A request from Cooley

EagleD · January 10, 2006

His win totals are:
Year 1: 15
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I guess I just don't remember him winning 15 games his first season. My bad.

As a general rule I defer to Cooley on the assessment of this team. He follows NT Bball A LOT closer than I. He also seems fair in his judgements. His critisisms have merit, backed up by facts (no knee jerk responses) that goes a long way.

I have to say I'm pretty pleased with JJ, but there is always room for improvement.

GO MEAN GREEN !!!!!!!!!

January 10, 2006

I don't have a required number of wins by a certain year or anything like that. I just want to see an improved team on the floor every year, which is something that I have indeed seen. However, I think that we are nearing the time when our basketball teams take the step to the next level. That doesn't mean winning conference every year, but the occasional conference championship, compete year in and year out in the conference tournament, and play in one of the two post season tournaments every year are places that I think these programs should be in the near future.

Since I started following NT basketball I have really wanted a NCAA birth for the men's team, and I think that will happen sooner rather than later. I just hope when it does I am able to make the trip to see them play.

Cooley · January 11, 2006

"Appears that Cooley has not been to any games by the way he started the post. Shame on you for such a critical run down of the players if you have never seen them play."

EagleD-

"Go to the game and your questions will be answered and if you can not make it because you live in a place far far away tune in via internet. It is "way" evident you have not listened to or attended a game either, like Cooley."

EulessEagle

Your response to my post is exactly why I felt the question(s) about expectations needed to be asked. You seem to lead the pact in posting thoughts and opinions based on emotion, rather than facts. This is a critical time for our university. Everyone desires to be in a better football conference. The consensus is Conference USA.

When CUSA shows up to conduct their due-diligence of prospective members, overall facilities and men’s basketball must be in order. As alums, our obligation should be to ensure that our university continues to strive for excellence. We must stay focused on the big picture. I submit to you that had it not been for demanding UT alums and boosters, UT would not have won a national championship. We have a right to know where the program is headed and on whose watch. Euless, I have 2 sons attending UNT where I paying out of my a** in fees; imposed by various areas of the university, as well as athletics. To not complain would be taxation without representation.

Euless, what was so objectionable to my questions? Like you, I like Johnny Jones. I believe the kids when they speak highly of him. Unfortunately, this is not about how nice of a guy he is in the big scheme of things. I’m sorry that you took offense!

In response to your false accusation that I don’t attend games, let me assure you that I do. I would never attempt to critique a player or coach without seeing the games myself. I have seen 3 badly played games this year (Nichols St, SFA & New Orleans). While visiting my sons in Denton, I also sat in on a practice session.

For those who are students of the game, I don’t think it is necessary to see every game to form an opinion. I don’t think Jeff Sagarin (sp) has been to the Pit many times, yet he ranks our Mean Green somewhere above 200. Las Vegas does an outstanding job establishing lines yet I don’t think many of those guys attend many games. I can’t lie to you Euless; I did not circle Abilene Christian, Harden-Simmons, Angelo St or UT-Permian Basin on my calendar.

While an undergrad at NT (first year 1975) I attended every home game. I also made some road games as well. Unlike most grads, I didn’t stop attending games after graduation. In fact, for a number of years, I felt that I was the only fool in the Dallas area making most games dating back to the late 70’s. Quite frankly, I’m not sure if anyone has attended more NT games than I have over the same time frame. Euless, a life-long hobby of mine is saving ticket stubs of games, concerts and other events that I have attended. If I agree to fax you some ticket stubs of UNT basketball games will you cut me some slack?

I really need to get a life Euless, because in addition to UNT games, I try to catch all the local high school talent and teams in the metroplex. This has also been a fun hobby of mine; following where the kids will end up after their high school careers. (Almost all Dallas area kids recruited to UNT Euless, I saw during their high school careers) I hope you like Collin Mangrum next year Euless. I’ve seen him play last year in a holiday tournament, at the state tournament in Austin and 2 games this summer in Denton. (Denton Shootout) I like him Euless, trust me!

Euless, I hate that JJ has not given me an opportunity to scout more recruits since most of them come from far away places. It was easy for me to see that Ty Thomas and Ron Harris wouldn’t be impact players after watching them at Arlington Oak Ridge and Arlington Sam Houston HS. Euless, I felt real good about Leonard Hopkins after watching him back to his sophomore year at Dallas Lincoln. Euless, I wish you could go back a few years, on this board, and read where I stated that Dallas Lincoln had a 6-6 soph sleeper with a world of potential. (Chris Bosh is doing quite well now in the NBA)

Euless, I can go on and on and as far back as you would like to prove that I attend games. I can’t, however, tell you that I’ve made it to Mineral Area. (Still trying to find out where the hell that is!)

Anyway, back to JJ and the program

Euless, consider the fact that JJ has just completed his 6th recruiting class. Below are his predecessors and their number of classes:

Vic Trilli 5

Tim Jankovich 4

Jimmy Gales 7

Tommy Newman 3

Bill Blakeley 8

Gene Robbins 4

Don’t get me wrong Euless, but most of these guys (if not all of them) were fired after less time and more wins. Bill Blakeley was God around here. Blakeley posted the best record in school history and had 3 straight 20+ teams. He also recruited Spud Webb to NT but Spud left after they showed Blake the door. As you may know, his 2005-2006 squad was the best in the State. Jimmy Gales coached the only team to go to the big dance. Vic Trilli couldn't coach but recruited the best crop of kids since the early to mid 70’s.

Now Euless, again, I don’t mean to piss anyone off but at what point do we ask ourselves how long should it take? Please don't be fooled by our record!

Euless, try not to read anymore into a post than what’s there. My desire, like others, is to have a Top-75 program (in the near future) If JJ is a great coach, but we are ranked somewhere north of 200, we need to recruit better players. Is this logical? If we have good to great talent with a great coach then you would not be reading this post.

Looking at the teams ranked around 75-80 currently, you would have to agree that we only have 3-4 of our kids that can make those rosters. Not bashing JJ, just want better faster!

Go Mean Green!

Zeke · January 11, 2006

I know I am way late in answering the original question. My expectation is to see JJ take our team into the NCAA tourney or the NIT this year or next. I think some think that is far too leniant given how long he has had (and that may be true), but I have seen improvement in play recently. I am not referring to win/loss records, but I am referring to what I think I see on the court as far as hustle and talent.

GangGreen · January 11, 2006

I am by no means an expert, but I do like the enthusiasm that this year's team plays with.

We are 1-1 in conference this year, with a lot of games left to play. I expect us to finish 2nd or 3rd in our division and possibly win a game in the conf. tourney.

Next year should really be the measuring stick. We will return Davis, Sturns, Watson and Brown in the back court. Williams, Wooden and Muse could really make for interesting front court.

I really don't see a down side to bringing in JUCO B-ballers to boost your program. In football it doesn't seem to work as well.

Billy Tubbs pretty much made a career out of JUCO players. I think, correct me if I am wrong, but Stacey King, Harvey Grant and Mookie Blaylock were all from junior colleges.

As far as where I expect this team to be, I think here is about right. I would expect for them to improve in the next few years, but this is a lot better than watching Vic's teams.

Am I content, not completely. I, too, want improvement. If we don't see it with next season's team, I will be very disappointed. For now, I am happy to see a team that is competitve and actually gives a shart about losing games.

GangGreen · January 11, 2006

BTW, Euless, Eagle D is almost always on line watching or listening. I know, am too.

Which brings up a good point, if we pay to watch on line, could we be counted on the official attendance?

UNTSportsGuy · January 11, 2006

BTW, Euless, Eagle D is almost always on line watching or listening. I know, am too.
Which brings up a good point, if we pay to watch on line, could we be counted on the official attendance?
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So just add two people to the figure that we make up for every game?

January 11, 2006

I almost hated to comment because I think that JJ is one of the nicest people that I know. I want him to succeed so bad because he and I grew up in the same town in Louisiana. I left DeRidder before he was born but I still have several friends there that followed him through high school and LSU as a player and coach so I've known about him long before I met him when he came to North Texas. The point is I have been reluctant to offer any adverse criticism until lately.

I think that Johnny Jones is a decent coach and recruiter but not a Top 75 coach if that is our aspiration. However, realize that JJ had only one season as a head coach prior to coming to North Texas so he is still in a learning process. Some areas are improved but Southall was right; our games do sometimes appear to be "street" ball. There's simply too much individual play and not enough team play. After all, basketball is a TEAM sport.

It does seem that the talent level has improved under JJ. Part of that is due to the lack of freshmen. Most of the jucos have had two years of play beyond high school so they should play better. Among the transfers, Davis, Simpson and Brown could play for most teams. Hines was excellent last year but this year has been a disappointment. From those who came here as freshmen, Sturns is my favorite but I think that Stewart and Williams will be pretty solid; Watkins will come back and I'm hopeful that Edwards and Howerton will contribute.

Unless we want to become a school where basketball is at least equal to, if not ahead of, football (Memphis, Louisville, Kentucky etc.) which is going to require some big bucks to get an established winning coach then I think that we should stick with Jones for a couple or three more years. Right now, he's basically a .500 coach but he should improve. He just might be able to get a NCAA bid in that time.

EagleD · January 11, 2006

I really need to get a life Euless, because in addition to UNT games, I try to catch all the local high school talent and teams in the metroplex.
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If you stop doing this I'll get absolutely NO recruiting data. Know there are a number of us who look forward to your analysis. I don't think you came off as too critical of JJ, you just posed a question.

I think most of us were willing to give JJ a few years to get his own recruits and build the program. Now we are asking for results. Not huge results, just be a contender in conference, and if we can't get to the big dance (NCAA tourney), the junior prom (NIT) will do for now.

Personality does go a long way. I think we'd all forgive DD a little more if he was more personable in the media.

GO MEAN GREEN !!!!!!!

OldTimer · January 11, 2006

RE: Not recruiting DFW BB prospects: My oldest grandson is going to TCU, my next grandson who graduates in May will in all likehood be going to an East Coast

I have tried to interest them in NT taking them to some FB and BB games. They are just not interested...why....the NT reputation in the metroplex is one of student apathy...no school spirit...

Out of state prospects evidently don't have this perception or are just unaware of it.

eulesseagle · January 11, 2006

Cooley--

You are correct when you say that I speak from emotion when I talk about UNT athletics. The reasons are obvious.

1. for most of us we have seen the rise - fall - rise - fall - rise - fall of NTSU/ UNT athletics for over 40 years. We have seen the admin get rid of some excellent coaches and we have seen the administration keep some really poor performing coaches. Looking back it still makes no sense to me.

2. we have seen NTSU/UNT change athletic conference: MVC, Indep, Southland, BWC and SBC. Going to D-1AA, IMHO, was the worst move that the admin could have possibly done and personally we have not recovered jumping back to D-1A.

3. the geo-political climate of the NCAA has changed college athletics during the last 20 years or so. The NCAA favors the bigger conferences and have aligned them into the BCS. This stigmatizes the smaller D-1A schools into Mid-Majors. Since there is no playoff system for D-1A football the BCS gets most of the bowl slots and conferences like the SBC get one or two. In basketball the SBC gets one slot and get to be cannon fodder for the highest seeded team in the bracket.

4. Because of this current situation at UNT being in the worst D-1A FB conference and a similarly weak BB conference - in rankings- we are in Dante's Inferno.

5. When I was at the UNT/Houston BB game the Houston fans were yelling, "we cant let NT beat us they are in the SunBelt Conference.

6. Until UNT moves up to another conference (WAC or CUSA) then we are litterally stuck in the "weakest" and "less respected" conference in D-1 athletics. We know it, the coaches know it and coaches who we recruit against know it. I personally think this hampers our recruiting efforts. For example, last year DD was trying to get a JUCO QB and we actually had the inside track on this kid and Nebraska needed a QB. UNT or Nebraska.

7. I think kids in HS know the pecking order of conferences and teams.

8. Because of all the above reasons IMHO JJ, in the situation that he is in, has done an excellent job with the team and I have seen improvement and quality of his players. I enjoy the intensity that the team plays with this year and have certainly enjoyed all the steals and the tenacity that this happens. As far as the comments that the guys are playing "street ball"..... i would imagine to some degree but it is much more organized this year.

9. I just do not like to listen to people begin to say that since JJ or anyone else has not progressed the team far enough we may want to change the coach. IMHO, again, there has been a great deal of improvement with the team and depth....this is my opionion!! I do not think it is time for a change or even put down my parameters to keep JJ.

10. The overall problem is the conference we are in and not the coaching staff in BB......FB, I think is a different set of circumstance which I do not want to get into.

11. Cooley, If you think I am still emotional, well, I am and so should everyone else about the athletic program and the school.

12. Until another realignment comes along that UNT can take advantage of then we just have to struggle in the SBC and for all what it gives us like playing the #4 CUSA team in the NO Bowl and one seed in the NCAA BB.... playing the highest seed team in the region.

13. It if for these reasons why i feel frustrated about how some posters feel about how easy it may be to go out and get a "top quality" coach to turn the program around for the money that UNT has to pay. Unless Bobby Knight quits TT and decides he would like to coach UNT for free that is how we will get a top coach either in BB or FB. All of you will have to agree that we lucked out when we landed Coach Fry at NTSU.

14. Cooley, I hope this little explanation gives you an idea where I am coming from and if i peeeeeved you off a little then I appologize....that is not my intention. There are too many posters who have never gone to the games but post negativity on the board. Go up to JJ during the next couple of games, you will find him looking down from the mid section where his office is looking at the crowds.....go up to him and tell him how much you appreciate what he is doing. I knows he enjoys that.

Cooley · January 12, 2006

Thanks Euless for your comments and everyone else for sharing your thoughts on this subject. We all should attempt to make as many games as we can as a show of support.

I think it is important for our coaches to know that we support them but at the same time, we expect them to respect us and make us proud alums.

We want bragging rights in the work place!

GangGreen · January 12, 2006

6. Until UNT moves up to another conference (WAC or CUSA) then we are litterally stuck in the "weakest" and "less respected" conference in D-1 athletics. We know it, the coaches know it and coaches who we recruit against know it. I personally think this hampers our recruiting efforts. For example, last year DD was trying to get a JUCO QB and we actually had the inside track on this kid and Nebraska needed a QB. UNT or Nebraska.
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I agree with some of your points, but this is way off base. Okay, since this is a basketball forum, that was a brick.

There is nothing solid I have ever seen that Zac Taylor was leaning towards NT over Nebraska. If you think being in the WAC or CUSA would have made a difference try this on for size:

Idaho or Nebraska

Nevada or Nebraska

NMSU or Nebraska

E. Carolina or Nebraska

Rice or Nebraska

Houston or Nebraska

San Jose or Nebraska

UAB or Nebraska

Give me a break. Any kid would choose a starting position with one of the greatest football schools of all time over any other mid major program every day of the week, every month of the year, and every year in this millenium.