads too) and I will bet the male attendence will go up.........LOL

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Is that a shot at the eagle angels?

[SilverEagle]

The truth is/was... Get all the tall-good-looking blonds available there (brunettes and red-heads too) and I will bet the male attendence will go up.........LOL

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Well, let's just say that Hayden Fry clearly understood what was important in selling his program (other than winning games) and he was clearly aware of the "potential resources" that were available at that time.

If I remember correctly, it was around that time that the "Eagle Dolls" got started. They eventually dropped the name,....... but the tradition (and the dancing girls) lives on.

[UNT78]

Attendance is not where we want to be as of yet, but future scheduling and hopefully more wins will dramatically increase our season averages in the future. Our goal is to get into Conference USA. If that happens, you will see a dramatic increase for sure. How long that takes is anyone's guess...

[MeanGreen61]

Also looking at the numbers and the total attendance as at percentage of UNT enrollment Fry killed DD.

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Beleive Hayden would be the first to say that attendance sucked when he was at North Texas. A nationally ranked team in '77 played 2 of 4 games in Texas Stadium and averaged only 19,599. In '78 the attendance was 17,683 with 4 games in Texas Stadium (including Miss. State & Oklahoma State). The final game vs Memphis was at Fouts & Liberty Bowl folks were there. Word was that attendance was so sparse it turned them off. NT sure didn't go bowlin'.

[SilverEagle]

Beleive Hayden would be the first to say that attendance sucked when he was at North Texas. A nationally ranked team in '77 played 2 of 4 games in Texas Stadium and averaged only 19,599. In '78 the attendance was 17,683 with 4 games in Texas Stadium (including Miss. State & Oklahoma State). The final game vs Memphis was at Fouts & Liberty Bowl folks were there. Word was that attendance was so sparse it turned them off. NT sure didn't go bowlin'.

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I was at that game. The attendance wasn't that sparse,.....it just wasn't a sell-out like the Liberty Bowl folks wanted.

[meangreen11]

I think that inclimate weather also hurt the attendance at that game as well.

[TIgreen01]

I'm not sure you can say that simply because you can't differentiate student game attendance vs. non-student game attendance between the two eras.  All you have is total attendance vs total enrollment.  It very well may be that more students as a percentage of enrollment attend games now than did then and less alums/faculty/Dentonites/Denia residents.

For all we know 5 students went to home games during Fry's tenure.  You really need to be able to see receipts of tickets to make that call.

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Denton is more than twice the size it was then, the school is nearly twice as big, I am willing to go out on a limb and say that population and total enrollment helps getting butts in the stands. Take game attendance and divide in population available total enrollment to do some growth percentages you will find that DD would nearly have to double his attendance to match Fry. I do these kind growth analysis at work all the time.

There are plenty of people on this board who can shed some light on if the students attended or not during Fry's era.

And I was originally saying to give DD blanket credit for current attendance is not well founded.

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If you do this for a living, then I'm sure you'd agree that just comparing numbers doesn't tell the whole story....esp. when the numbers you quoted above were averages for an entire season. You don't see individual game peaks/lows. Anyone who has been going to home games regularly for more than the last 5 years can vouche for the fact that there are more people in the stands, on a game by game basis, than ever were here for Matt Simon...but your numbers show the opposite.

Edited March 31, 2006 by TIgreen01

[KingDL1]

If you do this for a living, then I'm sure you'd agree that just comparing numbers doesn't tell the whole story....esp. when the numbers you quoted above were averages for an entire season.  You don't see individual game peaks/lows.  Anyone who has been going to home games regularly for more than the last 5 years can vouche for the fact that there are more people in the stands, on a game by game basis, than ever were here for Matt Simon...but your numbers show the opposite.

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You are right, but to ignore the rest of the other changes in UNT policy, UNT enrollment, and Denton population in favor of just DD is flawed, extremely flawed. Not only who we played, when we played, what the weather was like that day and so on. Remember last year we had pretty great weather for all the home games. Being in an extremely easy conference with an automatic Bowl tie-in.

At my job we work with population counts, population growth, income, day-time pop densities, traffic counts, new housing starts and etc. We do this to make projections the best we can for locations of different retail needs. There is a margin of error but after a while you tend to see things as many parts to the whole and develop an instinct of sorts. Is it developed for UNT football, no but it is a similar idea.

I am just unwilling to give all or even the majority of the credit to Dickey.

Edited March 31, 2006 by KingDL1

[MeanGreen61]

I am just unwilling to give all or even the majority of the credit to Dickey.

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I've don't believe that I've ever seen you give him credit for anything positive.

[TIgreen01]

You are right, but to ignore the rest of the other changes in UNT policy, UNT enrollment, and Denton population in favor of just DD is flawed, extremely flawed. Not only who we played, when we played, what the weather was like that day and so on. Remember last year we had pretty great weather for all the home games. Being in an extremely easy conference with an automatic Bowl tie-in.

At my job we work with population counts, population growth, income, day-time pop densities, traffic counts, new housing starts and etc. We do this to make projections the best we can for locations of different retail needs. There is a margin of error but after a while you tend to see things as many parts to the whole and develop an instinct of sorts. Is it developed for UNT football, no but it is a similar idea.

I am just unwilling to give all or even the majority of the credit to Dickey.

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I definitely think that all those things contribute....but the catalyst for people seeking entertainment is that they have to be attending something that they think will be entertaining in the first place. Winning football is much more entertaining to watch (to the masses) than losing football. Winning football creates a buzz. DD put a team on the field that won the majority of their games for 3 years and lost very little at home....thus creating a more enticing entertainment option. Not giving him credit for that sounds more like bias than reason.

[KingDL1]

I definitely think that all those things contribute....but the catalyst for people seeking entertainment is that they have to be attending something that they think will be entertaining in the first place.  Winning football is much more entertaining to watch (to the masses) than losing football.  Winning football creates a buzz.  DD put a team on the field that won the majority of their games for 3 years and lost very little at home....thus creating a more enticing entertainment option.  Not giving him credit for that sounds more like bias than reason.

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I know several casual fans that found Dickey ball rather boring and were more interested in the tailgating and the game-day experience. Look I just think beating SBC teams as not a huge accomplishment when most have been ranked over a hundred. I have talked to several students over the last few years because I was trying to sell the program to anyone who would listen, most of the students said all kinds of sad crap about our team, but what I heard the most was we never play teams I have heard of at home. Whether that is just unenlightened students or what I am not sure, the game-day & tailgating was an easier sell even when we were wining. I think RV has had every bit as much or more to do with attendance lately.

[TIgreen01]

I know several casual fans that found Dickey ball rather boring and were more interested in the tailgating and the game-day experience. Look I just think beating SBC teams as not a huge accomplishment when most have been ranked over a hundred. I have talked to several students over the last few years because I was trying to sell the program to anyone who would listen, most of the students said all kinds of sad crap about our team, but what I heard the most was we never play teams I have heard of at home. Whether that is just unenlightened students or what I am not sure, the game-day & tailgating was an easier sell even when we were wining. I think RV has had every bit as much or more to do with attendance lately.

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Well, I sure hope you are right...b/c I don't know if we'll ever see a run of 4 straight years without a loss in conference again. Like the competition or not, but that WAS a HUGE accomplishment.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Beleive Hayden would be the first to say that attendance sucked when he was at North Texas. A nationally ranked team in '77 played 2 of 4 games in Texas Stadium and averaged only 19,599. In '78 the attendance was 17,683 with 4 games in Texas Stadium (including Miss. State & Oklahoma State). The final game vs Memphis was at Fouts & Liberty Bowl folks were there. Word was that attendance was so sparse it turned them off. NT sure didn't go bowlin'.

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Had Hayden Fry's Mean Green teams been in a conference like the present SBC, I not only think his teams would have dominated such a patsy league, but he would have done more with all the bowling and would have taken our program to even more Top 20 or Top 25 (today) rankings which he did with "NTSU" even with our Indedpendent status that had no bowl affiliation.

Comparing the Fry era to the Dickey Ball era would be almost as unfair as comparing the 2 coaches themselves. FWIW, to quote one of you who said this to me recently: "Hayden Fry did more selling of our Mean Green football in a mere few mintutes on last Fall's national telecast of the Troy game than one particular UNT coach presently on staff may have done in his 8 years on the payroll.

What was even funnier with that national telecast last Fall is how ol' Hayden even had SMU ex Craig James eatin' out of his hands during that part of the broadcast and had Craig James all but ready to join the Mean Green Club as the former Pony Express'er jumped on all the "positive talkin" (about UNT for heaven's sake) bandwagon that Fry had going in the press box that night on the ESPN TV broadcast.

Coach Dickey had a a similar national radio broadcast opportunity on ESPN Radio just 2 or so years ago to spread the Mean Green gospel as we were also right in the middle of buidling our Athletic Center, but all the ESPN national audience heard from DD that day was how tough he and we had it in Denton. How we had our backs against the wall in Denton, etc, etc, etc. Not one word was said by the NT coach about our Eagle Point Campus athletic venue construction program (and its future for a new stadium) on ESPN national radio that afternoon by NT Coach Darrell Dickey. Amazing............

Was Hayden Fry perfect or could he walk on water? Of course not, but he could get his teams up to play schools we had no business having on our schedules back in that day more than anyone I've ever seen; but on the other side of the coin, he might have allowed some also rans to stay in a game with his talented Mean Green teams longer than they should have. One Texas sportswriter back then called Hayden Fry "probaby the best Game Day coach in the Southwest."

Yet for those of us who were at that last home game of the 1978 season, you might recall that is was a very cold, crisp and frosty November night game at Fouts Field. Not conducive to Lone Star "fair weather" fans. I think they sold a whole lot of coffee and hot chocolate that night.

DEMOGRAPHICS OF NT, DENTON AND DENTON COUNTY WERE NIGHT AND DAY BACK IN THE FRY ERA COMPARED TO TODAY: Denton County had about 99,0000 total population (560,000 today) during that era as the Texas Almanac even called our alma mater's home county a "rural" county. I believe NT had about 17,000 students at the time, too (compared to 32,000 today). Back then, I also really believe we were more of a commuter school than we are today. We have many more students living on or near campus than we did in the 1970's, but of course, we have almost twice the enrollment today compared to the Fry era.

That last home game versus Memphis in 1978 was not only a disappointment at the turnstiles on that cold November night (which was a "no no" thing to do with your football schedule because of the weather cycle of that era) but for many of us it wasn't that the bowl officials didn't come a-callin' for us to go bowling**, but it was because it was Hayden Fry's last game to coach as the North Texas head footballl coach. **I think our best chance to go bowling was with the Astro-Bluebonnet Bowl of which their executive president had been swamped with calls from Mean Green fans to consider Fry's last NT football team.

The Big 10's U of Iowa Hawkeyes would hire Coach Fry away from us just a few weeks later. Never will forget hearing the news on KRLD on a Saturday AM and the disappointment I had with the news.

I always felt the attendance count of that cold night in November at Fouts Field versus the Memphis Tigers (BTW, we did win that game) by a much smaller NT fan base of that era was the clincher that convinced Fry and most of his assistants it was time to move on to greener pastures; but after all, how many coaches have we had at NORTH TEXAS could or would have ever turned down a Big 10 job to stay in Denton?

Edited April 2, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[flyonthewall]

I think Dickeys biggest accomplishment his how many big time programs came calling for him after the 2nd straight championship and the bowl victory. Oh wait, I meant the third straight championship. No was it the fourth straight......... Kansas State where he was a great quarterback.........

[PlummMeanGreen]

I think Dickeys biggest accomplishment his how many big time programs came calling for him after the 2nd straight championship and the bowl victory.  Oh wait, I meant the third straight championship.  No was it the fourth straight......... Kansas State where he was a great quarterback.........

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I'm sure some of us would like to know who those big time programs were and how many of those DD actually interviewed for?

This is a complete revelation of new information. The only job we heard that there were "supposed" some semblance of talks was for the Idaho head football coaching job. But wouldn't most unbiased college football fans during that time probably suggests to DD that that would hardly be considered a step upward--of course, DD (and family) would have been able to host the Bobby Ray family with snow skiing vacations had he actually been offered and would have taken the Vandal's job. OH THE HUMANITY............AND all the kissin' up going on at UNT with our officials as we continue to find just one varsity sport (outside women's soccer) that we can excel and have a coach who actually has an over .500 W/L record "after" even several years on the NT payroll.

And come on, flyonethewall, lets admit the obvious that the SBC was a hodge-podge of a football conference thrown together and made up of schools that no one else wanted.** DD was just fortunate to have a had a head start with the D1-A talent he had on hand at the beginnig of the SBC's football existence over the the rest of the 'Belt schools (many of whom were just out of a 1-AA classification). And lest one forgets, we did lose to 1-AA (and future SBC member) Troy U during our 1'st bowl year with DD and to bring all this closer to the present, we also lost to Howard Schnellenberger's FAU team (@ Fouts Field) during DD's last bowl year of 2004.

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** Any of you think UNT would be ready "facilty-wise" (once again) to host a CUSA consultant or official if they suddenly found themselves needing a new member once again? I've heard some of you say we would be no more prepared today for such a visit that than when we first tried to put our best foot forward last time CUSA consultant Chuck Neinas visited our campus. Can't say that I could disagree with some of you on that subject, either. I can think of 2 SBC schools today who would probably get a CUSA call B4 UNT would.

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IN A NUTSHELL: Folks, we need some drastice changes soon as our present measures (or situation) will undoubtedly require it.

Edited April 2, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[meangreen11]

Plumm as I've said before I respect your posts and it is clear that you have some knowledge about the subject. What do you propose we do to fix the current situation? If you were in charge what steps would you take to correct things?