DRC South Dallas Campus/won't open 2007

OldTimer · December 1, 2005

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...y.14aeb880.html

PlummMeanGreen · December 1, 2005

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...y.14aeb880.html
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Any questions now? This really should concern all who graduated from UNT-Denton.

This campus will prevent UNT from building a new football stadium in Denton at at time we will really need that stadium. Bobby Ray and any of his NT Board of Regents would have to deny that, of course, but it is clearly a reasonable theory that even some of you have been fearing for awhile now with our SMU graduated Chancellor.

When has SMU ever been a positive for UNT? Maybe, uh, when we were trying to improve ourselves athletic conference-wise? Oh, I forgot, that was not one of those times when SMU was our friend. Just when have they been? Now we are hiring from "private university" SMU at the 4'th largest "public" university in Texas? Come on, Bobby boy, you are losing popularity votes with the very NT constituency and community that will be stuck with some of your decison-making, hiring habits and your non-ability to fire those who have become your new buddies, too.

SMU alumnus/UNT Chancellor "no-Phd" Lee Jackson will most likely play a very big part in the de-emphases of NCAA D1-A football at UNT-Denton. Will we all slumber with such an athletic de-emphases, too? Did any of you read "no Phd" Jackson's recent "obviously" skewed against NT Athletics survey? Were you impressed how NT Athletics was sort of an after-thought in the former Dallas County judge's survey and how he probably wants to see as "his" version of a future University of North Texas? Will SMU'ers everywhere rejoice?

We are getting zoomed once again at UNT, fellow alums, but maybe we should not stand still (and silent) this time?

After all, we are living proof of a Mean Green Nation that did such while allowing handful of yahoos from the state of Kansas (for crissakes') to run a QB sneak of a head football coaching hire on us 8 years ago. A hire whose continued under .500 8 year record may eventually be as harmful as Lee Jackson's big plans for a UNT-Dallas and his 'non-plans for UNT-Denton.

Someone please correct me with where I am wrong with most all this? I can be a good listener. Just wish we could get others on campus to listen to their very own UNT constituency, though.

GOD BLESS TEXAS (and to Dorothy & Toto: Do go ahead and just stay in Kansas).

Edited December 1, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

KingDL1 · December 1, 2005

It seems like a very poor location choice for a campus.

eulesseagle · December 1, 2005

plum--

You are right.....unfortunately i am having to agree with you more.

More and more is being spent on education and not enough for our football stadium. If UNT and Ray are in the process of getting $40,000,000 in bonds for a new academic facility in Fort Worth and purchasing a vacant building next to TCOM for about 4-5 million (i think that what the Fort Worthless Star Telegram was printing this week) then why can not they do the same for a new stadium??

IMHO, I really do not know if you can use bonds to build a stadium.

Who knows, in 2012-2013 DD may have to face a tough UNT-Dallas team.

The more I hear about all this SMU connection the angrier I get!!

1. Bobby Ray from SMU

2. DD from SMU

3. RF from SMU

4. SMU's dominance over UNT

5. I fell like UNT is becoming a step-child for SMU.

when is it going to stop???

I would like to take this time to appologize to the Mean Green Nation on that bogus post about UNT mulling over CUSA bid. I am sure that it upset a few and maybe made a few grin. Bordom at work yesterday. I appologize.

Eagle1855 · December 1, 2005

why do we even need a UNT-SoDal campus? I know that in here in Houston, UH has a UH-Downtown campus, but Im not even sure what the point of that is

Is there a need for an additional campus in dallas?

PlummMeanGreen · December 1, 2005

plum--
You are right.....unfortunately i am having to agree with you more.
More and more is being spent on education and not enough for our football stadium. If UNT and Ray are in the process of getting $40,000,000 in bonds for a new academic facility in Fort Worth and purchasing a vacant building next to TCOM for about 4-5 million (i think that what the Fort Worthless Star Telegram was printing this week) then why can not they do the same for a new stadium??
IMHO, I really do not know if you can use bonds to build a stadium.
Who knows, in 2012-2013 DD may have to face a tough UNT-Dallas team.
The more I hear about all this SMU connection the angrier I get!!
1. Bobby Ray from SMU
2. DD from SMU
3. RF from SMU
4. SMU's dominance over UNT
5. I fell like UNT is becoming a step-child for SMU.
when is it going to stop???
I would like to take this time to appologize to the Mean Green Nation on that bogus post about UNT mulling over CUSA bid. I am sure that it upset a few and maybe made a few grin. Bordom at work yesterday. I appologize.
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God bless you, eulesseagle! I knew you'd finally come around!

Seriously, though, it should encourage us all to see on this forum (whether we agree with each other or not) a helluva' lot of NT Exes and fans who do give a damn about all of our's alma mater and favorite sports team--the Mean Green of the University of North Texas.. That is most refreshing.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

December 1, 2005

why do we even need a UNT-SoDal campus? I know that in here in Houston, UH has a UH-Downtown campus, but Im not even sure what the point of that is
Is there a need for an additional campus in dallas?
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Dallas is the largest city in the nation to NOT have a public university within its city limits. Once UNT-Dallas can get up and running it will be a great asset to the UNT system. It is hard to get a population of students if you are only offering upper level courses and grad courses and your watered down campus. On top of that, most of the classes are extension courses where they watch video of the actual lecture taking place in Denton. I wouldn't go to a school like that. They are depending on community college transfers to enroll after they finish up their two years... That is a hard thing to sell in south Dallas.

I am confident it will be a GREAT asset to Dallas and UNT once it is up and running.

Eagle1855 · December 1, 2005

Dallas is the largest city in the nation to NOT have a public university within its city limits. Once UNT-Dallas can get up and running it will be a great asset to the UNT system. It is hard to get a population of students if you are only offering upper level courses and grad courses and your watered down campus. On top of that, most of the classes are extension courses where they watch video of the actual lecture taking place in Denton. I wouldn't go to a school like that. They are depending on community college transfers to enroll after they finish up their two years... That is a hard thing to sell in south Dallas.
I am confident it will be a GREAT asset to Dallas and UNT once it is up and running.
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Thanks- that makes sense. Sounds like a case of doing the right thing the wrong way. Hopefully this set back allows them to figure out the best way to meet the needs of the targeted demographic.

Also, the UNT-Dallas billboard leaving dallas looks great

PlummMeanGreen · December 1, 2005

Yet, fellas, it will still probably (at UNT) boil down to buIlding a state of the art campus in south Dallas County (only 15-20 miles from UTA BTW) while at the same time seeing monies that could be raised in Dallas for our main campus projects (both academic and athletic) going to south Dallas County instead.

UNT has a very small financial endowment to have ever accepted this challenge, but to me all this was similar to that guy who bought the brand new 2006 XJS Jaguar with all the fanfare, praise and smiles from all the chicks, but then came the matter of...........making the payments on that Jaguar.

Sorry to say this as an NT EX, but either TAMU or Texas Tech Systems presently have the kind of endowments that would most likely already would have had that campus off and running as a free standing university. They were the other 2 consideration by the south Dallas county officials led by Texas state senator (and ironic enough) ex UTA football player, ie, the honorable Royce West.

I fear we will all one day agree that UNT-Denton and "would be" projects at our main campus will be the eventual loser with the UNT-Dallas project.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

Edited December 1, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

Eagle1855 · December 1, 2005

Yet, fellas, it will still probably (at UNT) boil down to buIlding a state of the art campus in south Dallas County (only 15-20 miles from UTA BTW) while at the same time seeing monies that could be raised in Dallas for our main campus projects (both academic and athletic) going to south Dallas County instead.
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with 2 univeristies in our system, would we not be eligible for more monies from the state? Seems like UT and A&M both get mega bucks for their multi-school systems. Im fairly ignorant when it comes to the public education system with respects to funds, etc so bear with.

UNTX · December 1, 2005

The biggest concerns to me in that article are the mentioning of having a law school and pharmacy school at UNT-Dallas. No way those divisions, if they ever come to fruition, should be at the Dallas campus. I was disappointed when I first heard that our initial attempt at establishing a law school would have it located in downtown Dallas in the old municipal building instead of Denton. But at least that idea still had it connected to UNT-Denton.

Alumni shouldn't allow the Dallas campus to get a law school and pharmacy program over UNT Denton - but of course, our thoughts probably wouldn't be taken into consideration.

December 1, 2005

Alumni shouldn't allow the Dallas campus to get a law school and pharmacy program over UNT Denton - but of course, our thoughts probably wouldn't be taken into consideration.
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They would be their own campuses.

UNT Health Center isn't a part of UNT-Denton or Dallas. The law school would not be attached to the Dallas campus although it would be in Dallas (downtown). The pharmacy school would likely be attached to the UNT HSC in Ft. Worth.

December 1, 2005

(only 15-20 miles from UTA BTW)

It should also be noted that UNT is only 20 miles away from UTD. This logic doesn't matter. Should UTD have been stopped? The *only* undeveloped land left in Dallas is in South Dallas... it is the area that can and will grow. Two universities within 20 miles isn't a bad thing. Look at Boston and Atlanta for examples of how it works.

To a demographic of poorer population (students|south Dallas) 15 miles can be the difference between attending a class and not attending a class. When I was in school I lived within 1 miles of school -- because my car wouldn't start half the time.

Edited December 1, 2005 by JohnDenver

eeally · December 1, 2005

Seems there is plenty of room in Denton! Why not put a Law School in Denton. All we would need to do is annex some of the Music buildings and just like that an endowment foundation is formed. State Legislators have UNT ties. We finally field some majors that make some $. Gosh it seems like such a simple formula. Why can they not get it right.

Its like the title ix. If you offer a degree in Music then also offer an MBA. If you put out teachers then also put out some doctors and Lawyers. This university offers more liberal arts degrees than NYU. Why can we not meet in the middle and get a law school up in Denton? And as far as South Dallas yea that was a mistake. Just like putting a Law School in Dallas will be and a Pharmacy School in FT worth. Plant everything in Denton and let it grow! Its not like there is no growth going that way.

VideoEagle · December 1, 2005

Alright, let's begin with the reality of "grow or die." If NT was going to continue to be independent of UT or A&M, we needed to create a NT System. To be a "system" we needed two have at least two campuses undergrad campuses for some reason I forget.

Sen. Royce West worked had with the NT administration to keep the UT system from getting a south Dallas campus and getting it for us. Since there is a Republican majority in the Texas legislature, Sen. West needed to find Republican allies. Enter our Chancellor.

The big thing we still need to work on to be a really "system" is to add a law school. Lee Jackson is working on this as well. A big part of the argument is DFW is the largest market in the country without a public law school.

There are a lot of things going on that will greatly help NT overall. But, most of these things involve public (state) money. Any stadium must be built with private donations. You can not channel the money that would go into a South Dallas campus into a stadium.

greenjoe · December 1, 2005

Bobby Ray was mentioned a having a connection with SMU. I am not familiar with that connection. What is it ?

GrandGreen · December 1, 2005

I fail to see how building a school in South Dallas is going to keep UNT from building a stadium in Denton. State funds can be used for building academic buildings not athletic. The number of possible contributors to a stadium that would divert their gifts to UNT South would be very small imo.

The fact that it will eventully take students from the Denton campus is a given but how is this any worse than if the campus was under the UT, Tech or A&M flag. They where all interested in developing an university in Dallas. Last I heard the law school was being planned for downtown Dallas and could be an independent college separate from both the Denton and South Dallas universties.

I agree SMU as an entity has done as much as they can to hinder the development of NT, but to suggest that NT employees because they have some relationship with SMU in the past or present are intent on derailing NT is frankly silly.

Cooley · December 1, 2005

I don't see a reason to panic and blow things out of proportion. I want a New Football facility (In Denton) as bad as the next alum. I don't, however, expect the construction to commence at the expense of a needed 4-year public campus in Southern Dallas County.

The city of Dallas last year purchased 202 acres in southeast Oak Cliff and deeded it to UNT for development of the proposed campus. Another 62 acres has been added through gifts and purchases.

The 264-acre campus will be a significant intellectual and economic force in the region and shows the commitment to a first-class campus. Instead of bashing UNT's administrators on this issue, I commend them for their commitment to Oak Cliff, the City of Dallas, Dallas County and Ellis County and the surrounding area.

As a previous poster mentioned, the lower projections are a result of the limited number of undergrad classes currently available at the UNT Systems facility. Less than 2 miles away from the UNT Dallas site is Cedar Valley Community College of the Dallas County Community College District. Paul Quinn College is also only 2 miles away. Many current Denton students, from the area, have stated that they would prefer UNT Dallas but because of the lack of classes, they choose to commute

UTA's current provost and vice president for academic affairs, has stated that UTA has achieved dramatic growth in the last five years, and she doesn't see UNT Dallas as a threat.

She also feels that UNT Dallas and UTA will not be a competitive situation. In fact, they are trying to find more ways to partner to accommodate student demand. They also desire partnerships with UNT and she wishes UNT Dallas well.

UNT Denton, and others universities, are not new to setbacks and delays. The Texas Legislature recently failed to address a school finance bill that would have financed a new Business Admin building and dormitory. Dr Pohl had sought these funds for some time.

Over the years, no individual or effort has taken place to fund a new stadium. To now blame UNT Dallas as a reason to delay a new Fouts is not fair. A Darrell Dickeyless coached team may speed the funding efforts.

BTW, the 1st building (24 million) is under construction. As with a new Mean Green Village Stadium on a nice piece of prime real estate on the other side of 1-35, if you build it, the students will come.

NTEagle08 · December 1, 2005

I fail to see how building a school in South Dallas is going to keep UNT from building a stadium in Denton. State funds can be used for building academic buildings not athletic. The number of possible contributors to a stadium that would divert their gifts to UNT South would be very small imo.
The fact that it will eventully take students from the Denton campus is a given but how is this any worse than if the campus was under the UT, Tech or A&M flag. They where all interested in developing an university in Dallas. Last I heard the law school was being planned for downtown Dallas and could be an independent college separate from both the Denton and South Dallas universties.
I agree SMU as an entity has done as much as they can to hinder the development of NT, but to suggest that NT employees because they have some relationship with SMU in the past or present are intent on derailing NT is frankly silly.
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well said, I've thought this all along when I see people posting about UNT-Dallas' effect on getting a football stadium. Most of the money that will help build UNT-Dallas will come from the state in which can't be use for building athletic facilities.

UNT-Dallas will be more beneficial to the UNT system than harmful in the years to come. It increases ou visability and helps the system and UNT-Denton grow.

El Paso Eagle · December 1, 2005

plum--
You are right.....unfortunately i am having to agree with you more.
More and more is being spent on education and not enough for our football stadium. If UNT and Ray are in the process of getting $40,000,000 in bonds for a new academic facility in Fort Worth and purchasing a vacant building next to TCOM for about 4-5 million (i think that what the Fort Worthless Star Telegram was printing this week) then why can not they do the same for a new stadium??
IMHO, I really do not know if you can use bonds to build a stadium.
Who knows, in 2012-2013 DD may have to face a tough UNT-Dallas team.
The more I hear about all this SMU connection the angrier I get!!
1. Bobby Ray from SMU
2. DD from SMU
3. RF from SMU
4. SMU's dominance over UNT
5. I fell like UNT is becoming a step-child for SMU.
when is it going to stop???
I would like to take this time to appologize to the Mean Green Nation on that bogus post about UNT mulling over CUSA bid. I am sure that it upset a few and maybe made a few grin. Bordom at work yesterday. I appologize.
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OK who broke into Euless’s home and signed on to his computer?

Go_UTA · December 1, 2005

It is my understanding that the UT System had no interest in the south Dallas campus. I think it is pretty easy to understand why. 1) The System already has 2 components in north Texas (educating about 40,000 students currently). 2) There isn't a lot of extra political influence to be gained by adding a 3rd. 3) Of course, there are the dilution effects of money and attention.

Of course, the creation of the south Dallas campus was about politics. I think race was a decisive factor in the politics. Clearly, there was no pressing need. Certainly, Texas has a lot universities, and the budget allocated to state universities is getting thinner and thinner for everybody. (Which makes it not a great environment for a start-up.) Whether or not there is a state-supported institution actually inside the Dallas city limits isn't really very important, although that statement has naturally been made by Dallas officials. The region is already served by several fine public and private universities (including UNT).

I know UTA wasn't interested in the project. However, they didn't oppose it in any way, either. The provost at UTA was quoted the other day as saying it wasn't a competitive sitution and wished them well. Frankly, I don't think the place is going to take-off as is hoped. We are already seeing that, and the state doesn't have a lot of extra resources to invest.

I think UNT just wants to have system, and this was the opportunity that presented itself. This will be a third piece (along with the osteopathic medicine unit in Fort worth), which I would say is a minimum to be considered a credible system.

I don't really think the Dallas campus would necessarily inhibit a stadium project in Denton, but, of course, Plumm is right that there are resources being spent down there presently that could go to Denton. This may become less so once they become a university in their own right. There are start-up costs right now that have to be borne by UNT.

Personally, I think the state needs to concentrate on building up UNT, UTA, and UTD. All three of these can be truly great. We don't yet have a "great" university in the region, and we need 2 or 3.

The stadium funding may have to eventually come from some type of student fee alongside some hopefully supplemental gifts. This sounds like a tought thing to do exclusively from gifts. Anyway, this is just speculation on my part. You guys know more about this than I do. Good luck with it.

KingDL1 · December 2, 2005

It is my understanding that the UT System had no interest in the south Dallas campus. I think it is pretty easy to understand why. 1) The System already has 2 components in north Texas (educating about 40,000 students currently). 2) There isn't a lot of extra political influence to be gained by adding a 3rd. 3) Of course, there are the dilution effects of money and attention.
Of course, the creation of the south Dallas campus was about politics. I think race was a decisive factor in the politics. Clearly, there was no pressing need. Certainly, Texas has a lot universities, and the budget allocated to state universities is getting thinner and thinner for everybody. (Which makes it not a great environment for a start-up.) Whether or not there is a state-supported institution actually inside the Dallas city limits isn't really very important, although that statement has naturally been made by Dallas officials. The region is already served by several fine public and private universities (including UNT).
I know UTA wasn't interested in the project. However, they didn't oppose it in any way, either. The provost at UTA was quoted the other day as saying it wasn't a competitive sitution and wished them well. Frankly, I don't think the place is going to take-off as is hoped. We are already seeing that, and the state doesn't have a lot of extra resources to invest.
I think UNT just wants to have system, and this was the opportunity that presented itself. This will be a third piece (along with the osteopathic medicine unit in Fort worth), which I would say is a minimum to be considered a credible system.
I don't really think the Dallas campus would necessarily inhibit a stadium project in Denton, but, of course, Plumm is right that there are resources being spent down there presently that could go to Denton. This may become less so once they become a university in their own right. There are start-up costs right now that have to be borne by UNT.
Personally, I think the state needs to concentrate on building up UNT, UTA, and UTD. All three of these can be truly great. We don't yet have a "great" university in the region, and we need 2 or 3.
The stadium funding may have to eventually come from some type of student fee alongside some hopefully supplemental gifts. This sounds like a tought thing to do exclusively from gifts. Anyway, this is just speculation on my part. You guys know more about this than I do. Good luck with it.
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You are pretty much on the mark,

Part of my job is Demographics and that has to be one of the worst areas of the Dallas city limits to place a Campus. It makes no sense at all and is not thought out, if it is really important they should take advantage of the redevelopment in and around Downtown Dallas. Near where the Law school is supposed to go, it would help both Dallas and UNT with plenty of redevelopment money and land on the south edge of downtown.

Edited December 2, 2005 by KingDL1