A request from Cooley

Cooley · January 9, 2006

Having learned a lesson from the Darrell Dickey/UNT football program debates, it is clear to me that we all are on different pages regarding our expectations of the head coach and the programs. To help understand one’s post regarding basketball, it would be nice to preface posts with the following:

Where you feel the men’s basketball program should be at this point?

What are your expectations? What’s acceptable or what’s not?

What are your expectations of Johnny Jones, the players and recruiting?

I respectfully request this additional information to help ensure that discussions/opinions are based on apples to apples.

For instance, we continue to read differing opinions/expectations from most posters about the program. Some feel that this is the best team in years. Some feel that JJ is the best coach in a number of years. Some feel that we are as talented as we have ever been. Some believe that the most recent recruited class is the best in a number of years. Many do not agree with any of this.

Like you, I thoroughly enjoy reading the many opinions expressed here. Because individual expectations are not necessarily known, I think it maybe difficult for others to fully appreciate your point of view. Anyway, just for a little while, can we also state our expectation(s) for the benefit of the entire board?

I have personally followed the program closely since 1975. Taking facilities and location into consideration, I expect our basketball program to be a top 75 program. I also expect UNT to win the Sun Belt Conference and tournament or be in serious contention; thus making it to the big dance/NIT annually.

We are obviously not there; therefore, I expect JJ to recruit better players than we currently have. (within 3-4 years) I feel that we only have 3-4 kids with top 75 ability. Having had this opinion for a few years, I am particularly disappointed with our 2005-2006 recruiting class:

Last night’s box scores

North Texas Eagles

STARTERS MIN FGM-A FTM-A OFF REB AST PF PTS

Q. Williams, F 21 1-1 1-2 1 2 0 0 3

J. Simpson, C 32 6-12 4-4 5 6 0 1 16

K. Davis, G 33 7-18 3-7 2 5 2 4 19

I. Hines, G 18 0-1 0-0 0 2 1 0 0

C. Watson, G 6 2-3 0-0 0 0 0 1 4

BENCH MIN FGM-A FTM-A OFF REB AST PF PTS

L. Brown, G 22 4-9 0-0 0 2 1 2 11

M. Sturns, G 27 4-14 1-1 2 4 4 4 11

R. Young, G-F 14 0-0 0-0 1 1 0 0 0

H. Edwards, F 4 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 1 0

H. Stewart, F 15 1-2 0-0 1 1 1 5 2

J. Barnett, C 8 1-1 1-1 2 3 1 1 3

TOTALS FGM-A FTM-A OFF REB AST PF PTS

26-61 10-15 14 28 10 19 69

42.6% 66.7%

TEAM REBS: 28TURNOVERS: 19 (I Hines 1, K Davis 4, J Simpson 3, M Sturns 2, Q Williams 1, L Brown 2, H Edwards 1, H Stewart 4, R Young 1)BLOCKED SHOTS: 5 (J Simpson 2, H Stewart 2, R Young 1)STEALS: 6 (K Davis 1, J Simpson 1, M Sturns 2, H Stewart 2)3-PT FGS: 7-23, .304 (I Hines 0-1, K Davis 2-8, C Watson 0-1, M Sturns 2-6, L Brown 3-7)

2005-2006 Class

· Lionel Brown (Backup) 1 year remain; looks to shoot first point guard

· Harold Edwards (Not a D1 player) IMO

· R. Young, Juco (Don’t understand this signing)

· H. Stewart, (Didn’t like this signing, will be a 4 yr backup)

· Justin Howerton, project (get’s no PT)

I realize my expectations and opinions may be different than others. At least I hope the board understand where I have and will come from with past and future posts. Top 75 or the door. Just win baby!

Please share your thoughts and expectations

Thanks!

SUMG · January 9, 2006

I'm with you, Cooley. We should have a top 75 program. It shouldn't be that hard to get one going, when you consider our location and facility (like you pointed out).

Correct me if I'm wrong....but I don't think JJ has ever signed a kid straight out of a Dallas ISD school.

It's unfathomable to me, how our football and basketball programs, can no longer recruit Dallas ISD schools. Football didn't sign anyone from any of those schools last year either.

Think about this....how the Hell can the UNT basketball program, not have a single player from a Dallas ISD school but we will next year have two from Howe????

That's part of our problem.

Also, I think he goes to the same well, too often. We've signed three guys in two years from Eastern Oklahoma JC, two from Howe, and two from Mineral Area CC.

Anyway....expect JJ to be back in 2006-2007. From what I understand, all he has to do is win 14 games, and he's back next year.

Some standards of excellence around here, huh?

Cooley · January 9, 2006

No Dallasites directly out of HS under the JJ administration. The last Dallas ISD kids right out of HS were recruited by Vic Trilli:

(2000-2001)

Leonard Hopkins, Dallas Lincoln

Jerome Rogers, Dallas Madison

Will Smith, Dallas Lincoln

(All starters at one point)

JJ's best players transferred in:

Kendrick Davis, Arkansas

Shawnson Johnson, LSU

As you know, its important to have coaches with Texas ties. The current roster is about 50-50 with Texas kids (outside of the area) vs out of state kids. Additionally, we bring in more out of state kids next year.

It's not my intent to bash JJ, but it is-what it is!

UNTSportsGuy · January 9, 2006

Unlike football, Texas is not the top Basketball state in that nation, thus recruiting Texas kids has no real influence on how good this team can be.

IslandEagle · January 9, 2006

Unlike football, Texas is not the top Basketball state in that nation, thus recruiting Texas kids has no real influence on how good this team can be.
←

My expectations are clear and simple for JJ. Be competitive this year and then win the conference next year with the recruits and transfers we have coming in. If JJ can't do it next year, he can't do it period.

Coach · January 9, 2006

My expectations are to become a good "non-power conference" team that makes the tournament with some regularity, and has the reputation as a bracket buster in March.

As it is, we have been to the tournament once, and if we were to make it this year, would not be considered dangerous.

I think that can change given our facilities and location, but I won't hold my breath given attendance and expectations handed down from the AD offices.

GrandGreen · January 9, 2006

Having learned a lesson from the Darrell Dickey/UNT football program debates, it is clear to me that we all are on different pages regarding our expectations of the head coach and the programs. To help understand one’s post regarding basketball, it would be nice to preface posts with the following:
Where you feel the men’s basketball program should be at this point?
Difficult to answer. Trilli setback a sub-par team to as close to the bottom as a program can fall. NT at one time was one of the best programs in the state benefitting from being in the best basketball conference in the nation followed up with building the best college basketball arena in the state at the time. NT sqandered their early lead in the state and has done little to improve the situation..
What are your expectations? What’s acceptable or what’s not?
NT should be one of the top programs in the state and should compete for the Belt tittle every year.
What are your expectations of Johnny Jones, the players and recruiting?
I think JJ is the best coach NT has had in a long time but I am not sure that is high praise. His recruiting has been suspect but seems to be improving. I am not all that high on his last class although it is highly rated. All recruits are transfers with only two years except Mangrum. Muse at 6'10 is the cornerstone of the class but he is only averaging approximately 9 points and 5 rebounds a game. Jackson has been injured I think, but in any case is not currently playing. Mangrum is also injured but was a very borderline recruit to begin with. Don't know much about Bell but he does not appear to be an offensive threat.
I do believe that this year time has more talent and is deeper then any since Bill Blakeley's early teams. At this point in time though the team is very inconsistent and frankly not that good.
I2005-2006 Class
· Lionel Brown (Backup) 1 year remain; looks to shoot first point guard
Disagree, Brown has been a suprise to me and is good enough that he is getting as much if not more playing time then Hines (who was supposed to be NT's best player).
· Harold Edwards (Not a D1 player) IMO
Too early to proclaim not a D1 player. A dissapointment so far because the signing was so hyped. IMO most great players start out that way. They are not only contributors in the freshman year but often the best player on the team. NT examples (Kenneth Lyons, Jessie Ratliff, Chris Davis). Edwards and any other JJ recruits certainly don't meet this criteria.
· R. Young, Juco (Don’t understand this signing)
Agree although he is better than I assumed. ·
H. Stewart, (Didn’t like this signing, will be a 4 yr backup)
Disagree, I think Stewart has a great upside. ·
Justin Howerton, project (get’s no PT)
Hard to determine, but could develop. My big concern is how he is going to get playing time with 3 big transfers comming in.
Summary, I have been a little bit disappointed in JJ based on the high expectations at his hiring. However, with a program as down and out as this one, I think his performance is acceptable thus far. One good thing is unlike others he has never publically complained and seems like a first rate person. An example of what he is facing is that in one of the biggest games of the year against ULL there was an announced crowd of 1300. NT playing ULL the defending champion with probably the two best athletes in the conference could only get an actual crowd of less than a 1000. Yes school is out, but based on their attendence this year that would only amount to a loss of a couple hundred fans.
If JJ can get at least break even in the conference this year, he should get another year. If next year NT is not close to a top 100 program, I would make a change.

GrandGreen · January 9, 2006

Unlike football, Texas is not the top Basketball state in that nation, thus recruiting Texas kids has no real influence on how good this team can be.
←

Not true. Texas is one of if not the top state in producing 1A basketball recruits.

UNTLifer · January 9, 2006

Question for all, How long should it take to turn a program around? In my opinion, JJ has been here long enough to make a positive impact, but I don't think he has. I continually read, and also believe, that NT has a great facility and a great location, but this has been the case for years. The athletic department needs to step up and show me that it wants to be a major force in basketball before I lay all the blame at JJ's feet.

My opinion of JJ is that he is a great guy, but isn't a great in game coach. I have observed for too long under his watch poor clock management, poor use of timeouts, no flow to his offense and as Michael Southall put it, "playground" ball.

I would expect North Texas to be a threat to the NCAA tournament every year.

Mad Hatter · January 9, 2006

My expectation is a lot like Coach. We should consistantly be making it to the Tournament in March and advancing every once in a while. It'd be great to have a team that could win it all, but I really don't see that happeneing any time soon.

We should win more than we lose against Non Conference teams.

UNTSportsGuy · January 9, 2006

Stewart probably has the most upside of any of the players on the team.

From what I hear, Bell is better than both Hines and Brown.

Edited January 9, 2006 by UNTSportsGuy

stebo · January 9, 2006

Question for all, How long should it take to turn a program around? In my opinion, JJ has been here long enough to make a positive impact, but I don't think he has. I continually read, and also believe, that NT has a great facility and a great location, but this has been the case for years. The athletic department needs to step up and show me that it wants to be a major force in basketball before I lay all the blame at JJ's feet.
My opinion of JJ is that he is a great guy, but isn't a great in game coach. I have observed for too long under his watch poor clock management, poor use of timeouts, no flow to his offense and as Michael Southall put it, "playground" ball.
I would expect North Texas to be a threat to the NCAA tournament every year.
←

How can you not see the progress? We were at rock bottom before JJ got here - Trilli's last few years consisted of seasons that ended with a maximum of 4-5 wins. JJ is not lighting it up; but he is winning 14-15 games a year and is close to (if not over) .500 every year. We lost Saturday by 3 - but take away that loss and we are off to a HUGE start this year... just a couple of losses to Houston and A&M - and some great wins to UL and Tulsa. I think it is crazy for any fan (even a casual one like me) to not be able to see the improvement of this team... they just need to get over the hump. Can JJ get us over the hump? I dunno - at this point I have my doubts - but I don't rule it out completely. But at least he got us back TO the hump! We hadn't sniffed the hump in a long time!

UNTSportsGuy · January 9, 2006

We hadn't sniffed the hump in a long time!
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eulesseagle · January 9, 2006

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding

we are in the SBC (Dante's Inferno of conferences)---we are still a Mid Major!!

JJ lost to A&M by 2 (we had a chance to win it)

JJ lost to Houston after we went blank for the last 4 min.

JJ lost to N.O. by 3 but the team came out a little flat.

IMHO JJ is one of the best finds we have had in a long time and a great recruiter for the Dante's Inferno Conference. Anyone who has been going to the games can tell what an improved team we have.

Appears that Cooley has not been to any games by the way he started the post. Shame on you for such a critical run down of the players if you have never seen them play.

IMHO, again, I think JJ has a legitimate shot at winning the SBC, this year and winning the SBC tournament. I think our team is that good and if we can keep the intensity up.

IMHO, again, with the Arizona transfer that will start next year he looks awsom.

for all of you who want to fire coaches after a couple of years at UNT get a grip. We are in the SBC a lowly mid major program. Until we get out of Dante's Inferno then we are all going to have to live with what we get.

Quit this JJ bashing.....he does not deserve it!!!

ttunt · January 9, 2006

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
we are in the SBC (Dante's Inferno of conferences)---we are still a Mid Major!!
JJ lost to A&M by 2 (we had a chance to win it)
JJ lost to Houston after we went blank for the last 4 min.
JJ lost to N.O. by 3 but the team came out a little flat.
IMHO JJ is one of the best finds we have had in a long time and a great recruiter for the Dante's Inferno Conference. Anyone who has been going to the games can tell what an improved team we have.
Appears that Cooley has not been to any games by the way he started the post. Shame on you for such a critical run down of the players if you have never seen them play.
IMHO, again, I think JJ has a legitimate shot at winning the SBC, this year and winning the SBC tournament. I think our team is that good and if we can keep the intensity up.
IMHO, again, with the Arizona transfer that will start next year he looks awsom.
for all of you who want to fire coaches after a couple of years at UNT get a grip. We are in the SBC a lowly mid major program. Until we get out of Dante's Inferno then we are all going to have to live with what we get.
Quit this JJ bashing.....he does not deserve it!!!
←

UNTLifer · January 9, 2006

We lost Saturday by 3 - but take away that loss and we are off to a HUGE start this year... just a couple of losses to Houston and A&M - and some great wins to UL and Tulsa.
←

We started the same way last year.

Look, I want JJ to succeed just as much as the next fan, but he's in-game coaching decisions are head scratchers.

It shouldn't take this long to turn around a program when 1 good recruiting class or one or two good players can make a difference.

EagleD · January 9, 2006

What do I want to see out of our basketball program?

1. Q. Continual progress (i.e. wins)

A. I think he's continually increased his wins. I'm too lazy today to look it up, but I think so.

2. Q. Can he coach good fundamentals?

A. It seems like it, but the last game was not a good indication. I am definitely no basketball coach, but judging from what he inherited...

3. Q. Can he recruit?

A. At first look it appears he's made some good connections, and gotten some good transfers. But again, I am no recruiter, so I don't know what he's done locally. Even though he's not landed a kid from DFW, what kind of relationship does he have with local coaches, and high schools? I don't know? We can't rely on transfers. So for numerous reasons we have to develop local talent. Right now it looks like he's not done that.

4. Q. A coach who can work the media machine.

A. Since our media machine is broken, and gets very little use, every time I see him on TV he seems polished, and appealing.

I know this is a vague summary, but I think he's doing a good job. I am waiting for a breakout year, though. This year would be nice, but I'll give him another year before I complain. He started with such a bad program.

GO MEAN GREEN !!!!!!!

eulesseagle · January 9, 2006

Lifer-

I am going to have to disagree with you.

IMHO, JJ does a great job adjusting the game by how it is being played. He adjusts offensively and defensively. He squats by the sideline controlling the game.

EagleD-

Go to the game and your questions will be answered and if you can not make it because you live in a place far far away tune in via internet. It is "way" evident you have not listened to or attended a game either, like Cooley.

When Texas Tech got Coach Knight everyone thought National Champs. Tech, as you all know is in a much better conference, has a better fan base going to their games (home/away), should have better recuiting than most Major conferences and definitely mid major conferences but no national championships and they have not come close.

I have seen some execelent coaches come and go over the years at NTSU and UNT. Spika (one of my all time favorites), Blakely(another of one of my all time favorites), Jankovich (I really liked him and did well for what UNT gave him) and I like JJ and he is doing a great job for what UNT is currently giving him (a crappy conference).

For those of you who want to degrade UNT BB but have NEVER been to a game then DO NOT POST HERE!!!!!!

UNTLifer · January 9, 2006

Lifer-
I am going to have to disagree with you.
IMHO, JJ does a great job adjusting the game by how it is being played. He adjusts offensively and defensively. He squats by the sideline controlling the game.
←

I could squat by the sideline, but that doesn't make me a coach.

eulesseagle · January 9, 2006

Lifer--

We are so old when we squat, you are right, it aint coachin' basketball but it is coachin' a big 'un.

My point is: JJ is a great coach, makes the necessary adjustments throughout the game and has a "game plan" to win. You can tell by the intensity that these kids play and being #3 in the nation in steals that JJ has a plan and has the guys are ready to play when they hit the "hardwood."

We are at that point and I am going to paraphrase Vic Trilli when he said, " you know your team is improving when your not getting beat by double digits anymore and your are only getting beat by single digits. You know your team is getting better when you are winning the close ones you were losing last year. You know you are getting better when you win the ones you are suppose to win and win all the close ones."

SUMG · January 10, 2006

Euless Eagle.....Cooley knows more about basketball than you ever will.

You're as gung ho about JJ now.....as you used to be about Dickey.

Hate to burst your bubble (and I know facts don't matter to you, just nonsensical hyperbole).....but we are 8-5 this year, after 13 games.

Want to guess what our record after 13 games last year was?

8-5.

And last year, we had only beaten one lower Division team to get to those 8 wins.....this year we have beaten three.

JJ better win some games early in conference play or he is screwed....because 6 of our last 7 conference games are on the road.

Anyway, you can keep pumping it out all you want....so far this year's team hasn't proven anything. It's not proven that it's any better than past JJ coached teams. Maybe they will....but so far they haven't.

Anyway, once again.......Cooley is "the man" when it comes to b-ball knowledge around here.

You on the other hand, think squatting on the sideline, somehow conveys controlling a game.

Wow.

SUMG · January 10, 2006

What do I want to see out of our basketball program?
1. Q. Continual progress (i.e. wins)
A. I think he's continually increased his wins. I'm too lazy today to look it up, but I think so.
Not exactly. His win totals are:
Year 1: 15
Year 2: 7
Year 3: 13
Year 4: 14
Year 5: 8 and counting
Hey I went to UNT, so I'm obviously no genius. But, if those yearly win totals were on some kind of chart......they wouldn't be going continually UP.

eulesseagle · January 10, 2006

SUMG-

I appreciate you taking up for Cooley. However, sounds as though there is a "lynch mob" forming to start bashing JJ.

In my opionion JJ is turning the team around. In your, obvious, opionion he is not and you are getting the posse ready.

You are right with me supporting DD and to date am the only one to set down parameters to keep him. These are: win 2 OOC games, run the belt and beat the #4 CUSA team in the NO Bowl. I have not seen any of yours!!

I want to remind you again what conference UNT is in: SUN BELT

You can "blow" all you want on how you think how easy it is to break the top 25 in BB and it may be in some other conference but UNT is a mid major in the SUN BELT!!!! Can it be done?? I think if anyone can do it JJ can. However, you want to play musical coaches, again.

JJ, like Jankovich before, is doing the best he can with the resources he has and in the conference we are in. Right now 8-5 looks pretty darn good. We could have easily been 11-2 except for the close calls we had against A&M, Houston and New Orleans. These were extremely close games and not like the "BLOW OUTS" that you want to try to compare JJ and his team with DD and his OOC loses of over 50 points. There is no comparison.

If you want to line up behind Cooley because he has BB knowledge then that is your line in the sand. It would be more prudent for you to start supporting JJ and the team and realize what our "REAL" current situation is: SUN BELT CONFERENCE, MID MAJOR, NO CURRENT OPENINGS AVAILABLE IN WAC, CUSA, BIG 12 ETC.

I do not mind supporting any coach that I think is doing the best he/she is doing under the situation that is placed upon them by this university. Yep, I supported DD and am still glad that I did. However, it is my opionion that I believe that DD has reached the apex of his college coaching career. I DO NOT think that of JJ. Look at the talent base of players he has. He has more depth, #3 in the nation in steals, this team has a little more intensity and plays like it. I see a lot of positive aspects of this years team than other teams. JJ has to fight the stigma of playing in the SBC, the Dante's Inferno, of D-1 college sports.

SUMG, if you want to start pursuading your minions to start "bashing" JJ then that is your business.

SUMG · January 10, 2006

SUMG-
I appreciate you taking up for Cooley. However, sounds as though there is a "lynch mob" forming to start bashing JJ.
In my opionion JJ is turning the team around. In your, obvious, opionion he is not and you are getting the posse ready.
You are right with me supporting DD and to date am the only one to set down parameters to keep him. These are: win 2 OOC games, run the belt and beat the #4 CUSA team in the NO Bowl. I have not seen any of yours!!
I want to remind you again what conference UNT is in: SUN BELT
You can "blow" all you want on how you think how easy it is to break the top 25 in BB and it may be in some other conference but UNT is a mid major in the SUN BELT!!!! Can it be done?? I think if anyone can do it JJ can. However, you want to play musical coaches, again.
JJ, like Jankovich before, is doing the best he can with the resources he has and in the conference we are in. Right now 8-5 looks pretty darn good. We could have easily been 11-2 except for the close calls we had against A&M, Houston and New Orleans. These were extremely close games and not like the "BLOW OUTS" that you want to try to compare JJ and his team with DD and his OOC loses of over 50 points. There is no comparison.
If you want to line up behind Cooley because he has BB knowledge then that is your line in the sand. It would be more prudent for you to start supporting JJ and the team and realize what our "REAL" current situation is: SUN BELT CONFERENCE, MID MAJOR, NO CURRENT OPENINGS AVAILABLE IN WAC, CUSA, BIG 12 ETC.
I do not mind supporting any coach that I think is doing the best he/she is doing under the situation that is placed upon them by this university. Yep, I supported DD and am still glad that I did. However, it is my opionion that I believe that DD has reached the apex of his college coaching career. I DO NOT think that of JJ. Look at the talent base of players he has. He has more depth, #3 in the nation in steals, this team has a little more intensity and plays like it. I see a lot of positive aspects of this years team than other teams. JJ has to fight the stigma of playing in the SBC, the Dante's Inferno, of D-1 college sports.
SUMG, if you want to start pursuading your minions to start "bashing" JJ then that is your business.
←

Euless......where do you come up with some of this stuff? When on this thread has anyone said that it's easy to be in the top 25 in basketball. Where? Several of us did say, that with the facility and our location, we should have a top 75 program.

No one said "Top 25."

So quit making stuff up.

Anyway, I hope we do finish out the year successfully. I'm just saying that in my mind, we haven't advanced the program this year.....YET. Maybe we will.

GMG!

Edited January 10, 2006 by SUMG