A Look Back

[Cooley]

http://michigan-football.com/ncaa/f/nthtexas.htm

[emmitt01]

Over the last five years we are 31-30. That includes seasons with 8,9,and 7 wins. So, even for all the accolades and bowl trips in a four year span Dickey is still about a .500 coach.

[TIgreen01]

Honest question (this is going to get me flamed, but I'm looking for someone with a historical perspective):

Was dropping out of the Missouri Valley Conference the all time bonehead move in the history of NT athletics?

Looking at that site, you can see the opponents we had in conference. Knowing where they are now, and the winding road we're having to take just to get back to their level, I think that you could say that that was the worst move ever in our history.

I understand we wanted into the SWC, but when that didn't work out we ultimately fell to I-AA and still haven't fully recovered. It could be argued that the move that set all that off was dropping out of this conference. Hayden Fry is glorified around here for the 5-6 years he was here and his gung-ho attitude....but didn't he really just quit on us? Or was the NT culture so bad that he really had no choice but to leave?

Edited December 22, 2005 by TIgreen01

[KingDL1]

Here is something I find interesting.

Since 1950.

Before Dickey we were 250-246-15 which gives us .504 overall winning percentage.

Look at what DD has given us 289-301-15 which gives us a .490 overall winning

percentage.

Thanks DD for making us losers.

Edited December 22, 2005 by KingDL1

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

Honest question (this is going to get me flamed, but I'm looking for someone with a historical perspective):

Was dropping out of the Missouri Valley Conference the all time bonehead move in the history of NT athletics? 

Looking at that site, you can see the opponents we had in conference.  Knowing where they are now, and the winding road we're having to take just to get back to their level, I think that you could say that that was the worst move ever in our history.

I understand we wanted into the SWC, but when that didn't work out we ultimately fell to I-AA and still haven't fully recovered.  It could be argued that the move that set all that off was dropping out of this conference.  Hayden Fry is glorified around here for the 5-6 years he was here and his gung-ho attitude....but didn't he really just quit on us?  Or was the NT culture so bad that he really had no choice but to leave?

←

Definitely not a bonehead move. If you'll look, Memphis and Cincinnati had already left the MVC and Louisville left the same year that we did. Wichita State never had much after the plane crash that wiped out their program. West Texas State was new to the conference. They had some quality players, but were never a major factor. Drake was teetering on the brink and they finally dropped out of Division I. New Mexico State was there but that's about it. Tulsa was the only quality program left at the time.

So, had we stayed, we'd have been in a six-team conference with Tulsa, Wichita State, Drake, West Texas State and New Mexico State with three of those programs soon dropping from the top division. Also, the conference had no bowl tie-in so we were no worse off being independent.

Hayden didn't quit on us; we quit (or never really started) on him.

[ntmeangreen11]

UT 1976 L 17-14

UT 1978 L 16-26

What if?

[greensteve]

Here is something I find interesting.

Since 1950.

Before Dickey we were 250-246-15 which gives us .504 overall winning percentage.

Look at what DD has given us 289-301-15 which gives us a .490 overall winning

percentage.

Thanks DD for making us losers.

You can find whale shit at the bottem of the ocean too...its kinda interesting!!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[PerryG2480]

It's funny that in some of the worst times in our history (1999) we were able to beat Boise State and Texas Tech...what if we were to accomplish OOC wins like that these days?

[PlummMeanGreen]

Honest question (this is going to get me flamed, but I'm looking for someone with a historical perspective):

Was dropping out of the Missouri Valley Conference the all time bonehead move in the history of NT athletics? 

Looking at that site, you can see the opponents we had in conference.  Knowing where they are now, and the winding road we're having to take just to get back to their level, I think that you could say that that was the worst move ever in our history.

I understand we wanted into the SWC, but when that didn't work out we ultimately fell to I-AA and still haven't fully recovered.  It could be argued that the move that set all that off was dropping out of this conference.  Hayden Fry is glorified around here for the 5-6 years he was here and his gung-ho attitude....but didn't he really just quit on us?  Or was the NT culture so bad that he really had no choice but to leave?

←

You've been listening to some "non-progressive" old timers in Denton who wouldn't know Big Time football if it stepped up and bit them in the ass as far as suggessting NT's dropping out of the Mo' Valley membership was a bonehead decision. Fry left Denton for a Big 10 job. Who wouldn't have done the same? In a strange sort of way, it's a good thing when you lose your head football coach to (really) big time schools because that means they probably were doing big time things in Denton over a period of time (but against high profile schools, of course). Seems success against low profile schools doesn't seem to impress those Big Time schools looking for head football coaches and I think that has been proven of late in Denton, Texas.

Not the first time we've heard all this on NT's leaving the MVC. Yet the all time bone-head decisions I'm afraid are being made now at UNT. Why? Check out our successes (with even much closer losses back in the day) against high profile football schools during the Fry era compared to (so called) success against the sisters of the poor football schools we are now playing. An NT Football Media Guide pretty well tells the tale of all this for those who would dare to read it to see the comparisons.

Some of us who were students when UNT dropped out of the Mo' Valley would say that it was not a bonehead decision at all. In fact, it would have been a bonehead decision to stay in the MVC for the changes it would soon be making (as far as its membership was concerned. Hellsbells, I even remember as an NT student driving near the present Denton C of C building near Carroll Blvd. and seeing a huge sign on wheels from one Denton business that said: " We Support Independent, Hayden!" Also, I never heard anyone on campus say other-wise.

And being one who frequently drank coffee at the Denton Square as an NT student, I also remember talking to the "boys downtown" on this and they were almost 100% in support of Hayden Fry's decision to leave the Mo' Valley. Check out the Mo' Valley of that era to understand why. Also, keep in mind that the Mo' Valley did not have a bowl tie for its football champion, either. If that had been the case, it may have been a more difficult decision for Fry to have dropped NT out of the MVC . In fact, Memphis and Louisville may have delayed their leaving the MVC as well had there been a bowl tie-in.

Honestly, I think all was on schedule for Fry's grandiose plans for NT being a major independent because he felt back then that we would have a better chance of getting into the SWC after having a successful run as a major indenpendent than as a Mo Valley football champion. Fry always had a grand plan for most anything he did. He didn't just sit around and make knee-jerk decisions that didn't have a purpose. He also had entertaining (and D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E-D) football teams, too. You knew whoever he would recruit would receive good coaching, would develop their skills post their HS/JUCO careers and play disciplined football in Denton.

Fry also saw that being successful in the (then) Missouri Valley Conferrence of that day would not generate much interest from the SWC people. At the time, Fry did not realize how strongly the private SWC schools would be against UNT (or any large state university for that matter) coming in as its 10'th member. They would not want to lose their 4 school voting bloc power and adding UNT (or any other state assisted school) would have created a voting imbalance even moreso for them as far as SWC matters were concerned.

Yet as far as our NT football schedules as a major independent, if one would look at their NT Football Media Guide they would soon observe that there were many more higher profile opponents on our schedule back most of whom we were competitive with on the football field (with no comparative facilities, either). FWIW, I can't recall that we ever played any present SBC schools (save ASU and ULaLa) during that era. Not sure many of us knew about most of them, least of all where they were located. Now we find ouselves right smack dab in the middle of that group as a league member. Wouldn't be so bad if we were all ranked somewhere in the Top 80 of the NCAA D1-A than where the SBC presently resides.

Also, count in rarely considered factors now that during the Hayden Fry era how there was a much smaller Denton (40K pop. then/100K today), a much smaller Denton County (99K pop. then/approx. 560K today), a much smaller NT enrollment (17K enrollment back then/32K today) and an NT that was really more a commuter school at the time with fewer dorms and apartments near our campus; and (for certain) a much smaller DFW NT alumnus base (probably half the number we presently have in the Metroplex).

All the aforementioned constituencies still did not partner with Big Dreamer (and future College Football Hall of Fame coach) Hayden Fry to give his dream a fighting chance. Wish we had the demographics and numbers we have today as it would have made a big difference because of the charismatic leader that Fry was. It just stands to reason had our Pied Piper had todays much larger NT constituencies, he would have had more who would have joined his parade. His first few weeks in Denton, he went out and raised what would be the equivalence of $1,000,000.oo for the NT athletic coffers. Yet Hayden Fry still did this with practically no viable football facilities on our campus. Quite a remarkable thing he did even considerring that alone.

The Missouri Valley Conference that AD Hayden Fry took us out of was beginning to evolve into what you see of that league today. Memphis and Louisville would soon follow our lead in gettting out of the MVC and we are not talking about the upward bound Memphis and UL football programs of today, either. They were also trying to decide back then if they wanted to raise it up a knotch or 2 in NCAA D1-A football. So FWIW, its was the Missouri Valley football connection that kept all 3 of our schools from doing so and which created the very reasons all 3 schools would leave the MVC.

Edited December 23, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[VideoEagle]

The only real negative about leaving the MVC was basketball.

If we'd been in a conference with the record we racked up in basketball back then, we would have gone to the NCAA or NIT several times. And back then, the NIT really WAS something! Remember, the NCAA only took 32 teams back then.

[CMJ]

In fact we almost assuredly would have made the NCAA or NIT in the late 70's if we were in the Valley when we were top 25. There are more ways of getting noticed by "big time" conferences than just football Plum.

Who the hell had ever heard of Gonzaga before 1999? I know I'm younger than alot of you, but my Mom wrote for the Daily back in the Golden Age on NT athletics. In fact she was the beat writer for Blakely's team during a large section of either '76 or '77(she went into labor with my brother while attending NT/SMU in January of '77).

I grew up listening to how leaving the MVC was a mistake and I tend to agree.

[PlummMeanGreen]

In fact we almost assuredly would have made the NCAA or NIT in the late 70's if we were in the Valley when we were top 25.  There are more ways of getting noticed by "big time" conferences than just football Plum. 

Who the hell had ever heard of Gonzaga before 1999?  I know I'm younger than alot of you, but my Mom wrote for the Daily back in the Golden Age on NT athletics.  In fact she was the beat writer for Blakely's team during a large section of either '76 or '77(she went into labor with my brother while attending NT/SMU in January of '77).

I grew up listening to how leaving the MVC was a mistake and I tend to agree.

←

Come on now CMJ, please do reveal that you also grew up in a Track & Field oriented Mean Green family. Mean Green football to most of the minor sports people at UNT in decade's past has most always been the big (necessary) evil; although the part that many times gets un-noticed or swept under the carpet is that it has usually been football and some of those big money games that helped to fund most of NT's minor sports, that is, if they weren't cut due to Title IX demands.

AND.....just look at the present membership of the Missouri Valley Conference for anyone who thinks UNT, Memphis and Louisville all 3 made mistakes by leaving that league all around the same time. So UNT was not alone in this "leaving the MVC" venture, its just that the other 2 schools didn't wave the white flag and retreat in football as UNT did post-Fry of which we still are suffering in many ways like say in, uh, our difficulties in getting in leagues we would really prefer to be in? All that became reality for us now because post-Fry we did retreat in football to such an extent that schools we even perceive ourselves to better than in football (until this football season reared its ugly head) are getting the conference invites we each and everyone covetted.

The age old problem in Denton is that we didn't hire personnel who could carry Hayden Fry's jock strap once he left and most of them who would try either as AD or head football coach became some of the very ones who would lead the parade in becoming Fry's biggest critics because they knew they couldn't carry his jock strap (and still can't even today). And yes, the "bonehead" decision of leaving the MVC usually became that groups big battle cry towards Fry. How utterly silly and futile all that seems today as we look at all the national attention NORTH TEXAS of that era had never had; and that was during a time when small conferences (like the MVC or today's SBC) did not have bowl tie-ins for its football champions.

Yet it was all of the aforementioned NT leader's Small Dreams post-Fry's career in Denton that pretty well got us where we are today, ie, the SBC/Bottom 10 of which being at the top of that league still seems to be just what the doctor ordered for some who don't think UNT can do better or even deserves better. Yet isn't it proven leaders (not projects) that 99% of the time are the ones who take your athletic program forward or to the next level? If they just happen to have charisma, that is an added bonus (and a season tickets seller at most places).

So you who are still in your 30's, please, please, please consider to start raising some well-placed hell to the appropriate ones on campus so you won't be like some of us who are now in our 50's (or older) and with many of our group still wanting to know why our alma mater hasn't progressed in football with high profile wins (or at least) being able to play those kind of schools closer as we did in the 1970's for the most part.

BACK TO THE MISSOURI VALLEY CONFERENCE: Of course, the much lower profile look of today's MVC may remind some of you of the Sun Belt Conference so in a sense I'd understand why some who are judging all this 30 plus years later (with 20/20 hindsight, of course) may have thought we (in deed) made a mistake by leaving a conference that has schools with not much higher profiles than most of the schools in our present league.

Of course, had we not left the Missouri Valley Conference (a league with no bowl tie-in), our biggest victory may then have been over Drake or Bradley or Wichita State (all MVC'ers who have since dropped football) rather than the University of Tennessee Volunteers in only our 2'nd season out of the MVC. We also for the first time in our history were able to schedule games against the Texas Longhorns as a major independent, too. So anyone tell me if Fry made a bone-head decision by giving us a chance to even tee it up in Knoxville, Tennessee, and with a chance to win that football game (which we did) if you don't think "high profile" football is the engine that drives the train at any NCAA D1-A school (which it does whether one accepts that fact nor not).

Yet even today, much of this goes back to what good ol' Jerry Moore of Appalachian State said just days ago when asked if his school ever aspired to be in NCAA D1-A (and I quote him liberally): "If a school doesn't want to budget and be in at least the Top 80 schools of NCAA D1-A, then 1-AA is a better place to be." So come on, North Texans, lets do whatever it takes to become part of that Top 80 (preferably) higher that Jerry Moore spoke about.

Wonder if our present UNT powers-that-be read that quote from ex UNT head football coach Jerry Moore and soaked it in? If not, some of you who may know our campus "leaders" personally might want to consider sending them a note with that quote from Jerry Moore.

Edited December 23, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[CMJ]

Come on now CMJ, please do reveal that you also grew up in a Track & Field oriented Mean Green family.   Mean Green football to most of the minor sports people at UNT in decade's past has most always been the big (necessary) evil; although the part that many times gets un-noticed or swept under the carpet is that it has usually been football and some of those big money games that helped to fund most of NT's minor sports, that is,  if they weren't cut due to Title IX demands.

I sure as hell did. My father was a four year letterman in cross country and track. I really don't think that influences the way I look at the Missouri Valley because it didn't exactly have the best of the best in those sports to my knowledge.

I mentioned the basketball connection because my Mom used to count Blakely, Tubbs, and the rest of them among her friends. She was in Blakely's office when he found out he didn't get a bid to the NCAA or the NIT. She apparently wasn't just "the press" to him, since she was the only one. When Jimmy Gales was coach in the 80's he'd still stop my folks when he saw them around town and ask about all of us. Hey, I don't wanna name drop or anything, that wasn't my point. I'm just saying it's not like my folks are dumb alumni. I grew up with green blood for cripes sakes.

AND.....just look at the present membership of the Missouri Valley Conference for anyone who thinks UNT, Memphis and Louisville all 3 made mistakes by leaving that league all around the same time. So UNT was not alone in this "leaving the MVC" venture, its just that the other 2 schools didn't wave the white flag and retreat in football as UNT did post-Fry of which we still are suffering in many ways like say in, uh, our difficulties in getting in leagues we would really prefer to be in?  All that became reality for us now because post-Fry we did retreat in football to such an extent that schools we even perceive ourselves to better than in football (until this football season reared its ugly head) are getting the conference invites we each and everyone covetted.

While that may be true, why is it that many of the MVC opponents ended up in CUSA though? The Metro 8 which was the forerunner of CUSA in many ways was primarily a basketball league. Do you really think that if we'd stayed in the MVC we wouldn't have been invited into that conference by our former mates?

The age old problem in Denton is that we didn't hire personnel who could carry Hayden Fry's jock strap once he left and most of them who would try either as AD or head football coach became some of the very ones who would lead the parade in becoming Fry's biggest critics because they knew they couldn't carry his jock strap (and still can't even today).   And yes,  the "bonehead" decision of leaving the MVC usually became that groups big battle cry towards Fry.  How utterly silly and futile all that seems today as we look at all the national attention NORTH TEXAS of that era had never had; and that was during a time when small conferences  (like the MVC or today's SBC) did not have bowl tie-ins for its football champions.

Leaving the MVC left us without the national attention of the NCAA or the NIT which are big deals. Playing an independent schedule in basketball destoryed our chances at an at large bid into the NCAA, and the NIT wouldn't give us a shot because they typically took "known" programs so they could be assured of selling out on campus games. The NIT was almost given as much attention as the NCAA up thru the mid 70's - so even if we hadn't been invited to the "Big Dance" we would've gotten alot of ink. Who knows where a consistent top 25 program would've gotten us?

Yet it was all of the aforementioned NT leader's Small Dreams post-Fry's career in Denton that pretty well got us where we are today, ie, the SBC/Bottom 10 of which being at the top of that league still seems to be just what the doctor ordered for some who don't think UNT can do better or even deserves better.  Yet isn't it proven leaders (not projects) that 99% of the time are the ones who take your athletic program forward or to the next level?  If they just happen to have charisma, that is an added bonus (and a season tickets seller at most places).

The SBC is pretty crappy in football no arguments there. But the money we were losing playing independent schedules in all sports made us crawl on our hands and knees to the Southland. THAT'S what has crippled us ever since. Hayden Fry was the best AND worst thing that ever happened to us(sorta like my college sweetheart is for me ).

So you who are still in your 30's, please, please, please consider to start raising some well-placed hell to the appropriate ones on campus so you won't be like some of us who are now in our 50's (or older) and with many of our group still wanting to know why our alma mater hasn't progressed in football with high profile wins (or at least) being able to play those kind of schools closer as we did in the 1970's for the most part.

No arguments there. But basketball could be just as imortant.

BACK TO THE MISSOURI VALLEY CONFERENCE:   Of course, the much lower profile look of today's MVC may remind some of you of the Sun Belt Conference so in a sense I'd understand why some who are judging all this 30 plus years later (with 20/20 hindsight, of course) may have thought we (in deed) made a mistake by leaving a conference that has schools with not much higher profiles than most of the schools in our present league.

No, as I said it's because we blew our chance at the metro 8, which begat CUSA which is where 95% of our fanbase wishes we were today.

Of course, had we not left the Missouri Valley Conference (a league with no bowl tie-in), our biggest victory may then have been over Drake or Bradley or Wichita State (all MVC'ers who have since dropped football) rather than the University of Tennessee Volunteers in only our 2'nd season out of the MVC.  We also for the first time in our history were able to schedule games against the Texas Longhorns as a major independent, too.  So anyone tell me if Fry made a bone-head decision by giving us a chance to even tee it up in Knoxville, Tennessee, and with a chance to win that football game (which we did) if you don't think "high profile" football is the engine that drives the train at any NCAA D1-A school (which it does whether one accepts that fact nor not).

Actually football is not the train that drives money at any D1-A school. There are quite a few schools where basketball is the meal ticket. And there are others where both are equally important. The football drives everything in the universe mantra is a myth, typically perpetuated by southerners who don't know any other sport exists. Sure, winning at Tennessee and San Diego State(really probably our biggest win since they were top 25 at the time - see I'm sorta well versed in history even if I'm just a kid in your eyes) were huge for us. As were near misses against Texas in the 70's. Were those memories worth our time in the wilderness?

Only someone with the charisma of Fry could have kept us viable as an independent for very long. You are correct in that no one has been around since could do half of what he did. On the other hand, once he left we were doomed to flail around like a fish out of water. Life as an independent is very hard unless you're a Notre Dame.

Yet even today, much of this goes back to what good ol' Jerry Moore of Appalachian State said just days ago when asked if his school ever aspired to be in NCAA D1-A (and I quote him liberally):  "If a school doesn't want to budget and be in at least the Top 80 schools of NCAA D1-A, then 1-AA is a better place to be."   So come on, North Texans, lets do whatever it takes to become part of that Top 80 (preferably) higher that Jerry Moore spoke about.

Wonder if our present UNT powers-that-be read that quote from ex UNT head football coach Jerry Moore and soaked it in?  If not, some of you who may know our campus "leaders" personally might want to consider sending them a note with that quote from Jerry Moore.

←

I think most of us want to be higher than top 80. Sure the Sunbelt is a terrible 1A FB conference. Guess what? When I was a kid the MAC was perceived as a joke. The WAC was too, except for Brigham Young(this was pre Mountain West of course). So was CUSA its first few years. Growing pains(and with the MAC that's been around forever not even growing pains) are fairly normal for "start up" conferences. As usual, reading betwen the lines, what you're really after is canning Dickey since "he can only heat the worst of the worst".

You've mentioned before about us being the only school that would still have a coach with a losing record after 8 seasons. Ever heard of Frank Beamer? He didn't hit .500 at Virginia tech till I believe his 10th year. The coach at Northern Illinois(sorry his name escapes me) finished his 10th season. He' still not .500 despite a top 25 season acouple years back. I know there are others but they're escaping me. My point is not defending Dickey, because if we go 2-9 next year I'll probably be right there with ya pitchfork in hand, but seriously - your pedantic rants aren't solving anything.

Do something constructive, like follow the basketball teams. I hear our women might be good this season.

Edited December 23, 2005 by CMJ

[TIgreen01]

Good responses. I'm glad I posted the question...I wasn't even born when most of this took place and all you ever see on the board are people who hate SMU for screwing us out of the SWC...nobody ever seems to question the direction we took and Fry's quick departure after it fell apart.

So...I guess another question is when did the NCAA bball tourney REALLY become "the big dance"....was it '79 with Magic-Bird? Was bball even viable back then?...when Fry dropped us out of arguably the top bball conf in the land? Could he have predicted what bball and the NCAA tourney soon would become? Or was he just a football guy who didn't care about the other sports?

[GrandGreen]

Yes the decision to drop out of the MVC was what has held NT back! It didn't have anything to do with failure to capitalize on what few athletic successes NT has managed and allowing the football team to go to 1aa. Past NT administrations have continually dropped the ball.

At one time, NT basketball program was one of the best in the state. NT constructed a great new arena and hired Blakeley and the future never looked brighter despite gettting out of the MVC. At the same time Fry developed a winning football program. The NT administation was unable or unwilling to adquately fund either sport. Blakeley was ultimatily fired after complainting too much about lack of funding. Fry went for a better opportunity leaving a winning team with almost all players returning for the next year. NT administration hired Jerry Moore, and placed more emphasis on getting under budget than winning.

I have heard that NT could have remained 1a with a minimun of effort, but decided that 1aa suited them welll and they could reduce the athletic budget even more.

It is my strong opinion that failure to be included in conferences like the Metro Eight had more to do with the will of NT administration than any conference affiliation. Dr. Pohl and the current BOD deserve a lot of credit for recognizing the important of a competitive athletic program, it is sad that type of vision has been most uncommon in NT's history.

[PlummMeanGreen]

   You've mentioned before about us being the only school that would still have a coach with a losing record after 8 seasons.  Ever heard of Frank Beamer?  He didn't hit .500 at Virginia tech till I believe his 10th year.  The coach at Northern Illinois(sorry his name escapes me) finished his 10th season.  He' still not .500 despite a top 25 season acouple years back.  I know there are others but they're escaping me.  My point is not defending Dickey, because if we go 2-9 next year I'll probably be right there with ya pitchfork in hand, but seriously - your pedantic rants aren't solving anything.

Do something constructive, like follow the basketball teams.  I hear our women might be good this season.  

←

A BELATED RESPONSE:

CMJ, to respond to your last paragraph, I feel I am doing something positive by pointing out many things that bear being looked at and examined with our program. Basically, I am doing the same now others did with me on the DD situation even when I was giving it the good ol' college try in supporting the direction of our program under him. Even then, I was hardly ever comfortable with much of what I was observing with our football program in general.

Yet with me all I did was take off those green tinted glasses for about a minute, checked out who we lost to in OOC this last season (and by how much) and then the clincher for me I found in the NT FB Media Guide and that was looking at who we lost to even during most of our bowl years (can we all say "1-AA" schools in unison here)?

Some of those 1-AA schools had they been in the SBC (as they are now) we would probably not be discussing any of this now at all because they would (most likely) have gone to the NO's Bowl most of those 4 years instead of us (since they beat us head to head) and DD's under .500 record coupled with his poor and very well documented (and radio broadcasted) public relation abilities with our fan base (that now seems to have infected other employees presently in the NT Athletic Department). FWIW, have they all forgotten who their customers are out here?

Anyway, if all those schools who beat us during our bowl years had been in the SBC , I feel even at UNT there would have been a change of our head football coaching position. What gets my goat with much of this is how many want all this to have some kind of Hollywood happy ending with DD (still) only getting back to the top of the SBC/Bottom 10. Folks, we've been there before yet still could not even smell Top 25 and could not beat the 4'th place CUSA football teams in our last 2 bowl appearances. Is that really what will float most of your boats out there with our alma mater's football program?

Once again, I hope when you young gun alums are in your 50's and after many of you having had all the high expectations (& those seemedly a bit low at times during the DD era); anyway, hopefully when yall hit the half century mark that you will see an NT football program that is way further down the road than anytime in its history and you all don't have to experience the roller coaster ride many of us Baby Boomers (and olders) NT alums have seen with all this the last 20 plus years.

Some of us of the 1970's who saw a different style of leadership and for darn sure a different type of (innovative) offense, have just seen little since then that could hardly be called media attention grabbing progress since we were playing and beating (or at least playing closer) higher profile teams on our schedules during most of the 1970's.

Honestly, most of our group just thought we would be (at the minimum) exceeding successes of the 1970's era as would be the normal progression at most NCAA D1-A outposts--but at UNT, we are infamous for going 3 giant steps forward, then 5 giant steps backwards and those backward steps usually having everything to do with who we hire. Ask UTEP about hiring, it really is key or strategic proven performers at high levels who turn programs around and take programs to prior unseen levels (at least in football, for the Miners). But at UTEP, they seem to want all this more than some of our own who are more than content at being at the top of the SBC, playing the 4'th place CUSA team in a bowl and NOT even being able to smell any semblance of a Top 25 ranking.

Also, comparing our situation to Frank Beamer's situation is like comparing the Bad News Bears to the Boston Red Sox. Little that we do at the level we do it at can ever really be compared to many programs who operated at a much higher level than we. I would think that Coach Beamer's bosses,ie, his athletic director with the VT board of regents approval) saw something with his program that indicated a positive trend of good things to come.

I see no such trend at UNT at this point in light of 1-AA losses (which few on this forum seem to ever consider with all this) and those even during bowl years, our overall recruiting of the last 3 or so years which this Fall more than proved has not even been at the level of La Tech or Tulsa (as most of us had previously thought) and then culminating with a football program coming off of 4 bowl years in a row to the bottom of the SBC/Bottom 10 this Fall. A football program that recruits well every year doesn't got to 4 bowl games in a row then suddenly to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom of NCAA D1-A in one year.

So does all this show a football program that has been built on a solid foundation? All the aforementioned trends mentioned above I feel bear more serious thought than NT's (always) biggest nemisis, ie, apathy is allowing to transpire. Amazingly, that same apathy at NORTH TEXAS has also been some of our NT athletic employees (present and past) ace in the hole for a continuance of a mediocre performance. 17 years on the NT payroll by our NT women's head basketball coach who (herself) is still under .500 is about as good example of this NT "employee-friendly" apathy as one can come up with as a prime example.

Yet is anyone else ever curious why our average football attendance most every year (even after 4 bowl years) still hovers around 15K plus? With the enormous UNT constituency, ie, our enrollment, DFW NT Exas, Denton County population (larger than New Orleans even before Katrina); anyway, this is a total abomination. Some of you years ago coined something called "Dickey Ball" and most know what the true interrpretation of that is by now and it has something to do with "non-innovativeness on the offensive side of the football. OFFENSE? Where our Mean Green offenses rank most every year among all others in NCAA D1-A is a pretty big clue on that, too.

With Fouts Field being half full (hey, I could have said, uh, "half empty" most each game of most each football seaosn in Denton, are we still really content with the product we are getting that many times allows you observe borderline or casual NT fans (you know, the ones we need to fill the other half of Fouts?); anyway, you see many of that group looking disgusted when they are witnessing a not so remarkable performance in most of our season home openers under DD and those openers a golden opp to impress first time fans. But go to your car at half time and you will observe many of these Mean Green curisoity seekers people leaving with many of us assuming we won't see them again any particular footbal season.

I never, never, never diss NT football players and haven't since I've been a member of this forum, but they have to be given the chance to use their talents in disciplined, innovative ways that gives them a chance to win in the first quarter, the 2'nd quarter, the 3'rd quarter and the, uh.............4'th quarter. Wherever this non-aggressive (almost passive) "we want to put our football players in a position to win in the 4'th quarter" philosophy came from needs to go back to its very origins and put in file 13. A football program in today's NCAA D1-A cannot be successful with such a philosophy (unless its operating toward the bottom of the 1-A heap). Yet (again) that type of philosophy (expecially) on the offensive side of the ball, tends to keep a D1-A offense ranked in the 90's all the way up to #119 among NCAA D1-A schools most any year. The NT Football Media Guide is full of interesting facts and figures for those of you who will dare take off your green-tinted glasses for a few minutes to check them out.

Here's That Same Question Again: So just why is it that we annually hover around 15K plus per home game at Fouts Field and that even after 4 bowl games, too?

Edited December 26, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[MeanGreen61]

A BELATED RESPONSE:

CMJ, to respond to your last paragraph, I feel I am doing something positive by pointing out many things that bear being looked at and examined with our program.  Basically,  I am doing the same now others did with me on the DD situation even when I was giving it the good ol' college try in supporting the direction of our program under him.   Even then, I was hardly ever comfortable with much of what I was observing with our football program in general.

Yet with me all I did was take off those green tinted glasses for about a minute,  checked out who we lost to in OOC this last season (and by how much) and then the clincher for me I found in the NT FB Media Guide and that was looking at who we lost to even during most of our bowl years (can we all say "1-AA" schools in unison here)?   

Some of those 1-AA schools had they been in the SBC (as they are now)  we would probably not be discussing any of this now at all because they would (most likely) have gone to the NO's Bowl most of those 4 years instead of us (since they beat us head to head) and DD's under .500 record coupled with his poor and very well documented (and radio broadcasted) public relation abilities with our fan base (that now seems to have infected other employees presently in the NT Athletic Department).  FWIW, have they all forgotten who their customers are out here?

Anyway, if all those schools who beat us during our bowl years had been in the SBC , I feel even at UNT there would have been a change of our head football coaching position.   What gets my goat with much of this is how many want all this to have some kind of Hollywood happy ending with DD (still) only getting back to the top of the SBC/Bottom 10.  Folks, we've been there before yet still could not even smell Top 25 and could not beat the 4'th place CUSA football teams in our last 2 bowl appearances.     Is that really what will float most of your boats out there with our alma mater's football program?

Once again, I hope when you young gun alums are in your 50's and after many of you having had all the high expectations (& those seemedly a bit low at times during the DD era);  anyway, hopefully when yall hit the half century mark that you will see an NT football program that is way further down the road than anytime in its history and you all don't have to experience the roller coaster ride many of us Baby Boomers (and olders) NT alums have seen with all this the last 20 plus years. 

Some of us of the 1970's who saw a different style of leadership and for darn sure a different type of (innovative) offense, have just seen little since then that could hardly be called media attention grabbing progress since we were playing and beating (or at least playing closer) higher profile teams on our schedules during most of the 1970's.  

Honestly,  most of our group just thought we would be (at the minimum) exceeding successes of the 1970's era as would be the normal progression at most NCAA D1-A outposts--but at UNT, we are infamous for going 3 giant steps forward, then 5 giant steps backwards and those backward steps usually having everything to do with who we hire.  Ask UTEP about hiring, it really is key or strategic proven performers at high levels who turn programs around and take programs to prior unseen levels (at least in football, for the Miners).  But at UTEP, they seem to want all this more than some of our own who are more than content at being at the top of the SBC, playing the 4'th place CUSA team in a bowl and NOT even being able to smell any semblance of a Top 25 ranking.

Also, comparing our situation to Frank Beamer's situation is like comparing the Bad News Bears to the Boston Red Sox.  Little that we do at the level we do it at can ever really be compared to many programs who operated at a much higher level than we.  I would think that Coach Beamer's bosses,ie, his athletic director with the VT board of regents approval) saw something with his program that indicated a positive trend of good things to come. 

I see no such trend at UNT at this point in light of 1-AA losses (which few on this forum seem to ever consider with all this) and those even during bowl years, our overall recruiting of the last 3 or so years which this Fall more than proved has not even been at the level of La Tech or Tulsa (as most of us had previously thought) and then culminating with a football program coming off of 4 bowl years in a row to the bottom of the SBC/Bottom 10 this Fall.   A football program that recruits well every year doesn't got to 4 bowl games in a row then suddenly to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom of NCAA D1-A in one year. 

So does all this show a football program that has been built on a solid foundation?  All the aforementioned trends mentioned above I feel bear more serious thought than NT's (always) biggest nemisis, ie, apathy is allowing to transpire.  Amazingly, that same apathy at NORTH TEXAS has also been some of our NT athletic employees (present and past) ace in the hole for a continuance of a mediocre performance.  17 years on the NT payroll by our NT women's head basketball coach who (herself) is still under .500 is about as good example of this NT "employee-friendly" apathy as one can come up with as a prime example.

Yet is anyone else ever curious why our average football attendance most every year (even after 4 bowl years) still hovers around 15K plus?  With the enormous UNT constituency, ie, our enrollment, DFW NT Exas, Denton County population (larger than New Orleans even before Katrina);  anyway, this is a total abomination.   Some of you years ago coined something called "Dickey Ball" and most know what the true interrpretation of that is by now and it has something to do with "non-innovativeness on the offensive side of the football.  OFFENSE?  Where our Mean Green offenses rank most every year among all others in NCAA D1-A is a pretty big clue on that, too.

With Fouts Field being half full (hey, I could have said, uh, "half empty"   most each game of most each football seaosn in Denton, are we still really content with the product we are getting that many times allows you observe borderline or casual NT fans (you know, the ones we need to fill the other half of Fouts?); anyway, you see many of that group looking disgusted when they are witnessing a not so remarkable performance in most of our season home openers under DD and those openers  a golden opp to impress first time fans.  But go to your car at half time and you will observe many of these Mean Green curisoity seekers people leaving with many of us assuming we won't see them again any particular footbal season.

I never, never, never diss NT football players and haven't since I've been a member of this forum, but they have to be given the chance to use their talents in disciplined, innovative ways that gives them a chance to win in the first quarter, the 2'nd quarter, the 3'rd quarter and the, uh.............4'th quarter.   Wherever this non-aggressive (almost passive)  "we want to put our football players in a position to win in the 4'th quarter" philosophy came from needs to go back to its very origins and put in file 13.  A football program in today's NCAA D1-A cannot be successful with such a philosophy (unless its operating toward the bottom of the 1-A heap).    Yet (again) that type of philosophy (expecially) on the offensive side of the ball, tends to keep a D1-A offense ranked in the 90's all the way up to #119 among NCAA D1-A schools most any year.  The NT Football Media Guide is full of interesting facts and figures for those of you who will dare take off your green-tinted glasses for a few minutes to check them out.

Here's That Same Question Again:  So just why is it that we annually hover around 15K plus per home game at Fouts Field and that even after 4 bowl games, too?

←

Geeze hammering away, even on Christmas Day

Edited December 26, 2005 by MeanGreen61