JJ needs to go; men lose to MTSU at home

[LoveMG]

Hey man, reread what i said... I am not saying hold on to the guy.

My point is that we can't keep giving him an extra year.  This was his extra year to prove worthy of taking us in a direction.

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Sorry, I meant to reply to EagleMBA's quote on your post about giving another year to JJ.

[EagleMBA]

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets' nest, guys. Obviously, there is some strong sentiment on here for going in a new coaching direction. I think JJ runs a good program and is trying to get the right mix in here to get the results he and we want. Building a program can be like turning an oil tanker unless you have the available scholarships and can recruit a couple of real studs early in the process. We can debate how far you think this tanker has turned, but I would throw out something in the 30 to 40 degree range so far. Starting over means a new coach who wants time to find "his" players and develop them ... might take another five years of running in place.

JJ should get another year; the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know. And while I'm throwing out the cliches, here's another (but true) one ...

my father taught me to measure twice before cutting.

[Coffee and TV]

Well, Synder's out of Mizzou. I think someone needs a 2nd chance, and the Sun Belt is a good place to start.

[eaglehoney]

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets' nest, guys.  Obviously, there is some strong sentiment on here for going in a new coaching direction.  I think JJ runs a good program and is trying to get the right mix in here to get the results he and we want.  Building a program can be like turning an oil tanker unless you have the available scholarships and can recruit a couple of real studs early in the process.  We can debate how far you think this tanker has turned, but I would throw out something in the 30 to 40 degree range so far.  Starting over means a new coach who wants time to find "his" players and develop them ... might take another five years of running in place. 

JJ should get another year; the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.  And while I'm throwing out the cliches, here's another (but true) one ...

my father taught me to measure twice before cutting.

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Currently Justin Barnett is the only player on the roster that isn't "JJ's" player. If you think about it he (JJ) came in with some very talented players on the floor. Kenneth Mangrum, Chris Davis, Jermaine Green, Lee Green, Terrence White, Will Smith, and Leonard Hopkins. All those young men were very talented and under the right leadership would have been a great basketball unit.

Your opinion is yours and it is very valid and respectable. No matter how great of a guy JJ may be, being a good guy isn't going to make us a winning team. From watching all the coaches on the court and off the court my opinion is Charlie Leonard could get the job done. He believes in fundamentals, he believes in team basketball, and the players in my opinion hold the highest level of respect for him.

[OldTimer]

The Middle Tenn game was close. It certaintly would have helped if NT's best player was healthy.

"What may affect the Mean Green is the health of Kendrick Davis. The junior shooting guard missed most of the first half against MTSU with a hand injury before returning. Davis, who leads UNT with an average of 17.0 points per game, finished with nine against MTSU and did not play in the final three minutes of the game." quote was from todays DRC article posted separately.

Is that the coaches fault?

Edited February 11, 2006 by OldTimer

[Zeke]

Is that the coaches fault?

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No, but leaving players in after they continuously grab the ball and heave it up without giving any thought to offense IS the coaches fault.

[SUMG]

The Middle Tenn game was close.  It certaintly would have helped if NT's best player was healthy.

"What may affect the Mean Green is the health of Kendrick Davis. The junior shooting guard missed most of the first half against MTSU with a hand injury before returning. Davis, who leads UNT with an average of 17.0 points per game, finished with nine against MTSU and did not play in the final three minutes of the game."  quote was from todays DRC article posted separately.

Is that the coaches fault?

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Teams deal with injuries all the time, Old Timer.

Maybe you've forgotten, but UNO beat us in Denton without two of their best players (Bo McCaleb and one other key player who was hurt--his name escapes me). Also, South Bama drilled us, and they were without Richard Law, one of their best players.

We at least had Davis for part of our game.

[EagleMBA]

I have to agree with eaglehoney about the talent. Those men named were a delight to watch represent us. I didn't mean to imply that JJ hasn't had time to recruit "his" players; what I was saying is that a new coach will want time to recruit "HIS" players. The implication was that this would drag out the timeline for a return to respectability for the program. Now if you think that JJ will not be able to recruit the kind of players needed for UNT to be competitive, and that he has arguably had enough time to do so if he is going to, then you are ready to pull the plug. Obviously, some on this board are already to that point.

[meangreen11]

I don't think that there is much that can be done because I think we gave JJ an extension after last season for 3-4 years. I am not certain if it is 3 or 4 as I have asked for clarification on that in another post. Anyway let's suport Johnny as he will get things turned around next year. He has a big guy coming in that will help.

The Middle Tenn game was close.  It certaintly would have helped if NT's best player was healthy.

"What may affect the Mean Green is the health of Kendrick Davis. The junior shooting guard missed most of the first half against MTSU with a hand injury before returning. Davis, who leads UNT with an average of 17.0 points per game, finished with nine against MTSU and did not play in the final three minutes of the game."  quote was from todays DRC article posted separately.

Is that the coaches fault?

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[MeanGreenBuzz]

The only thing I can say to this thread is WTF? Johnny has improved the team and the talent every year since he has been here. You can't take the mess that Tic Vrilli left and turn it around over night. Look at the talent we have in the yonger guys this season. Hell look at who is coming in next year. You have Keith Wooden who is an incredible talent and you have a guy in HS that is scoring over 75% of his teams points in alot of their games. This team seems to lack finishing ability as alot of their games have come down to the last 3 minuted and this season could be totally different, 2 UNO, 1 MTSU, 1 Houston, 1 aTm and this team could be 17-5. I have been critical of how some of JJs teams seem to break down and are undisciplined at times, but the team fielded this year is easily better than the teams fielded in the last 10 years and next years team will be better than this years team. Now if his teams had taken steps backwards or leaps as this years FB team has I could understand the criticism, but each years team has been better than the last and each year the talent improves.

[GrandGreen]

The only thing I can say to this thread is WTF?  Johnny has improved the team and the talent every year since he has been here.  You can't take the mess that Tic Vrilli left and turn it around over night.  Look at the talent we have in the yonger guys this season.  Hell look at who is coming in next year.  You have Keith Wooden who is an incredible talent and you have a guy in HS that is scoring over 75% of his teams points in alot of their games.  This team seems to lack finishing ability as alot of their games have come down to the last 3 minuted and this season could be totally different, 2 UNO, 1 MTSU, 1 Houston, 1 aTm and this team could be 17-5.  I have been critical of how some of JJs teams seem to break down and are undisciplined at times, but the team fielded this year is easily better than the teams fielded in the last 10 years and next years team will be better than this years team.  Now if his teams had taken steps backwards or leaps as this years FB team has I could understand the criticism, but each years team has been better than the last and each year the talent improves.

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Talk about green color glasses, take away the three non-division 1 wins and 1 over new school UTPB and the record would be? Also better hope for a major comeback miracle as NT is only behind WKU 28-53 at half.

[CMJ]

I have been a big JJ supporter by and large.

But this season is making me really wonder.

[Guest e-bone]

I too have seen this team get more talented each year and play more competitive basketball... at the beginning of the season. The results are still the same though and there is no reason to believe things will change now. I thought this season was the season the team would get over the hump, but yet again around midway through the season everything has fallen apart. JJ will probably get another year, but even with the seemingly increasing talent level it's hard not to wonder when, not if, the team will crater next season as well.

Here's to hoping I'm wrong.

[Cooley]

Sometimes it may take 5 years

[UNT90]

Sometimes it may take 5 years

Don't think JJ had an NBA talent on his roster when he took over.

Don't think JJ's first team was a consensus COACHES' pick to win the Sun Belt West.

Don't think JJ's first team was picked by a national publication as a mid-major to watch.

And I don't think JJ's first team lost to a D2 school, much less on the biggest non-postseason stage of the program's existence.

Maybe you weren't meaning to compare to Benford, but if your were, apples and planets.

Edited April 16, 2014 by UNT90

[KRAM1]

This thread just makes me smile. HOF worthy. I don't think I have laughed this much in a long time.

Can't believe Cooley dug this up, but great flu he did...the comic relief is awesome!

[Cooley]

Not a Benford fan. Just pointing out that folks (including me) were calling for JJ's head after 5 years. (and for good reason)

For the record, Chris Davis (inherited by JJ) was a more productive player than Tony Mitchell. Davis was just as good in high school as Tony was at Pinkston. Mitchell was not the player most experts predicted him to be. He is an NBA project than an NBA player. Hopefully, he will turn out to be a Gerald Green (Most improved player) after bouncing around the league for a number of years.

Benford did have some academic issues and injuries his first year.

Go back and read the posts. The same issues folks complain about Benford are somewhat similar to complaints about JJ. Could he coach?

I am not comparing coaches as much as their situation. There was no excuse for JJ's record his first 5 years. I was also disappointed in his early recruiting.

So, in hindsight, it may take 5 years. (It shouldn't!)

[Censored by Laurie]

One replaced a coach who was 20-87.

The other replaced a coach who was 190-146...127-68 over the last six years.

If this is your only effort at justification for retaining Benford, how about you provide a bit of context. Otherwise it just looks stupid.

[Andrew]

One replaced a coach who was 20-87.

The other replaced a coach who was 190-146...127-68 over the last six years.

If this is your only effort at justification for retaining Benford, how about you provide a bit of context. Otherwise it just looks stupid.

So with this logic then every coach no matter what should be better then the one he has replaced. So trillion should have been better right? Which would had out pressure on JJ to be better his first 5 years. You really make zero sense man. Not trying to justify Benford's record but someone acting as if a coaches previous record should be an indicator of future success is quite foolish. We should have a league full of undefeated coaches. Because no one would inherit terrible teams and everyone would always get better...

[CMJ]

JJ got slack after his first season because it was such a large turnaround. After that we sorta muddled around for a few seasons. But, if he hadn't won the SBC tournament in 2007, his seat was gonna get very warm as I think this thread showed.

Oddly, his early teams often started strong and faded down the stretch. In time, his teams mostly did the opposite.

Edited April 16, 2014 by CMJ

[meangreenacct]

So with this logic then every coach no matter what should be better then the one he has replaced. So trillion should have been better right? Which would had out pressure on JJ to be better his first 5 years. You really make zero sense man. Not trying to justify Benford's record but someone acting as if a coaches previous record should be an indicator of future success is quite foolish. We should have a league full of undefeated coaches. Because no one would inherit terrible teams and everyone would always get better...

This is serious?

[Censored by Laurie]

This is serious?

apparently.

[CMJ]

apparently.

[Censored by Laurie]

So with this logic then every coach no matter what should be better then the one he has replaced. So trillion should have been better right? Which would had out pressure on JJ to be better his first 5 years. You really make zero sense man. Not trying to justify Benford's record but someone acting as if a coaches previous record should be an indicator of future success is quite foolish. We should have a league full of undefeated coaches. Because no one would inherit terrible teams and everyone would always get better...

The last thing you should ever do is cast judgement on anyone else's logic.

I'll try and use small words for you. One coach raised a program...the other coach is killing one.

At the very least the person hired to replace JJ should've had the bar set at status quo. Instead, a program that was at the very least thought to be heading in the right direction has suffered 2 straight losing seasons, scheduled enough lower-division teams to need a NCAA waiver to prevent a forfeit, seen 6 players in 2 off-seasons "leave" the program, had one freshman he recruited, who has since left, actually touch the floor and has likely violated NCAA rules and will cost us probation in the not too distant future.

[Andrew]

This is serious?

I'm only going off of what he typed. He made the statement that if you inherit a better team you should improve on it (not do worse). Correct? He then went on to day that this is expected (so no coach should ever do worse then the previous one... At least in his world). And somehow that makes sense to you? It does not compute on this end and nor does it compute with my buddies. No one is arguing Benford should not have done better, but to use the argument that a coach should always improve on the success from another is very bold. And to be honest impossible to have 100% of the time. Obviously inheriting a team with a good record improves your chances of having a good season it does not meant that you will. So why should it be expected?

I liked Trilli, I liked JJ, and I like Benford. I have enjoyed going to games under all three coaches. If we have a new coach next season I will still enjoy going to game regardless of the record. I also will not make a judgement on his success rate based on what Benford left...

Edited April 16, 2014 by Andrew