Vito: Jury still out on UNT recruiting

[UNTLifer]

Acturally, I believe that we only signed one DB last year, Kartey Agbottah.  We did sign some athletes, which because of their speed and athleticism we intend to make defensive backs. 

We have no experience at corner.  Even Loren has never played corner.  He said that he has always played safety but is willing to try corner.  To our chagrin, Covington and Branch played almost the entire time at the corners without relief.  Finally, they put Dominique Green in for a little experience.  We've been guilty of doing the same thing with offensive  linemen....playing the same five and having a ton of inexperience when the starter graduates.  The same has been true with quarterbacks.

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The DB's we signed last year were

Kartey Agbottah

Antione Bush (signed as an athlete, but moved to DB)

Desmon Chatman (signed as a RB, but moved to DB)

Dominique Green

Arthur Stubblefield (signed as a RB, but moved to DB)

Steve Warren (signed as a QB but moved to Safety)

Korey Washington (signed as a QB but moved to DB)

Gary Oubre

Aaron Weathers

Other young, Sophmores in 05', DB's on the team

Roderick Cotton

Devin Cox

Cliff Higgs

Saul McCoy

Brian Nelson

Edited February 7, 2006 by UNTLifer

[PlummMeanGreen]

Naturally, I hate to keep beating my head against the wall on this topic but:

1.  Four SBC bowl appearances has not yielded us better talent.  No players that made the Area 51 roster (area's best 50 in the DFW area)....heck, NMSU, who won ZERO games last year picked up 2 HS recruits from that list.  Now that is sales!!

2.  It still takes a "salesman" to sell this program and that, IMHO, is not being done.  DD may be the greatest guy to hang with fishing and having a brewski but his salesmanship is lacking.  Other Mid-Major programs that win 4 championships, in their respective conferences, get better talent.  Have you ever thought, "hummmmm.....why can not UNT do that or why did they not take advantage of those specific circumstances??"  IMHO, again, why can NMSU out recruit UNT  in DD and RF's own back yard?? That personally disturbs me.  The NMSU coach, Hal Mumme,  may have won ZERO games last year, in his first year, but evidently

the man knows how to "sell" a program.

3.  Anyone else discouraged that UNT is ranked #110 of 117 D-1A programs (even after winning the SBC 4 out of the last 5 years)??  Our ranking is obviously lower if you place all the D-1AA programs that are better than us!!  How does that make you feel???  That would put us about #125-140 in the country.

4. If DD reverts to "DD Ball" again this year we may endeavor to another 2005 season.  If DD reinvents himself into an "Alpha Male" and goes to a "wide open" offense then we should have an interesting year.  Hopefully, all the redshirt talent that Coach Dickey has been stockpiling will come through. 

5.  If 2006 ends up like 2005 are the ardent DD supporters willing to wait "one more year" for him to pull us out of an inverted tail spin before we truely "crash-burn & die?"  Can you imagine how many years it will take to recover from what is currently happening to OUR program?? 

6.  We know what the National Champions will do to us, we know that Tulsa and La Tech hung over 50 on us last year and we play them again this year. 

7.  UNT is capable of having a similar program to TCU....why can't we??  What does Coach Patterson do that Coach Dickey does not??  Coach Bennett is putting together a much improved program at SMU, IMHO.  Where does that leave us??  Anyone else disturbed what is going on and how long it will take to recover or is everyone else complacently content to waller as #110 of 117 and that will put us in ESPN's Bottom 10. 

8.  Win 2/4 OOC games, win the SBC and beat the #4 CUSA team to keep Coach Dickey....anything less.........then the administration should give the alum the personal repect to find a head coach that is capable to restore the pride we once knew.

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Many valid points, eulesseagle...

[SilverEagle]

Many valid points, eulesseagle...

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A FOUR WORD POST?!?!..

[MeanGreenPOP]

A few clues for Vito

Your recruiting class may not be so great if:

1.  You do not sign any player from the DFW or FWST area best lists

2.  You do not sign any player from any Texas state 100 lists

3.  You do not sign your target QB even though he does not get another 1a offer

4.  You lose both running back commits, one to a 1aa program and one to a rare Belt program that NT actually beat last year

5.  You rank near the bottom in all recruiting reviews

6.  You promote your 1 Texas all state player and not mention it was only honorable mention

7.  Your class is full of recruits labeled “steals”

8.  Your head coach has to explain how good this class even though there were no name players signed

9. You still have five ships to give

10.  Your most loyal fans are not concerned because you can only evaluate a class once they have completed their playing careers.   Lets get on with that discussion of how good that class of 2001 was.

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The 5 ships to give kind of ticks me off a little...We didn't send a bunch of film out on Brent because Duke was so high on getting him...then he tell us there is not enough ships late in the recruiting season...we're not bitter because he like's it up at Greeley(and only 5% of high School football players get full rides so we are definately blessed to have 2 boys with full ships) but he wanted to be with his Brother...it seems funny that he wasn't higher ln the NT depth chart when we find out he was very high on OU's depth chart and wanted him to walk on at OU and TU.

Edited February 8, 2006 by MeanGreenPOP

[TIgreen01]

It seems to me that our 2000 & 2001 recruiting classes were not highly ranked by the recruiting services. Anybody still have the Dave Campbell's mag from 2 years ago?....they rank all the Texas D1 schools classes once they graduate, but they also show the ranking they received back when they were initially recruited....I know that last year's mag had our 2001 class near the bottom in Texas--coming into school, but finished 2nd or 3rd (don't have the mag infront of me)....seems like 2000 was the same. Everyone just forget that Booger wasn't even a highly thought of recuit???....he was on the all-state teams and made the DMN defensive POY, but nobody but us wanted him....that turned out pretty good.

I guess I just don't see why this class is freaking everyone out so much. It was obvious (at all but one of our home games) that teams could run right up the middle of our defense. We lost the last 2 home games after being tied or having the lead midway through the 4th quarter only to watch the defense give up LONG drives (primarily on running plays) to lose the game. So, the coaching staff signs 8 dlineman....2 of which make their respective all-state teams. Seems to me they did the OBVIOUS thing....bring in help for the defensive line.

Edited February 8, 2006 by TIgreen01

[LongJim]

It seems to me that our 2000 & 2001 recruiting classes were not highly ranked by the recruiting services.  Anybody still have the Dave Campbell's mag from 2 years ago?....they rank all the Texas D1 schools classes once they graduate, but they also show the ranking they received back when they were initially recruited....I know that last year's mag had our 2001 class near the bottom in Texas--coming into school, but finished 2nd or 3rd (don't have the mag infront of me)....seems like 2000 was the same.  Everyone just forget that Booger wasn't even a highly thought of recuit???....he was on the all-state teams and made the DMN defensive POY, but nobody but us wanted him....that turned out pretty good.

I guess I just don't see why this class is freaking everyone out so much.  It was obvious (at all but one of our home games) that teams could run right up the middle of our defense.  We lost the last 2 home games after being tied or having the lead midway through the 4th quarter only to watch the defense give up LONG drives (primarily on running plays) to lose the game.  So, the coaching staff signs 8 dlineman....2 of which make their respective all-state teams.  Seems to me they did the OBVIOUS thing....bring in help for the defensive line.

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Many valid points, TI.

[Stan R]

Yes, you are correct TI. And that is why this class gets a C+ and not a D.

[TIgreen01]

Yes, you are correct TI. And that is why this class gets a C+ and not a D. 

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Well, at least that matches our ranking in NCAA Football 06! (weren't we a C+?)

Seriously, though....why is this a C+ class? The coaches filled our most obvious need....and brought in 2 all state players in that group....that's more at one position than I can remember us ever having before.

If you are basing your opinion on the lack of top 100 list players in this class, then I can understand---though I think you'll never be satisfied b/c we will NEVER get very many of them as those lists are compiled mostly by just looking at who the biggest schools are going after.....well, at least not until we BECOME one of those big schools. Take a look at those lists again....count up how many times you see Baylor, SMU, UTEP, Rice, Tulsa (maybe 4 or 5??)....how many times do you see UT, tamu, OU---over 25 times each....doesn't that seem to signal how the list was generated?? This isn't rocket science, folks.

[UNTLifer]

If you are basing your opinion on the lack of top 100 list players in this class, then I can understand---though I think you'll never be satisfied b/c we will NEVER get very many of them as those lists are compiled mostly by just looking at who the biggest schools are going after.....well, at least not until we BECOME one of those big schools.  Take a look at those lists again....count up how many times you see Baylor, SMU, UTEP, Rice, Tulsa (maybe 4 or 5??)....how many times do you see UT, tamu, OU---over 25 times each....doesn't that seem to signal how the list was generated??  This isn't rocket science, folks.

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I agree. After the top 10 or 20 players on these lists it is a crap shoot. Do you actually think the people that compile these lists are watching every high school kid and then making their assessments?

[FirefightnRick]

QUOTEIt seems to me that our 2000 & 2001 recruiting classes were not highly ranked by the recruiting services.  Anybody still have the Dave Campbell's mag from 2 years ago?....they rank all the Texas D1 schools classes once they graduate, but they also show the ranking they received back when they were initially recruited....

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The 2004 Issue of DCTF ranks North Texas' 1999 class #4 in Texas behind Texas(76.2), Texas Tech(65.1) and TCU(58.8) and states the following:

#4 NORTH TEXAS

1999 coach: Darrell Dickey

Players signed: 28 (24 high school, four junior college).

At the time: Dickey's first class didn't draw much attention, particularly in comparison to the standout classes at Texas, Texas a&m and TCU. At best, it was viewed as a promisiong first step in DIckey's attempt to rebuild the Mean Green.

At the Finish: Let's hear it for a few good men. Eleven players failed to earn a single letter for the MEan Green, but those who contributed, contributed mightily. DB's Don McGee, and Crag Jones and TE Jeff Muenchow earned all-conference honors three times each, which, coincindentally, matches the number of Sun Belt Conference titles the Mean Green has captured under Dickey.

Fifth Year Seniors: None

Four-Year lettermen (6): Marcu Degrate, CHris McIver, Craig Jones, Don McGee, Jeff Muenchow, Matt Turney.

Top Starters: Jones(four years); McIver, Muenchow, Turney(three years each).

Original Texas Football ranking(on a 10 point scale): Not rated

Final grade(on a 100 point scale): 53.

I believe Turney started 4 years, not 3(2000 thru 2003). I'm still searching around for my '05 issue because it will have the 2000 class in it.

Rick

Edited February 8, 2006 by FirefightnRick

[Stan R]

I agree.  After the top 10 or 20 players on these lists it is a crap shoot.  Do you actually think the people that compile these lists are watching every high school kid and then making their assessments?

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I'd guess they are taking the word of others who have watched these people in depth. Someone must have watched them to make that determination. Are you saying the list is useless? Why do all of the BCS schools sign players off of them almost exclusively? Why have most of our best players (and some playing in the NFL today) come off of the top 100 list?

[TIgreen01]

Why do all of the BCS schools sign players off of them almost exclusively?

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That's exactly what I answered in my second message....I'm speculating that the lists are made up exclusively of the players that the BCS schools show some interest in. UT, OU and tamu don't wait around for the area 100 lists to show up before they start recruiting these kids.....several articles posted on this board in the past several weeks support that thought....esp. the one that quotes one of the OU coaches.

here:

http://OU post posted by Harry

...though this post kind of makes a mockery of the lists....but the coach asserts that if you simply follow the big schools and who they offer, you'll find the best players. I don't know how the lists are compiled, but I'd guess that's exactly what happens a lot of times.

Edited February 8, 2006 by TIgreen01

[MeanGreenPOP]

That's exactly what I answered in my second message....I'm speculating that the lists are made up exclusively of the players that the BCS schools show some interest in.  UT, OU and tamu don't wait around for the area 100 lists to show up before they start recruiting these kids.....several articles posted on this board in the past several weeks support that thought....esp. the one that quotes one of the OU coaches.

here:

http://OU post posted by Harry

...though this post kind of makes a mockery of the lists....but the coach asserts that if you simply follow the big schools and who they offer, you'll find the best players.  I don't know how the lists are compiled, but I'd guess that's exactly what happens a lot of times.

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I agree with you to an extent...however, NIKE camps play a major roll in how these kids get rated. for example, Kid A and Kid B are pretty much the same with stats, grades, abilities, ect...Kid A goes to a NIKE camp and Kid B does not...Because Kid A gets a 3 star rating right off the bat because he went to the Nike camp and got some good plublicty, winds up getting recruited by every big program in the country which drives his ranking up to 4 or 5 stars and signs with OU or USC or some other big high profile program. Meanwhile Kid B stays a 2 star rating and winds up going to TU for instance because they are good at reconizing great talent. The same thing happens to kids (in Oklahoma anyway) that go to the large High schools such as Tulsa Union or Jenks which are perennial power houses and consistantly are nationaly rated by the USAtoday. The head coaches of these programs just drop a word about a certain kid on the team to the press after a big game and the next thing you know he is listed on rivals with 3,4 or 5 stars....believe me, I've studied the recruiting process and have seen it happen with both scenarios time after time.

[ObviousMan]

...Take a look at those lists again....count up how many times you see Baylor, SMU, UTEP, Rice, Tulsa (maybe 4 or 5??)....how many times do you see UT, tamu, OU---over 25 times each....doesn't that seem to signal how the list was generated??  This isn't rocket science, folks.

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I agree that the BCS level schools drive who shows up on the list, but what I don't agree with is the premise that UNT may not be in the running for any of these players. If Baylor, SMU, UTEP, Rice, Tulsa can be mentioned on the list, and get some of those players, why can't UNT?

My point is that while UNT may not be on same level of UT, Florida, USC, etc., they should be able to compete both on the field of play and in recruiting with the likes of UTEP, SMU, Baylor, etc. That should be a very attainable short term goal. However, given the past few recruiting classes, and the lack of non-conference wins, something needs to be done to correct the problem.

I'll up the ante to a quarter.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

That's exactly what I answered in my second message....I'm speculating that the lists are made up exclusively of the players that the BCS schools show some interest in.  UT, OU and tamu don't wait around for the area 100 lists to show up before they start recruiting these kids.....several articles posted on this board in the past several weeks support that thought....esp. the one that quotes one of the OU coaches.

here:

http://OU post posted by Harry

...though this post kind of makes a mockery of the lists....but the coach asserts that if you simply follow the big schools and who they offer, you'll find the best players.  I don't know how the lists are compiled, but I'd guess that's exactly what happens a lot of times.

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[Guest GrayEagleOne]

That's exactly what I answered in my second message....I'm speculating that the lists are made up exclusively of the players that the BCS schools show some interest in.  UT, OU and tamu don't wait around for the area 100 lists to show up before they start recruiting these kids.....several articles posted on this board in the past several weeks support that thought....esp. the one that quotes one of the OU coaches.

here:

http://OU post posted by Harry

...though this post kind of makes a mockery of the lists....but the coach asserts that if you simply follow the big schools and who they offer, you'll find the best players.  I don't know how the lists are compiled, but I'd guess that's exactly what happens a lot of times.

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Many of the athletes on this list are entered in a database when they are sophomores. They receive film for evaluation and in some cases take their own. They talk to the coaches, scouts, and even professionals. They keep updating their own files and adding new names. At least one recruiting service stated that there were more than 2,000 athletes in their database. They pour over all-state, all-area and all-district lists. This is their livelihood and they try to get it right.

Are they always right? You know that's not the case. But they are so much closer than any one coaching staff could ever be it's not funny. Many colleges pay to use their recruiting services so they need to be as accurate as they can. They will miss an occasional late bloomer but it is now so far advanced from the old days.

As others have posted, some of the athletes stand out so much that they can't be missed. The farther down the database you go, the harder it is to separate the data so you let the computer do it for you. If you've input correctly with a good weight factor, your results will be fairly accurate. But again, that's only based on physical traits such as weight, speed, strength of schedule, and accomplishments. It's still difficult to measure character and heart.

The more prominent schools get all from the list because they can. They don't have to try to find an undiscovered jewel as the lesser schools do. But, the list is deep enough that all can use it pretty effectively and then take a few chances with some that are "under the radar." Having said that, I sure wouldn't want to go against the research and build an entire class of "under the radar" signings.

Lastly, you can't wait four years to evaluate your recent signings. They will be (and should be) analyzed constantly. Some classes fail because they lose too many of their best signees. Look at the 2004 class. The highest rated was Jamario Thomas, and we have to admit that his ranking was justified. But several other highly rated players are already gone. Thomas Pratt, Kevin Wright, Travis Thompson, Micah West and Brady Hartman are no longer on the team. Brandon Jackson is probably the only one that has exceeded expectations and he's made it as a receiver, not a defensive back. Brandon Monroe has matched expectations and several others could. But, if you wait until this class is seniors to evaluate them, what good does it do, actually? It's too late to adjust for shortcomings then.

[UNTLifer]

At the time:  Dickey's first class didn't draw much attention, particularly in comparison to the standout classes at Texas, Texas a&m and TCU.  At best, it was viewed as a promisiong first step in DIckey's attempt to rebuild the Mean Green.

At the Finish:  Let's hear it for a few good men.

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You mean the rating they received when they signed wasn't really a true indication of the success and contributions these young men made to the program over their collegiate career? Shocking!