My endurance with this program is waning

March 10, 2006

In the last 5 years we have seen more new facilities added than in the preceding 50 combined. Basketball is mildly respectable, nothing to brag about, but far better than it was throughout the Trilli period. Football, though certainly not outstanding in all aspects, has given us an unprecedented 4 straight bowl games during those years.
Tailgating is also a lot more fun than in earlier seasons, and I feel that many fans are drawn to the games primarily because of the party atmosphere.
Not everything is well with Mean Green athletics, and much is just uncertain, but I also don't see the need for the gloom that has permeated the program throughout the '05-'06 year.
We really just need some good news.
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First, my agreement. Tailgating has added so much to football gameday atmosphere, it's unbelievable. And, you have been at the forefront of that activity and for that, I applaud you. You have done far more than your share.

Now, my disagreements. The Super Pit, built 30 odd years ago, cost more than all of the improvements added in the last five years. Until the softball field is built, those additions in the last five years were just improvements of existing facilities. Admittedly, there is little comparison in the athletic center of today and the previous one. The tennis courts were little more than servicable and the new facility, especially when center court is completed, will totally dwarf those meager facilities. Volleyball in the old Men's Gym wasn't bad but I'm sure that the new facility will be better. Fifty years ago we had a decent golf course and, although it was deterioriating, now we have none. It was also used to train cross country. Football and track are the same. Still, thanks to putting a dorm, dining hall and academic center on the Eagle Point property, we were able to get those improvements accomplished in rather short time.

In basketball, if 11-14 against Division I opponents, with no wins over a Top 100 team is respectable, then we have a different definition for the term. One bowl win in four tries gives us a winning percentage of .250 but that's still better than our OOC record over Dickey's tenure. In my opinion, we need to be competitive with all of the mid-major/non-BCS teams, not just our conference opponents. Otherwise, we are doomed to stay where we are. And, the longer that we stay where we are the harder it will be to ever advance, because others will.

I believe that it was Norval Pohl who said athletics is a window to see (the worth) a university. Our window keeps getting dirtier and dirtier.

meangreanmick · March 10, 2006

You can't measure success of an athletic program in wins over a short term. Nor can you measure the success of an ATHLETIC program by looking at 1 or 2 sports. If you do, there aren't any programs in the country that will measure up over the years. Its just a fact of life, various programs and sports have good on the field years and bad ones.

We are going down hill? RV's promises haven't been upheld? We aren't committed to a D1 SPORTS program (that doesn't mean just football or basketball)?

You want to evaluate a coach based on seasonal success and trends, thats fair. But don't evaluate the direction of an athletic program based on a football team or basketball team having less success on the field this year than last year, thats just assanine.

Look across the highway. None of that was there just a few years ago. That seems like investment and progress to me.

You want more progress faster? Donate more money.

LeanMeanGreen · March 10, 2006

North Texas has never truly shown a committment to winning. that is all.
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This continues in basketball by RV keeping JJ around after ANOTHER sub .500 season vs 1-A teams, with 4 straight first round losses in the conference tournament, losing 8 of their last 10.

The bb program is no better now in Johnny's fifth year, than in his first, so RV, what are you going to do about it?

We're watching & waiting... Make the change... now...

the green rokemi · March 10, 2006

This is what happens when you change the color of our school

PlummMeanGreen · March 14, 2006

First, my agreement. Tailgating has added so much to football gameday atmosphere, it's unbelievable. And, you have been at the forefront of that activity and for that, I applaud you. You have done far more than your share.
Now, my disagreements. The Super Pit, built 30 odd years ago, cost more than all of the improvements added in the last five years. Until the softball field is built, those additions in the last five years were just improvements of existing facilities. Admittedly, there is little comparison in the athletic center of today and the previous one. The tennis courts were little more than servicable and the new facility, especially when center court is completed, will totally dwarf those meager facilities. Volleyball in the old Men's Gym wasn't bad but I'm sure that the new facility will be better. Fifty years ago we had a decent golf course and, although it was deterioriating, now we have none. It was also used to train cross country. Football and track are the same. Still, thanks to putting a dorm, dining hall and academic center on the Eagle Point property, we were able to get those improvements accomplished in rather short time.
In basketball, if 11-14 against Division I opponents, with no wins over a Top 100 team is respectable, then we have a different definition for the term. One bowl win in four tries gives us a winning percentage of .250 but that's still better than our OOC record over Dickey's tenure. In my opinion, we need to be competitive with all of the mid-major/non-BCS teams, not just our conference opponents. Otherwise, we are doomed to stay where we are. And, the longer that we stay where we are the harder it will be to ever advance, because others will.
I believe that it was Norval Pohl who said athletics is a window to see (the worth) a university. Our window keeps getting dirtier and dirtier.
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I like NT80's thread on San Jose's new era. UNT needs to rid itself of its era's, that is, uh, "errors" on our campus and those who keep giving their on-campus constituencies contract extensions and that so we can keep getting what we have been getting? Having above .500 producing coaches in Mean Green Country would be a welcome return in Denton, Texas, America.

Sorry, folks, but shooting (SBC) fish in a barrell to get to bowl games is not what I think our progressive thinking UNT founding fathers had in mind for Mean Green football. If beating #90 thru #117 (or is it now 123 D1-A members as reported in NT80's San Jose thread article) to win a league championship and then play the 4'th place CUSA football team is what churns your butter, then "don't worry--get happy" you've got exactly what you want. All you need is a slice of Mrs. Baird's bread.

BUT................as Gray Eagle said and I quote: "..... the longer that we stay where we are the harder it will be to ever advance, because others will." Gray Eagle has watched MG football since the 1940's and has the respect of many on this board and beyond. He also always seems to be right with his perceptions of what is going on in Mean Green Country and what "should" happen in MG Country. Some on the NT BOR's probably could gain from his 6 plus decades of knowledge and wisdom when it comes to NT athletics.

I think last Fall was just one of the sign of the times of things to come, but from now on, UNT will no longer have the distinct advantage of being king of the hill of a newly formed football conference as the SBC was in 1991 and a newly formed league of several schools only rencently out of 1-AA and had never had a prior history of a NCAA Division One co-existence as UNT had before we took our 12 year sabbatical in 1-AA from 1982 thru 1994.

MEET THE FOCKERS? And now according to some of you who have emailed or phoned me, it seems some on this board have been made part of the, uh, infamous "Focker Family" by UNT's football coaches version of, uh, "Mr. Radio Man' or "Mr. NT Public Relations Extraordinaire"? Truly, is it true that he called some of us, uh, "fockers?" How damn funny that is.

Well now lets just hold the board, though. Let some of us tell you about who the real "Focker" is up in Denton and the one who has this football program on a record-breaking quest of his own self-serving version of so-called success (without any notable OOC wins of late) and the real Mr. Focker who only gets to stay around Denton (mostly) because he kisses up to the UNT Board of Regent's chairman. What else could it be for one who has so many losses under .500 in almost a decade as head football coach at UNT? Personality for crissakes'? Well, how's your family these days?

Of course, only worse than the aforementioned is that that very same NT BOR chairman even allows such a "kiss up" to occur. Not exactly what most NT Exes or alums have in mind for the kind of unbias we expect from a one who has been given that role from an appointment by the Govenor of Texas and hardly what most of our NT constituency really wants to see from the position of the NT BOR's chairman.

MEET THE FOCKERS? Yet, let's make sure the real member of NT's version of the Focker Family stands up, gets identified and further gets exposed as a D1-A "would be" head football coach for all his worth and what even has a hardy handful of you (who I guess have some semblance of personal agendas relating to NT athletics) are being suckered into. NOTE: STILL.............a scrutinizing look in your most recent edition of the UNT football media guide of those schools (some just out of 1-AA and some new members of the SBC still seeking to get out of that level I presume); anyway, merely observe as to who we have lost to in even our bowl years would speak pretty loud and clear to those who would only dare to look and then admit to what they have read in black and white print.

Many will still bide time while waiting for some real reasons (once again) to celebrate and something positive to hang our hats on because of what is happening in Mean Green Country. Just hope some of these recent proposed contract extensions are not approved by all our clear thinking members of the UNT Board of Regents. I know many of us would like to think the majority of that group would meet such a criteria.

After all, they (UNT Board members), too, I'm sure would like to leave their own mark or lasting (positive) legacies for the years they served as members on that UNT board for what Norval Pohl (and other past NT presidents) have described Mean Green athletics as the picture window for what many judge our university. AND..........from what other Texas D1-A schools are spending on their athletic programs, I suppose most on this board would even agree that there really must be something to that theory.

Meet the Fockers is really a funny movie, though, but I just wish some of the "sad but true" scenes weren't presently being played out in Mean Green Country. So............I will still take many of you on this message board's word that.........."this too shall pass?" Many of us are waiting for such a passage just like we would a long over-due bowel movement. (Can I say that, Harry)?

Edited March 14, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

TIgreen01 · March 14, 2006

You can't measure success of an athletic program in wins over a short term. Nor can you measure the success of an ATHLETIC program by looking at 1 or 2 sports. If you do, there aren't any programs in the country that will measure up over the years. Its just a fact of life, various programs and sports have good on the field years and bad ones.
We are going down hill? RV's promises haven't been upheld? We aren't committed to a D1 SPORTS program (that doesn't mean just football or basketball)?
You want to evaluate a coach based on seasonal success and trends, thats fair. But don't evaluate the direction of an athletic program based on a football team or basketball team having less success on the field this year than last year, thats just assanine.
Look across the highway. None of that was there just a few years ago. That seems like investment and progress to me.
You want more progress faster? Donate more money.
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Good post.

It seems that everyone is freaking out b/c our young football team lost a bunch of games last year and our bball had another bad SB tournament. To those who think that JJ should be fired (I was in that group before this last season), put yourself in RV's shoes and ask yourself this question, "How do you fire the head bball coach when he has cemented a top 30 recruiting class for next year?" Seriously?! If that doesn't buy the man at least one more year, I don't know what to tell you.

Oh, and to untbowler who said, "$$$ does not buy wins"---pull your head up out of the sand and look around. Not many teams, with budgets comparable to UNT, are able to win enough games to improve their status in the NCAA world. $$$ buys coaches, which buys you more wins, which buys you better players--which buys you more wins, etc, etc....IF UNT can continue the trend that we are on (improving attendance and # of season ticket holders), THAT will get us more $$$, among other things.

Edited March 14, 2006 by TIgreen01

untbowler · March 14, 2006

say what you will but look at Nevada, Western Kentucky (yes they are 1-AA) look at B-Ball, The MVC schools.

There are a ton of schools with lower budgets that do much better than UNT, they may not be BCS but they are at the top of their league.

As for recruiting classes we have heard the same song and dance for the last 5 years, this recruiting class will be better, but every year it is the same.

Guess b/c I am not the lemming following the group my head is in the sand.

eulesseagle · March 14, 2006

IMHO, since the departure of NTSU President "Jitter" Nolan in the 70's North Texas has lost its inititive to develop and keep a first class athletic program at North Texas. Sure, we had some brief moments in BB and in FB, that we can all point to, but keeping the "momentum" and I stress "momentum" has always taken a back burner.

We have seen NT slip into D-1AA and try to revive itself with D-1A.

We have seen the BOR give us two sub-standard FB coaches who can not recruit, win or put North Texas in an arena to compete with anyone other than the revival of the SLC school where we once emerged. This has left us #107 out of 117 D-1A schools and probably #140 if you combine D-1A and D-1AA. That does not even put us in the top 20 of D-1AA programs.

We keep getting the carrot thrown to us by having the AD and BOR saying, "Wait 'till next year."

We have seen Boise State turn around their program

We are seeing SDSU commiting to excellence with their FB program.

We are seeing FIU or FAU building stadiums and getting "quality" coaching talent to build their program with coaches who were once "major" program talent come into their programs.

Some of you say that we need to keep playing major BCS talent to get the players we need to come to North Texas......BALONEY.....just look at who we have played in the last 10 years and look at our dismal OOC record......now ask me if that has brought us better talent and more wins.!!!!

Until there is commitment from the TOP the NT BOR and AD will keep us in the Dante's Inferno of college athletics.

Eagle1855 · March 14, 2006

Some of you say that we need to keep playing major BCS talent to get the players we need to come to North Texas......BALONEY.....just look at who we have played in the last 10 years and look at our dismal OOC record......now ask me if that has brought us better talent and more wins.!!!!
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you should just put this part in your signature line, as it seems that every single one of your posts includes your campaign to stop playing BCS teams. Problem is, your big 12 model for success based on KState doesnt work because we play a powder puff conference slate. If we need 1AA games to take a break from our "brutal" conference schedule, we should probably just mail it in altogether

the problem isnt who we play (from a SOS standpoint), the problem is how prepared (or not prepared) our players are for those games. last years schedule was great. we should have been competitive in all but 1 or 2 of those games

Edited March 14, 2006 by Eagle1855

TIgreen01 · March 14, 2006

say what you will but look at Nevada, Western Kentucky (yes they are 1-AA) look at B-Ball, The MVC schools.
There are a ton of schools with lower budgets that do much better than UNT, they may not be BCS but they are at the top of their league.
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The whiners on this board are not complaining about staying at the top of our league. Most are complaining that we're not moving UP and OUT of the Sun Belt. How many schools can you name that have done well enough with a tiny budget to do that?? Anyone outside the state of Florida?

As for recruiting classes we have heard the same song and dance for the last 5 years, this recruiting class will be better, but every year it is the same.
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?? When, in the last 5 years, have we ever had a top 30 bball recruiting class? We haven't. There's no song and dance to this one...this will be the best recruiting class that NT has seen since I've been watching the program (mid-90's on). To me, that's a big victory for the coaching staff.

eulesseagle · March 14, 2006

Eagle1855-

We will have to agree to disagree. I respect your view point but what the BOR/AD et. al are doing is not working .... I have never advocated not playing any more BSC schools but advocate playing an easier schedule to boost our W-L record. If the BOR/AD are not willing to "commit" NT into a more competitive realm of play then why should we be "body bags" for other programs??

If the BOR/AD is complacently content to keep NT in its current status of the "Bottom 10" of D-1A athletics then, "why not play an easier schedule?"

If the BOR/AD is complacently content to keep sub-standard coaches for 8,9,10,11,12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 years with losing records why should NT be "body bags??"

If this whole political inferno that we are in is content to keep NT where it is then "Why not play an easier schedule for our viewing entertainment" so we can bring teams in that we can beat the crap out of???"

Evidently, some of the problem is not with our current coaching staff.....the real problem lies in the commitment of the BOR/AD to either move our program forward or keep it where it is......in Dante's Inferno!! What it looks like to me the BOR/AD is complacently content!!

GrandGreen · March 14, 2006

It seems that everyone is freaking out b/c our young football team lost a bunch of games last year and our bball had another bad SB tournament. To those who think that JJ should be fired (I was in that group before this last season), put yourself in RV's shoes and ask yourself this question, "How do you fire the head bball coach when he has cemented a top 30 recruiting class for next year?" Seriously?! If that doesn't buy the man at least one more year, I don't know what to tell you.

Do you actually believe that NT class is a top 30? I think it could end up to be JJ best, but top 30. A very promising transfer in Woodson, but he did not exactly tear it up in his first two years. A class 2a guard who had great numbers against questionable competition but was injured most of the year. A good jc point guard in Bell, but not exactly a nationally rated recruit. A 6'10 jc center that doesn't start and another 6'8 jc player who basically has not played in 2 years. At this time I doubt if this class would be rated in the top half of the Belt much less a top 30.

Oh, and to untbowler who said, "$$$ does not buy wins"---pull your head up out of the sand and look around. Not many teams, with budgets comparable to UNT, are able to win enough games to improve their status in the NCAA world. $$$ buys coaches, which buys you more wins, which buys you better players--which buys you more wins, etc, etc....IF UNT can continue the trend that we are on (improving attendance and # of season ticket holders), THAT will get us more $$$, among other things.

Do you really think that NT is going to continue to grow attendance without improving the product? Money is important but so is making the right decisions.

NT is in a self imposed mess at present with long term contracts given to the AD and fb head coach which made little sense at the time and a lot less now. We will be lucky if the AD doesn't continue this trend with rewarding two unsuccessful basketball coaches with new contracts. You are definitely correct in that it is very difficult to breakout in athletics from the bottom tier and the odds are definitely stacked against NT. However, IMO it is very unlikely that continuing along the current path is going to be effective; changes need to be made.

untbowler · March 14, 2006

Here is an answer regarding recruiting classes.

They do not mean **** if there is not a coach around who can coach them.

I have seen nothing from JJ that shows he is the man to break us into the Top 200 much less the Top 100 teams in the nation. Slinker has some many talented players come thru and their talent was wasted.

What has DD done in recruiting outside of the Class with Kassell, Booger, etc..

Outside of Soccer there is not much to cheer about in UNT athletics. We have head coaches in positions when they are better suited being an assistant.

Everyone keeps throwing the facilities as to why we should be looking up for athletics, facilities can only do so much, then the gold goes away and we are left with the same messy administration from the past.

I was a huge supporter of RV when he came in and I still support him but for whatever reason not much is getting done in order to turn the whole Athletic Program around, not just Major Sports.

Edited March 14, 2006 by untbowler

untbowler · March 14, 2006

NFM

Edited March 14, 2006 by untbowler

DeepGreen · March 14, 2006

Here is an answer regarding recruiting classes.
They do not mean **** if there is not a coach around who can coach them.
I have seen nothing from JJ that shows he is the man to break us into the Top 200 much less the Top 100 teams in the nation. Slinker has some many talented players come thru and their talent was wasted.
What has DD done in recruiting outside of the Class with Kassell, Booger, etc..
Outside of Soccer there is not much to cheer about in UNT athletics. We have head coaches in positions when they are better suited being an assistant.
Everyone keeps throwing the facilities as to why we should be looking up for athletics, facilities can only do so much, then the gold goes away and we are left with the same messy administration from the past.
I was a huge supporter of RV when he came in and I still support him but for whatever reason not much is getting done in order to turn the whole Athletic Program around, not just Major Sports.
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Good stuff untbowler. As much as I love football and basketball, there are other sports at NT that are suffering. Tennis anyone? The gals lost yesterday to a 1-8 FAU team. Not much of a team at all. And the tennis coach has never held a head coaching job until NT came along? What's up with that?

Looks like we find the cheapest priced coaches and put them in a HC position. No matter they don't have the experience.

Getting more frustrated with each loss, regardless of the sport.

TIgreen01 · March 14, 2006

Do you actually believe that NT class is a top 30? I think it could end up to be JJ best, but top 30. A very promising transfer in Woodson, but he did not exactly tear it up in his first two years. A class 2a guard who had great numbers against questionable competition but was injured most of the year. A good jc point guard in Bell, but not exactly a nationally rated recruit. A 6'10 jc center that doesn't start and another 6'8 jc player who basically has not played in 2 years. At this time I doubt if this class would be rated in the top half of the Belt much less a top 30.
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It doesn't matter what I think...that's what the class was rated by several recruiting services. Now whether or not JJ can coach them (untbowler's comment)...I tend to question that as well--in one of my earlier posts I said I was in the camp that thought he should already be gone), I don't know. But the fact is, he finally recruited some highly rated talent---so what do we have to lose if we let him coach them for a year?

Do you really think that NT is going to continue to grow attendance without improving the product? Money is important but so is making the right decisions.
NT is in a self imposed mess at present with long term contracts given to the AD and fb head coach which made little sense at the time and a lot less now. We will be lucky if the AD doesn't continue this trend with rewarding two unsuccessful basketball coaches with new contracts. You are definitely correct in that it is very difficult to breakout in athletics from the bottom tier and the odds are definitely stacked against NT. However, IMO it is very unlikely that continuing along the current path is going to be effective; changes need to be made.
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Yes, as a matter of fact, I do think that attendance would continue to grow. I don't know many fans who ever liked watching Dickey-ball until we started winning in 2001. I hated it. But 7,8,9 win seasons turn heads and get people interested. It's really just that simple. Win games and build a winning tradition and attendance will follow. Now, whether or not a high flying coach and offense would turn it around quicker, I don't know. I just know what I've seen with my own eyes for the last 5 years.....winning is all that matters---looking pretty doing it, does not.

GrandGreen · March 14, 2006

It doesn't matter what I think...that's what the class was rated by several recruiting services. Now whether or not JJ can coach them (untbowler's comment)...I tend to question that as well--in one of my earlier posts I said I was in the camp that thought he should already be gone), I don't know. But the fact is, he finally recruited some highly rated talent---so what do we have to lose if we let him coach them for a year?
Actually there was one recruiting service that rated this class high and that was a year ago before the last season played out. What recruits do you think would be rated high at this point? Bell would be the only recruit imo that would even be looked at by a top 100 program (excluding Wooden who was actually in last year's class).
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do think that attendance would continue to grow. I don't know many fans who ever liked watching Dickey-ball until we started winning in 2001. I hated it. But 7,8,9 win seasons turn heads and get people interested. It's really just that simple. Win games and build a winning tradition and attendance will follow. Now, whether or not a high flying coach and offense would turn it around quicker, I don't know. I just know what I've seen with my own eyes for the last 5 years.....winning is all that matters---looking pretty doing it, does not.
That a heck of an assumption you have made, attendance will grow if NT has winning seasons. If you believe DD will turn it around and start winning oc games as well as the Belt, then you should be satisfied.

TIgreen01 · March 14, 2006

That a heck of an assumption you have made, attendance will grow if NT has winning seasons. If you believe DD will turn it around and start winning oc games as well as the Belt, then you should be satisfied.
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See, this whole "satisfied" argument has been used to death on this board. It's a bunch of sh!t. I would dare say that everyone, on the board, would love to see us playing in a BCS bowl every year. Everyone here loves UNT. Everyone (maybe a few trolls). Why else would they pour over these boards everyday and post 1000+ posts?? Maybe you are confused and think you are arguing with some of these lurkers/trolls, but I am not one. I have missed one home game since 1998...but then, I live close enough to drive to every game. I hate making the drive home after a loss. My family hates riding with me after a loss. I venture to guess that EVERYONE on the board is the same way! Sorry for the rant, but we need to seriously put to bed this talk of people being "satisfied"....

That said, I've seen most every game in DD's tenure and never have really cared for our style of play....I like the defense, but the offense is harder to watch than Slocum-ball. Still, it's hard to argue with success....and until last year DD-ball was working. You cannot argue that attendance has grown every year since 2001. We are not winning (or even being competitive) OOC games, but we have winning records and bowl games to celebrate....and people notice. We got on the cover of the USA Today last year. I understand the concern over becoming lazy and letting this last success slip by us without parlaying it to a better conference, but I just think everyone needs to take a deep breath.

Monkeypox · March 15, 2006

Still, it's hard to argue with success....and until last year DD-ball was working. You cannot argue that attendance has grown every year since 2001. We are not winning (or even being competitive) OOC games, but we have winning records and bowl games to celebrate....and people notice. We got on the cover of the USA Today last year. I understand the concern over becoming lazy and letting this last success slip by us without parlaying it to a better conference, but I just think everyone needs to take a deep breath.
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Actually, you can. We averaged:

2001 - 15,306

2002 - 15,260

2003 - 18,694

2004 - 15,184

2005 - 16,446

So the year where we had a huge spike was 2003, the year after we actually WON the bowl game. Maintaining the status quo should put us at about 20,000 average in attendance by 2022.

This is not success.

TIgreen01 · March 15, 2006

Actually, you can. We averaged:
2001 - 15,306
2002 - 15,260
2003 - 18,694
2004 - 15,184
2005 - 16,446
So the year where we had a huge spike was 2003, the year after we actually WON the bowl game. Maintaining the status quo should put us at about 20,000 average in attendance by 2022.
This is not success.
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Crap! 2003 can be explained by the BU game....what happened in 2004?...seems like we did decent that year.....and last year, we were on pace to finish with great attendance until the Thanksgiving weekend game. Anyone have access to season ticket holder numbers?