You cannot be Drunk in a bar?!?!?!?!

MeanGreenTeeth · March 23, 2006

I barely ever go out drinking, but I'm furious. Apparently, the TABC has decided that Texas law allows people to be prosecuted for being drunk IN A BAR. They have even been arresting people in hotel lobbies who are staying at the hotel... I encourage everyone to write their state congressman and the governor to put an end to this stupid stupid practice. Remember this while you are tailgating this year. You don't want to be arrested even if you are minding your own business.

Edited March 23, 2006 by MeanGreenTeeth

ipEAGLE · March 23, 2006

TABC.

MeanGreenBuzz · March 23, 2006

Yeah, TABC set out on this rampage about 6 months ago to show that they were a useful organization because the legislature was thinking of disbanding them. They started enforcing all kinds of laws at bars, including ticketing bar tenders for serving more than 2 drinks an hour for a single person (yes, they actually sat at tables watching bar tenders and customers and counting their drinks). Also, from what I understand it doesn't matter if they drank the drinks or if they gave them to someone else and came back if the bar tender gives them more drinks they can be ticketed. It also applies to waiters and has been enforced. They can also ticket bar tenders for not cutting customers off when they are drunk (obviously or not if they are over the legal limit its the bar tenders job to stop serving).

meangreendork · March 23, 2006

I saw the story on this the other night...it was pretty sad that they'd actually start arresting people who weren't actually drunk. But I wouldn't be shocked if TABC was going to be disbanded.

Eagle1855 · March 23, 2006

The TABC is useless. Let local police officers do their job.

Bartenders dont need to be bothered with counting how many drinks per hour they are serving every single patron in a bar. Its hard enough to even get all the drink orders out when a bar is slammed with traffic. If you are old enough to get into a bar and consume alcohol, you are old enough to make the decision to (or not to) drink in a responsible fashion.

This is just another example of some state tax-supported governmental power flexing its muscles, over-stepping their bounds, and doing their best to take away as many personal freedoms as possible to massage their egos. They have already told us we cant smoke in bars in Austin... maybe next we can get rid of that nasty alcohol as well. I dont smoke, but the infringement on personal freedoms annoys me.

I'll be happy to write my congressman.

gksmith · March 23, 2006

Ron White routine?????

I thought that was just a temporary crackdown on St. Patrick's day...one of the biggest drinking holidays of the year...and it fell on a Friday.

If it is something perminant, I guess the only place to get really sloshed is at home. Too expensive to binge drink in a bar anyway.

Eagle1855 · March 23, 2006

HoustonChronicle.com

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3742462.html

More than 2,200 people have been arrested in Texas bars in the six

months since the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission announced a

crackdown on public intoxication, primarily targeting bars.

The arrests included people who were drunk in bars, who sold alcohol to

a drunk person, or a drunk employee on the premises of a bar or

restaurant with a license to sell alcohol, said Carolyn Beck, a

spokeswoman for the TABC.

The commission has been responsible for enforcing the state's alcoholic

beverage code for the past 70 years. In August, 2005, the agency

announced it was beginning a crackdown on public intoxication, using

both undercover and open operations.

The agency has used undercover agents before, Beck said. In a recent

operation, agents infiltrated 36 bars in a Dallas suburb and arrested

30 people for public intoxication.

"The laws in Texas against public intoxication also apply to bars,"

Beck said. "Texas has the highest DWI rate in the nation, and we are

trying to reduce those rates."

The TABC also is trying to "encourage licensees" to serve patrons

responsibly, Beck said.

Part of the problem with enforcing the state's code regulating alcohol

sales is "people still think that a bar is place to go get drunk," Beck

said. "People can go into bars and have fun with their friends and not

become intoxicated to the point whether they may become a danger to

themselves or others."

People arrested for public intoxication "are not people who had a

couple of beers with dinner. They are people who are so drunk that they

caught the attention of a TABC agent," Beck said.

TABC agents have the discretion to cite the person for public

intoxication and release them to "a responsible party." Or, a person

who is so drunk "that they may be a danger to themselves or others" can

be arrested and taken to jail, Beck said.

While customers are being questioned, another TABC agent is taking

steps to arrest and take to jail the employees responsible for selling

alcohol to an intoxicated person, Beck said.

In the Houston area, the TABC is conducting an enforcement program

called Operation "Last Call," said Sgt. Mike Barnett, that is "designed

to reduce the number of DWIs."

"The program, in a nutshell, is designed to keep the streets safer by

reducing the numbers of DWI offenders," he said.

MeanGreenBuzz · March 23, 2006

While customers are being questioned, another TABC agent is taking
steps to arrest and take to jail the employees responsible for selling
alcohol to an intoxicated person, Beck said.
←

Having friends that are bartenders it is very hard to tell how drunk someone is in the 3 seconds it takes for them to order a drink and yell their last name. If TABC wants to station an officer behind the bar determining who gets another drink and who doesn't that is on them, but a bartender is no trained professional that can determine in a matter of seconds who is drunk and they don't have time to administer an intoxication test to every person that walks up to the bar.

emmitt01 · March 23, 2006

Ladies and gentlemen the "public intoxication" statute is a very valuable and useful tool for law enforcement. If used correctly it can alleviate a lot of problems and avoid others. For instance, if presented with a disturbance where there is no clear cut aggressor, and if it is obvious that the incident will continue or escalate once I leave, I arrest one (or both) parties if they are intoxicated. Same goes for domestic disturbances where law states that someone MUST go to jail to avoid further family violence...in the event that the primary aggressor cannot be determined. Greenville Avenue, Deep Ellum, Cedar Springs, etc would be close to riotous without the public intox statute. Furthermore, there is no field sobriety test for public intoxication. You don't have the right to a breathalizer, we won't test your eyes and you won't be asked to walk a straight line. It's at the discretion of the individual officer.

With that said, and as I stated earlier, this is when used correctly and prudently. I can't speak for the actions of TABC. And as for the serving more than two drinks in an hour and other laws these are the direct result of organizations like MADD wanting the government to force bars to be more responsible and liable for who and how much they serve. Write your congressman if you please, but their lobby carries a much bigger stick.

All I'm saying here folks is let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or make a mountan of a molehill (or pick your own cliche). My job is much easier when the public can temper its outrage against our doing our jobs responsibly.

Edited March 23, 2006 by emmitt01

bigrobdsp · March 23, 2006

I thought better of this post and removed it

Edited March 23, 2006 by bigrobdsp

MeanGreenTeeth · March 23, 2006

For instance, if presented with a disturbance where there is no clear cut aggressor, and if it is obvious that the incident will continue or escalate once I leave, I arrest one (or both) parties if they are intoxicated.
←

I have no problem with charging public intoxication if it is in conjunction with another crime (disturbing the peace, assault, etc.), but to arrest someone because they are drunk, especially inside a private establishment, who has committed no crime is beyond belief. If someone is intoxicated how dare you arrest them because you feel its clear a crime could be committed. I don't want someone arrested for something they haven't done.... This law needs some major reworking.

UNTFan23 · March 23, 2006

There is no field sobriety test for public intoxication. You don't have the right to a breathalizer, we won't test your eyes and you won't be asked to walk a straight line. It's at the discretion of the individual officer.
←

I think there should be standards that must be followed, much like DWIs. If law enforcement is going to go gang busters on public intoxication, then let's establish guidelines which defines what public intoxication is and what it takes to get arrested for it.

bigrobdsp · March 23, 2006

I think there should be standards that must be followed, much like DWIs. If law enforcement is going to go gang busters on public intoxication, then let's establish guidelines which defines what public intoxication is and what it takes to get arrested for it.
←

I disagree if they establish public intoxication guidelines, I could be arrested anywhere at any time. at least now with no discernable guidelines I have a chance at a dismissal.

meangreendork · March 23, 2006

Here's hoping the TABC decides to be discriminating about who they bust. Otherwise, look for an angry mob.

Eagle1855 · March 23, 2006

Here's hoping the TABC decides to be discriminating about who they bust. Otherwise, look for an angry mob.
←

oh they will be discriminating, you can be sure. and the group will be "college students"

ipEAGLE · March 24, 2006

oh they will be discriminating, you can be sure. and the group will be "college students"
←

emmitt01 · March 24, 2006

Oh yeah, one more thing. The statute doesn't just say that you must be drunk in public, it also states that you must present a danger to yourself or others.

MeanGreenTeeth · March 24, 2006

Oh yeah, one more thing. The statute doesn't just say that you must be drunk in public, it also states that you must present a danger to yourself or others.
←

So we can't define "drunk" and we can't define "danger to self or others". So if I'm sitting in a bar after having three beers minding my own business, it's perfectly fine for an officer to arrest me because it's "possible" that I might drive home and "possibly" get into a wreck.

This is not a slam on you Emmit, because I don't know you. But a big chunk of police folks I've encountered have a huge power complex (apparently the TABC is a good example). I don't want them to have such open ended power.

Edited March 24, 2006 by MeanGreenTeeth

emmitt01 · March 24, 2006

So we can't define "drunk" and we can't define "danger to self or others". So if I'm sitting in a bar after having three beers minding my own business, it's perfectly fine for an officer to arrest me because it's "possible" that I might drive home and "possibly" get into a wreck.
This is not a slam on you Emmit, because I don't know you. But a big chunk of police folks I've encountered have a huge power complex (apparently the TABC is a good example). I don't want them to have such open ended power.
←

No, actually you have it all wrong. If, at the moment when the officer comes into contact with you, you are intoxicated in public and present a danger to yourself or others then you can be arrested. It's not some nebulous "maybe" or "could be" rule. No officer that I've ever met is a member of the psychic friends network and to suggest that we go off arresting people willy nilly (on balance) is insulting to all of us.

MeanGreenTeeth · March 24, 2006

No, actually you have it all wrong. If, at the moment when the officer comes into contact with you, you are intoxicated in public and present a danger to yourself or others then you can be arrested. It's not some nebulous "maybe" or "could be" rule. No officer that I've ever met is a member of the psychic friends network and to suggest that we go off arresting people willy nilly (on balance) is insulting to all of us.
←

Then tell me how TABC can justify arresting people in a hotel bar?

Eagle1855 · March 24, 2006

No, actually you have it all wrong. If, at the moment when the officer comes into contact with you, you are intoxicated in public and present a danger to yourself or others then you can be arrested. It's not some nebulous "maybe" or "could be" rule. No officer that I've ever met is a member of the psychic friends network and to suggest that we go off arresting people willy nilly (on balance) is insulting to all of us.
←

agreed, I have never known a Dallas officer or even Denton officer to just up and arrest someone solely on the basis of them being intoxicated. In fact, I have seen them watch people that were fall-down drunk outside the bar and then try to find a friend that can take the person so they dont have to deal with them. Now, if the person is yelling, arguing, fighting, or otherwise causing a distrubance, they will take them to the ground, and I say good. That person deserves it.

The key factor to being arrested is drunk in public is generally the "disorderly" part, and that is fine with me. My problem is with TABC officers who have nothing better to do than to sit and wait for a bartender to screw up based on some stupid obscure rule or TABC setting up stings to TRY and bust otherwise honest bartenders. This, to me, is a waste of time.

The bigger problem here is that no one is expected to be accountable for their own actions anymore. Its not the fault of the 19y/o idiot who borrowed a friends ID to get into a bar, then drank himself into oblivion, then got into a wreck when he left the bar... we instead place blame on the bartender who served the minor (who misrepresented his identity in the first place). If people cant control their alcohol consumption, they dont need to be in a bar in the first place, and should take responsibility for their actions.

MeanMag · March 24, 2006

2 women were arrested a couple weeks ago in a bar in Irving. These women were from flower mound and were in an upscale bar and were not even being loud or anything when they were arrested and made to strip down infront of a male officer in jail. They spent 11 hours in lockup for going to a bar. Tell me how that is 'fair'. They weren't even given a field sobriety test. Watch your local news casts tonight, there is sure to be more fallout.

In this situation, I think the arresting officers are the ones to be bad mouthed. They are the ones with a power complex. They are the ones actively seeking out people. I for one think TABC is a joke, and this "operation last call" is a joke. These officers stepped way over the line, and it has happened other places too. Write your congressmen and women. There really shouldn't be any room for a judgement call to be made in this situation. It should be written in black and white.

MeanGreenTeeth · March 25, 2006

agreed, I have never known a Dallas officer or even Denton officer to just up and arrest someone solely on the basis of them being intoxicated.
←

What you've seen in the past is irrelevant. Multiple cities have, in cooperation with the TABC, been doing just that. The precedent has been set.

meangreendork · March 25, 2006

I'm not worried about actual city law enforcement being abusive with public intoxication arrests. They've got heavier things to take care of than just alcohol busts. As for the TABC officers...I don't know about that.

emmitt01 · March 25, 2006

2 women were arrested a couple weeks ago in a bar in Irving. These women were from flower mound and were in an upscale bar and were not even being loud or anything when they were arrested and made to strip down infront of a male officer in jail. They spent 11 hours in lockup for going to a bar. Tell me how that is 'fair'. They weren't even given a field sobriety test. Watch your local news casts tonight, there is sure to be more fallout.
In this situation, I think the arresting officers are the ones to be bad mouthed. They are the ones with a power complex. They are the ones actively seeking out people. I for one think TABC is a joke, and this "operation last call" is a joke. These officers stepped way over the line, and it has happened other places too. Write your congressmen and women. There really shouldn't be any room for a judgement call to be made in this situation. It should be written in black and white.
←

A few clarifications. THERE IS NO FIELD SOBRIETY TEST NECESSARY. Also, DECENT LEGISLATION IS NOT MADE BY KNEE JERK REACTIONS TO THE BEST OR WORST IMPLEMENTATIONS OF THE LAW. But, if you must be angry, understand how your rage handicaps decent law enforcement officials.