DMN Article

Cerebus · November 29, 2005

There you go NC, straight from the mouth of Cerebus. The season would have been a lot different with Taylor at the helm.
And about that bridge in Arizona is it ocean front?
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Actually this year would have been alot different if Andrew Smith was at the helm.

I think that is why alot of the "apologists" have been willing to give Coach Dickey some slack *THIS YEAR*, and why alot of them are expecting so much more next year.

Monkeypox · November 29, 2005

Actually this year would have been alot different if Andrew Smith was at the helm.
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No, it wouldn't. First off, we lost Andrew Smith LAST YEAR. We didn't even come close to Zac Taylor, no matter what anyone says. Nebraska called him out of the blue in DECEMBER of last year, which, while late, isn't exactly the eleventh hour. He signed a LOI with them very soon afterwards, and committed on the first day he could. And if any of you truly believe he was considering us more than he was Marshall or Memphis, then you might want to get in on NCMeanGreen's real estate opportunities before they dry up.

And QB play, while not very good, was not nearly the problem that O-Line and D-Line play was, so unless Drew was gonna add a hundred pounds and become a lineman, I do not believe this year would have been a lot different.

All of these were problems that had a year or more to address, but that's the hallmark of our team's problems. They've been here for a decade. Unfortunately, so have the excuses.

Monkeypox · November 29, 2005

"There are concerns I have about areas with the program that I want to discuss with Coach Dickey in the next week so that we can keep this football program at a level that allows us to be respected across the country," Villarreal said. "This season was a big disappointment to him, the players and the fans. I want to make sure we are on the same page as to the reasons why that happened and how we can avoid that happening again."
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Working various state jobs over the years, you learn the language. This is Dickey's *ss over the fire.

Cerebus · November 29, 2005

We didn't even come close to Zac Taylor, no matter what anyone says.
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Just goign to have to disagree with you on that one.

And QB play, while not very good, was not nearly the problem that O-Line and D-Line play was, so unless Drew was gonna add a hundred pounds and become a lineman, I do not believe this year would have been a lot different.
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A consistent qb would have helped this offense alot. Did you happen to notice that when Phillip came in and boosted the offense is several games it was because the safties had to play off?

MeanMag · November 29, 2005

No, it wouldn't. First off, we lost Andrew Smith LAST YEAR. We didn't even come close to Zac Taylor, no matter what anyone says. Nebraska called him out of the blue in DECEMBER of last year, which, while late, isn't exactly the eleventh hour. He signed a LOI with them very soon afterwards, and committed on the first day he could. And if any of you truly believe he was considering us more than he was Marshall or Memphis, then you might want to get in on NCMeanGreen's real estate opportunities before they dry up.
And QB play, while not very good, was not nearly the problem that O-Line and D-Line play was, so unless Drew was gonna add a hundred pounds and become a lineman, I do not believe this year would have been a lot different.
All of these were problems that had a year or more to address, but that's the hallmark of our team's problems. They've been here for a decade. Unfortunately, so have the excuses.
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Yea, it would. First off, we had Scott Hall LAST YEAR. There was no gaurantee that Andrew would be starting last year. However, he would be this year.

And QB play could have contributed, with how many close SBC games we were involved in, Smith could make things happen. We wouldn't stall at the endzone, and get as many field goals as we did. We would probably have gotten touch downs and Quinn and jackson would have been a bigger threat. Teams would have to worry about a QB who could throw, run, RBs that could RUN and catch, and WRS that could catch and run.

I don't know how you expect to run a wide open offense with a freshmen QB at the helm.

Monkeypox · November 29, 2005

A consistent qb would have helped this offense alot. Did you happen to notice that when Phillip came in and boosted the offense is several games it was because the safties had to play off?
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I know what happened when Phillips came in. What I DON'T know is why it so rarely was allowed. You'd have to ask the coaching staff, the ultimate limiting factor to what this team accomplishes year-to-year.

Safeties played off because he was at least capable of throwing the deep ball on that rare occasion when the O-line gave someone a chance to take more than a 3-step drop. Our run didn't work, our play-action didn't work, because more than anything the difference this year was in the line play. Face it, we'd been running into 9-man fronts for years now. It's just that we'd always been able to get away with it vs. the Sun Belt.

Running the ball effectively would've helped this offense much more. Having some capable run-stoppers would've helped the defense, or didn't you notice everyone gashing us up the middle with the run all season long?

Still, if all of your wonderful what-ifs would've come true, all we would've done is scraped by some of those Sun Belt teams we lost to and gotten blown out in OOC and the New Orleans - Lafayette Bowl. I know that that's considered a success by many here, so I'll give you that.

GrandGreen · November 29, 2005

No, it wouldn't. First off, we lost Andrew Smith LAST YEAR. We didn't even come close to Zac Taylor, no matter what anyone says. Nebraska called him out of the blue in DECEMBER of last year, which, while late, isn't exactly the eleventh hour. He signed a LOI with them very soon afterwards, and committed on the first day he could. And if any of you truly believe he was considering us more than he was Marshall or Memphis, then you might want to get in on NCMeanGreen's real estate opportunities before they dry up.
And QB play, while not very good, was not nearly the problem that O-Line and D-Line play was, so unless Drew was gonna add a hundred pounds and become a lineman, I do not believe this year would have been a lot different.
All of these were problems that had a year or more to address, but that's the hallmark of our team's problems. They've been here for a decade. Unfortunately, so have the excuses.
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I agree with you on all your points. I also saw Taylor being listed as going to several other schools before he signed with Nebraska. DD's major problem is it is hard to recruit under all these circumstances to adversity U. Would you sign with NT when the coach does not even convey that he wants to be here? DD has consistenly been beaten badly by ever other Texas School in recruiting since 2000. He has absolutely failed to capitalize on his own success or the substantially improving athletic facilities. One saving grace has been that he has at least recruited above or at the level of the other Belt schools, that may not be true this year.

Monkeypox · November 29, 2005

Yea, it would. First off, we had Scott Hall LAST YEAR. There was no gaurantee that Andrew would be starting last year. However, he would be this year.
And QB play could have contributed, with how many close SBC games we were involved in, Smith could make things happen. We wouldn't stall at the endzone, and get as many field goals as we did. We would probably have gotten touch downs and Quinn and jackson would have been a bigger threat. Teams would have to worry about a QB who could throw, run, RBs that could RUN and catch, and WRS that could catch and run.
I don't know how you expect to run a wide open offense with a freshmen QB at the helm.
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I was never expecting to run a wide open offense w/ a freshman QB. We never ran one with Hall, why would we all of the sudden start.

My POINT, which you clearly missed, was that we didn't JUST lose Andrew Smith. I wasn't saying he would play last year. We lost him over a year before this season started, so the staff had an opportunity to address it over the last year. Scott Hall WAS the starter last year, yes, but it's not like his loss was an unknown. We probably figured that those eligibility years would run out at some time.

TIgreen01 · November 30, 2005

I know what happened when Phillips came in. What I DON'T know is why it so rarely was allowed. You'd have to ask the coaching staff, the ultimate limiting factor to what this team accomplishes year-to-year.
Safeties played off because he was at least capable of throwing the deep ball on that rare occasion when the O-line gave someone a chance to take more than a 3-step drop. Our run didn't work, our play-action didn't work, because more than anything the difference this year was in the line play. Face it, we'd been running into 9-man fronts for years now. It's just that we'd always been able to get away with it vs. the Sun Belt.
Running the ball effectively would've helped this offense much more. Having some capable run-stoppers would've helped the defense, or didn't you notice everyone gashing us up the middle with the run all season long?
Still, if all of your wonderful what-ifs would've come true, all we would've done is scraped by some of those Sun Belt teams we lost to and gotten blown out in OOC and the New Orleans - Lafayette Bowl. I know that that's considered a success by many here, so I'll give you that.
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It really is tough to see exactly where the problem was...the oline or the QB play....but I'll just refer back to B.H. (Before Hall) and A.H. (After Hall). Our offense this year STRONGLY resembled the DD offenses B.H....we had a running game, but it wasn't that good....Jaquay Wilburn barely broke 1000 yards a season back when we ran the ball 90% of the time. A.H. our passing effeciency shot through the roof (also happened with A. Smith at the helm), which helped open up the running game and only A.H. did our running game REALLY take off.

....so, I'm going to go with QB play as the biggest area of concern on this year's team....and having watched Zac Taylor---let's just say he would have helped. I am also not totally convinced that the QBs we have now should be overlooked for next season....didn't we go 2-9 in Hall's freshman season where he split time with R. Bridges? These freshman we have showed signs....who knows whether or not they'll close the gap next season or if it'll take longer.

ntsumgspe · November 30, 2005

These freshman we have showed signs....who knows whether or not they'll close the gap next season or if it'll take longer.
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This program can't afford for it to take longer.

Monkeypox · November 30, 2005

It really is tough to see exactly where the problem was...the oline or the QB play....but I'll just refer back to B.H. (Before Hall) and A.H. (After Hall). Our offense this year STRONGLY resembled the DD offenses B.H....we had a running game, but it wasn't that good....Jaquay Wilburn barely broke 1000 yards a season back when we ran the ball 90% of the time. A.H. our passing effeciency shot through the roof (also happened with A. Smith at the helm), which helped open up the running game and only A.H. did our running game REALLY take off.
....so, I'm going to go with QB play as the biggest area of concern on this year's team....and having watched Zac Taylor---let's just say he would have helped. I am also not totally convinced that the QBs we have now should be overlooked for next season....didn't we go 2-9 in Hall's freshman season where he split time with R. Bridges? These freshman we have showed signs....who knows whether or not they'll close the gap next season or if it'll take longer.
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Our offense actually changed when Flanigan took over in 2002. We had an option based attack back then. This year in no way looked like the offenses before Hall, except for inefficiency. Hall was an efficient QB, yes, but the only real difference was we were able to run the ball against the Belt, and we were able to stop them on defense. This was particularly helpful when we had a redshirt freshman starting for us in 2002, and he didn't have to have anywhere NEAR the passing attempts that we've had this season, because we ran ran ran the ball and had a top 20 defense.

So I disagree in QB being the biggest point of need. We don't run the West Coast offense. We don't have an O-line that can protect the pass and it has pretty much stunk at running the ball. And our D was a sieve all year. These are the differences. I'll agree that we didn't have the QB play, but it wasn't the be-all end-all that some would like to make it out to be.

And regardless, we don't HAVE Zac Taylor. I'm sure if we would've recruited Vince Young a few years ago, this year would've been totally different as well. Maybe we should give Dickey another extension because he has to face tough teams like FIU and Troy without Vince Young.

TIgreen01 · November 30, 2005

Our offense actually changed when Flanigan took over in 2002. We had an option based attack back then. This year in no way looked like the offenses before Hall, except for inefficiency. Hall was an efficient QB, yes, but the only real difference was we were able to run the ball against the Belt, and we were able to stop them on defense. This was particularly helpful when we had a redshirt freshman starting for us in 2002, and he didn't have to have anywhere NEAR the passing attempts that we've had this season, because we ran ran ran the ball and had a top 20 defense.
So I disagree in QB being the biggest point of need. We don't run the West Coast offense. We don't have an O-line that can protect the pass and it has pretty much stunk at running the ball. And our D was a sieve all year. These are the differences. I'll agree that we didn't have the QB play, but it wasn't the be-all end-all that some would like to make it out to be.
And regardless, we don't HAVE Zac Taylor. I'm sure if we would've recruited Vince Young a few years ago, this year would've been totally different as well. Maybe we should give Dickey another extension because he has to face tough teams like FIU and Troy without Vince Young.
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Our defense stunk last year, too....just not AS bad as this year. Though I'll agree that our 'D' was the biggest problem with this year's team. A better 'D' would have made allowances for the new QBs as it did for A. Smith in 2002. Maybe I should have directed my last post as "the biggest problem with our offense"....b/c I still say that was the drop off in QB efficiency. The Oline was overwhelmed all year b/c the opposing 'D' didn't have to respect the pass. A. Smith would have helped that.

Monkeypox · November 30, 2005

The Oline was overwhelmed all year b/c the opposing 'D' didn't have to respect the pass. A. Smith would have helped that.
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We face the same type of fronts every year. The only time we've not had success is OOC, where it becomes obvious we don't have the talent of other mid-majors.

We averaged between 2200-2400 rushing yards from 2002-2004. We had 1573 this year.

That was the difference. We couldn't/didn't run successfully against those fronts. The 3-and-outs and poor defense had us playing with our backs to the wall all season. Sure, we didn't have a QB capable of playing catch-up, but we don't have an offense for it, either.

PlummMeanGreen · November 30, 2005

Much of this in deference to Arkstfan's above post:

I don't think any unemployed D1-A level coach (just as Hayden Fry was a newly unemployed coach when we hired him in December of 1972); anyway, I don't think any coach looking for a job is going to really give a rat's behind with what happened at UNT for there to be a job opening in the first place. Most high profile type hires that a UNT could hire would come on board at UNT with a definite plan (thus another reason that made them a high profile coach in the first place) to take this progarm to new and higher destination points or heights not seen in Denton for a very long time. That is just the mindset of such a hire. Remember how Fry went out in his first few weeks in Denton raised (what some of you have told me) was the equivalence of about $1,000,000.oo back in that day?

The age of the SBC (5 years old) and membership make-up of the SBC (with several teams just out of 1-AA classification) makes a UNT scenario in the SBC a most unique situation concerning a future change.

I'd all but guarantee if many on this board merely got word that there was a known, successful in the past NCAA D1-A coach who is unemployed and who now became interested in the UNT job (just like Fry became interested with UNT in December of 1972) that sudden rush of wind some would hear would be many switching over to the other side who would also begin to see completely new possibilities for the football program at UNT. One high profile hire at UNT would create short memories of the last 8 years.

If a UNT with a 13 W's/5 L's/3 Ties record against a UTEP football program who recently stepped up to the plate and outside their usual box of leaving old ways behind by hiring Price which has produced first time ever Top 25 football in El Paso, why couldn't UNT repeat history once again (but this time with a much larger NT constituency) and just as we hired the "unemployed" Hayden Fry back in the day, catch lightnin' in a bottle once again with a similar hire?

HOW TO SPIN TO A NEW COACH 4 BOWL GAMES AS SBC REP & SUDDENLY A COACH'S OPENING IN DENTON? How about when that new prospective high profile coach starts looking even deeper into this UNT job and found that 4 bowl games did not get Darrell Dickey one interview at any NCAA D1-A school. This is the stumbling-block that has blind-sided most of our NT leaders (apparently) but they seem to not see the need for urgency with an 8 year coach's career record that is still under .500. Oh well, as they say....patience is a virtue.

Maybe Some Interesting Notes To Some of You of DD's 8 Years @ UNT:

1998....3 & 8

1999....2 & 9

2000....3 & 8 (As would be expected at most NCAA D1 outposts, questions begin to arise about DD's abilities to be a head football coach who can take UNT to the next level.

2001....5 & 6 and a bowl appearance with much negative publicity that would accompany a school going to a bowl game with a losing record; yet more perspective on the SBC's 1'st year of playing football as a league was how UNT lost to 2 most interesting schools with most interesting backgrounds; First of all, a school that had (at the time) only been in the football business for 5 years, ie, U of South Florida came to "Our House" in Denton with the final score USF 28 NT 10 <>*<>*<>In that same bowl year we also lost to an NCAA D1-AA school, namely Troy State and if the Trojans had been voted into the SBC for the 2001 season (as they previously had hoped for as I recall) it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion that it would have probably been Troy U in the first NO's Bowl instead of UNT. If that had been the case and in a normal NCAA D1-A conference (which the SBC cannot say that it is at this time), a 5 & 6 record by DD could have very easily been his 4'th unrewared losing season in a row. DD thanks his lucky stars he is a head coach in a league of mostly NCAA D1-a rejects most all ranked in or near the Bottom 10 (sorry, but how could I say it any nicer than that)?

2002....Yet another loss to a (now) 6 year old NCAA football program and that being U of South Florida 24 UNT 17. But the Mean Green goes back to the NO's bowl against a Cincinatti Bearcat team whose QB throws 5 interceptions. The game was still in doubt (in spite of the 5 Bearcat interceptions) and was close till the end. NOTE: The Bearcats first run out onto the SuperDome football field was before about 500 Cincy' fans--anyone else think that inspired the 'Cats to play real hard for their dear alma mater who traveled so few of its fans? Well, the game still ended with a 24-19 score in NT's favor.

2003....Are some of the upstart SBC teams finally catching up? Check just a few of the scores...

NT 24 Idaho.....14

NT 37 USU........27

NT 33 MTSU......28

NT 28 ULM........26

NT 13 NMSU......10

2004....5 year old 1-AA program FAU comes to Fouts and beats NT, 20 to 10; later in a bowl game what concerns many NT fans is how a 4'th place CUSA team shows a large talent differential between the SBC football champion and a 4'th place CUSA team by wining the NO's Bowl, USM 31 NT 10. Many on this board start posting their deep concerns with our overall recruiting and how it was (realistically with the green tinted glasses off) stacking up against schools in a conference UNT had just a year earlier showed a great interest in joining. Anyone think CUSA is interested in the UNT they see today?

2005.... What seemed to show many where our last few recruiting classes ranked were 2 tell-tell sign or red flag losses to Tulsa U at Fouts (our worst loss at home since UNT started playing football in 1913; and then another big loss to Louisiana Tech who we have to annually fight for Texas HS recruits; More outside of football issues arise and a Mean Green Nation seems divided on whether there should be a future at NT for Dickey in light of the "shooting fish in a barrell" SBC/Bottom 10 league we are in our 5'th year as a member.

Edited November 30, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

CMJ · November 30, 2005

First of all, a school that had (at the time) only been in the football business for 5 years, ie, U of South Florida came to "Our House" in Denton with the final score USF 28 NT 10

Just pointing out, that game was in Tampa, not in Denton. The following year we lost in Denton.

MeanMag · November 30, 2005

I'm sure if we would've recruited Vince Young a few years ago, this year would've been totally different as well. Maybe we should give Dickey another extension because he has to face tough teams like FIU and Troy without Vince Young.
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I must be lost...

bison · November 30, 2005

If we see the same offensive scheme we saw the last couple of three games of the season
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This is the same offensive scheme that has been used for 8 years. It didn't work then and it has not really worked in any of the 8 years. We were just playing poor teams. Why wait another year for more or the same.

ipEAGLE · November 30, 2005

Not really on topic... but it seems like everyone is bashing our offense and Ramon, but another problem is our defense. Our defense was pathetic this yr. We have the softest defense in Division 1 football.

Monkeypox · November 30, 2005

I must be lost...
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Haven't you heard? We need to give Dickey credit for QBs he didn't sign. If they were here, we would've won the Sun Belt again and gotten blown out in the New Orleans via Lafayette Bowl. It would've been GLORIOUS! On the strength of players Dickey didn't sign, I don't understand how he's not widely regarded as the best coach in the NCAA.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Monkeypox

ipEAGLE · November 30, 2005

Speaking of the player we don't sign...

Last year after watching the Southern Miss game I thought to myself... our players look like high school athletes compared to those guys on the other team. We had a lot better athletes in 2002 and 2003 compared to what we have now. I thought success breeds success?

Edited November 30, 2005 by ipEAGLE

Michael Scott · November 30, 2005

Speaking of the player we don't sign...
Last year after watching the Southern Miss game I thought to myself... our players look like high school athletes compared to those guys on the other team. We had a lot better athletes in 2002 and 2003 compared to what we have now. I thought success breeds success?
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My dad makes the same comments everytime he visits - he's an ex college player in his 60's and says he had bigger linemen on his high school team for the most part.

Smaller linemen can do the job if they are conditioned and strong - not a knock on them - but if we have to recruit small for the most part can't the coaches get them bulked up and ready to go for 4 quarters?

Maybe we can go sign Alex Gibbs to coach the line...

ipEAGLE · November 30, 2005

I agree with everything you metioned... but from what I understand some of the biggest lineman you could find in the 60's were only around 245 pounds in high school. Sure some might have been bigger, but from what my dad tells me he was one of the biggest lineman in the area at 245 pounds in 1969.

Edited November 30, 2005 by ipEAGLE

GoMeanGreen1999 · November 30, 2005

hmmm
Hatfield resigning at Rice??
His record is not much worse than DD, plus he has Texas recruiting ties and would be easier to recruit at UNT since Academic Standards are not tough at all, especially compared to Rice.
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If you think that DD's offense tends to be boring at times with too much running - you don't don't want Hatfield in here as coach. After 5 watching him during all of those season at Arkansas, I couldn't handle watching that again.

Hatfield is a good guy, that runs a good and clean program, but man is his offense boring to watch over and over again.

Michael Scott · November 30, 2005

I agree with everything you metioned... but from what I understand some of the biggest lineman you could find in the 60's were only around 245 pounds in high school. Sure some might have been bigger, but from what my dad tells me he was one of the biggest lineman in the area at 245 pounds in 1969.
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I know its inconsequential, but he was on the east coast and they had a few freak linemen (he was an end and much smaller then the tackles) he always brings up because he cannot believe how today's game has changed in size so much and how he remembers being awed by people in the 260-280 range. Likes to point how "obese" that was then as well.

Random musings from the old man - gotta love 'em.

He's also the worlds most pessimistic fan, so take him for what he is worth.

DeepGreen · November 30, 2005

Speaking of the player we don't sign...
Last year after watching the Southern Miss game I thought to myself... our players look like high school athletes compared to those guys on the other team. We had a lot better athletes in 2002 and 2003 compared to what we have now. I thought success breeds success?
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I had the same thoughts watching that game last year. Boys amongst men.