SBC vs Big West

shaft · November 16, 2005

Maybe some of our history buffs or just really old fans can help me with this one.

Is the Sun Belt a better conference than the Big West was?

Lets just talk about the strength of the conference then compared to what those programs are up to know and how the Belt measures up.

emmitt01 · November 16, 2005

Uhh, the big west was better but only because Boise is better. The rest of the big west was:

North Texas

Idaho

Nevada

Utah State

New Mexico State

Arkansas State (I believe)

So, really, I'd give the nod to the Big West but only because Boise St has grown in the WAC.

Arkstfan · November 16, 2005

Uhh, the big west was better but only because Boise is better. The rest of the big west was:
North Texas
Idaho
Nevada
Utah State
New Mexico State
Arkansas State (I believe)
So, really, I'd give the nod to the Big West but only because Boise St has grown in the WAC.
←

Boise was barely better in the Big West than UNT the last couple years. The difference was that Boise played a softer non-conference schedule and played bowl games in that ice box of a stadium they have.

The difference though is Boise parlayed that success into building increasingly stronger teams (until this year).

Monkeypox · November 16, 2005

The difference though is Boise parlayed that success into building increasingly stronger teams (until this year).
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What?! No way... that's unpossible.

Arkstfan · November 16, 2005

To follow up.

1999 Boise won its first Big West title. Before that they were fairly crummy.

They were rated 42 in Massey playing the 102nd toughest schedule. They lost to UCLA (4-7), Hawaii and UNT. Wins of note. UNLV (3-8), Utah (9-3) 2 I-AA, and Louisville at Boise in the Humanitarian Bowl.

2000. Beat 2 I-AA's, beat a MAC, beat a MWC, lost close games at a mediocre Arkansas and mediocre Washington State (4-7) who had lost to Idaho. Schedule rated 88.

The 2002 UNT team was rated 54 and played a schedule rated 70th, tougher than either of the "darling" Boise teams, the difference was UNT lost five games vs UNT losing 5 over those two years... because Boise played weaker teams.

meanrob · November 16, 2005

The Big West was a better conference. The Idaho team that won the champ beat a pretty good USM team. Going into Nevada, Idaho, Utah State or Boise State was much tougher than going into SBC teams' home stadiums.

Was it a lot better? No, but it was better. Check out some of the OOC victories that some of the Big West teams had and then compare that to SBC OOC victories.

Would I rather be in the SBC? No doubt about it. Going to an away game in the Big West was a nightmare.

It wasn't just Boise, Ark St fan. Across the board, the Big West from 96-00 was better than the SBC from 01-05.

Then again, not sure it matters a hill of beans anyway.

MeanGreen61 · November 16, 2005

The Big West was a better conference. The Idaho team that won the champ beat a pretty good USM team. Going into Nevada, Idaho, Utah State or Boise State was much tougher than going into SBC teams' home stadiums.
Was it a lot better? No, but it was better. Check out some of the OOC victories that some of the Big West teams had and then compare that to SBC OOC victories.
Would I rather be in the SBC? No doubt about it. Going to an away game in the Big West was a nightmare.
It wasn't just Boise, Ark St fan. Across the board, the Big West from 96-00 was better than the SBC from 01-05.
Then again, not sure it matters a hill of beans anyway.
←

Howell had the Big West rated ahead of the MAC in '98 & '99.

Big West Conference teams season W/L totals (per Howell)

96 - 29W 39L

97 - 26W 41L

98- 30W 37L

99- 36W 43L

00- 27W 40L

96 Big West had 3 bowl eligible teams. Nevada won Las Vegas Bowl over Ball State

98 Big West had 3 bowl eligible teams. Idaho beat S. Miss in H. Bowl

99 Big West had 3 bowl eligible teams. Boise beat Louisville in the H. Bowl

1 bowl eligible team in '97 (USU lost to Cincy in the H Bowl)

1 bowl eligible team in 2000 (Boise beat UTEP in the H Bowl)

As Rob says, the Big West was better across the board than the Sun Belt.

meanrob · November 16, 2005

Just from looking back at some of the OOC games in the Big West, here are some teams the BW beat from 96-01.

Arizona State

Texas Tech (2X)

Utah (3X)

UNLV (3X)

Washington State (2X)

Southern Miss

Louisville

New Mexico (3X)

plus a couple of wins over UTEP and MAC schools.

I might even be missing a few more wins and there were some real close calls against other BCS teams that BW teams lost by fewer than 7 points.

Off the top of my head the victories of Sun Belt teams are-

Vandy (3X?)

Missouri (thanks IP eagle)

Cincy

Baylor

and a couple of wins over MAC teams.

I could be wrong but that is all I could think of.

I also could be wrong but I can only remember one loss to a I-AA team by Big West teams. I think there have been at least 5 by Sun Belt teams.

Actually I was wrong on the above about I-AA losses. The Big West lost at least 5 games to I-AA opponents. Boise lost two in 96 and Idaho lost a few along the way too.

Plus Arkansas State lost to Richmond while members of the Big West....hehe.

Still overall, the Big West was better.

Edited November 16, 2005 by meanrob

ipEAGLE · November 16, 2005

Troy beat Missouri.

Edited November 16, 2005 by ipEAGLE

FirefightnRick · November 16, 2005

1-A OCC wins by the Big West from 1996 thru 2000, which was the time table that NT was a member. Notable losses are in parenthesis.

Boise St---Utah '98, New Mexico '99, Utah '99, Louisville '99, New Mexico '00, C. Michigan '00, UTEP '00. (Lost to an 8-5 Wisconsin team by 4 in '97, Lost to a 9-2 La Tech team by 4, Lost to a 6-6 Arkansas team by 7 in '98).

Idaho---San Jose St '98, Ark St '98, Southern Miss '98, Wash St '99, Wash St '00, (Lost to a 10-2 Wyoming team by 2 in '96, Lost to a 10-3 Air Force team by 4 in '97, Lost to a 5-6 Auburn team by 7 in '99, Lost to a 7-5 West Virginia team by 12 in '00).

Arkansas St---ULL '99, (Lost to an 8-4 TCU team by 4 in '99, Lost to an 8-4 North Carlolina St team by 7 in '00).

Utah State---Utah(8-4) '96, Utah(6-5) '97. (Lost to an 8-3 Southern Miss team by 7 in '96, Lost to an 11-2 Colorado St. team by 11 in '97, Lost to a 9-4 New Mexico team by 3 in '97, Lost to a 6-5 BYU team by 7 in '97, Lost to an 8-3 Cincinnati team by 14 in the Human Bowl in '97, Lost to a 7-4 Utah team by 7 in '98, Lost to an 8-4 BYU team by 3 in '99)

New Mexico State--- Ark St '97, New Mexico '98, UTEP '98, New Mexico '99, Arizona State '99, Army '00, Tulsa '00. (Lost to an 8-4 UTEP team by 10 in '00).

Nevada--- Kent '95, UNLV '96, Ark St '96, Ball State '96, UNLV '97, Fresno St '98, UNLV '98, UNLV '99. (Lost to a 6-5 Oregon team by 14 in '96, Lost to a 7-6 Oregon team by 4 in '97, Lost to a 7-6 Wyoming team by 4 in '97, Lost to an 8-4 Colorado St team by 12 in '98, Lost to an 8-4 Colorado St team by 5 in '99).

North Texas---Northern Illinois '96, Texas Tech '97, Texas Tech '99, ULL '00. (Lost to a 7-6 Texas Tech team by 6 in '00).

I'd have to say the Big West was a better conference overall during this 5 year span than the 5 years of existence of the Belt conference. But you have to consider the Big West had existed at least since the '88 season. 5 seasons isn't much time to compare the two conferences. In my oppinion, during the '96 thru '00 season's, Nevada, Idaho, Utah St and Boise St gave you the impression that they could play with anyone, any given day back then.

Interestingly, of North Texas' 8 overall 1-A, Out Of Conference wins since returning back to 1-A in '95, Simon won 3 of them during the three 1-A seasons he was here, from '95 thru '97.

Rick

Edited November 16, 2005 by FirefightnRick

meanrob · November 16, 2005

WHAT?!? We've only won 8 I-A OOC games since returning to I-A?

Good grief....see if I can name them.

Oregon State

Texas Tech (2X)

Northern Illinois

ULL (worst frickin game ever)

Baylor

Cincy?

I'm at a loss for the last one if the Cincy game was included.

NT80 · November 16, 2005

Interestingly, of North Texas' 8 overall 1-A, Out Of Conference wins since returning back to 1-A in '95, Simon won 3 of them during the three 1-A seasons he was here, from '95 thru '97.
←

That is sad.

FirefightnRick · November 16, 2005

WHAT?!? We've only won 8 I-A OOC games since returning to I-A?
Good grief....see if I can name them.
Oregon State
Texas Tech (2X)
Northern Illinois
ULL (worst frickin game ever)
Baylor
Cincy?
I'm at a loss for the last one if the Cincy game was included.
←

Troy State was not a conference member yet in 2003 when we beat them 21-0 in Denton. They were still playing an independant schedule at the time.

Rick

meanrob · November 16, 2005

So two of our OOC wins are basically over Sun Belt teams.

That's even sadder.

The other ones with "Rob" comments-

Northern Illinois- They went 1-10 that year and lost to Western Illinois in the process. Their only win.....over Ark State. We won that game by three and got extremely lucky when NIU fumbled near our goal line and we ran the ball all the way back for a score.

Texas Tech (2X)- not much to say, two of the greatest victories I've ever witnessed but the 30-27 game was about as good as it gets. Probably one of the best games of any kind that I've seen. 4th and 14?? Unbelievable.

Baylor- Great game at Fouts but to be honest I expected us to blow them out. They were horrible and it showed.

Oregon State- What a scrappy game by basically a I-AA team that we fielded. We were down in the fourth but fought back and won in the last seconds.

Cincy- Great game, would've been nice if somebody from Cincy would have been there.

H-towngreen · November 16, 2005

Arkst pointed out how Boise used there success against cupcakes and built from that. Should we here at NT do the same for a few years.

Schedule only 1 $$$$ game.

Schedule 1 or 2 games against teams such as Temple/Buffalo- the low of the low

Schedule 1 or 2 toss up games against teams on our level.

FirefightnRick · November 16, 2005

Texas Tech (2X)- not much to say, two of the greatest victories I've ever witnessed but the 30-27 game was about as good as it gets. Probably one of the best games of any kind that I've seen. 4th and 14?? Unbelievable.
←

If you loved those two wins over them you would have gone Berzerk over our 1-AA win over them in '88. The game in which we brought their Tortilla's back to Denton. Keith Chapman hit three long range field goals, 2 over 40 and one over 50. I think we went in at half down 21-7? Then came out for the second half and took it to them. Just an amazing game.

Rick

Edited November 16, 2005 by FirefightnRick

meanrob · November 16, 2005

I've seen the tape of that game. That crazy interception returned for a score totally changed the momentum.

But it still wasn't as good as the 30-27 game.

Arkstfan · November 16, 2005

The Big West had some nice wins but the typical Big West non-conference win was over teams from the MAC, WAC and MWC (basically like winning a WAC, MAC or CUSA game for us) and over the dregs of the Pac-10 and Big 12.

The Sun Belt schools have scheduled stupid in the past. If you look at Boise or Marshall the schools to make a big splash moving to I-A you see they rarely went on the road to play a top 25 or even top 35 school.

From the schedules that are emerging, you apparently will see less of that in the future in the Belt.

Losing by 7 to a BCS school rated #50 has a very different impact on team confidence and fan interest than losing by 50 to a top 10.

VideoEagle · November 16, 2005

Losing by 7 to a BCS school rated #50 has a very different impact on team confidence and fan interest than losing by 50 to a top 10.
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Lately we've become experts at this problem!

Earlier in the thread it was pointed out the old Big West was better than the Mac, with the implication the Mac was then good. The Mac has good teams now, but in the early 90s over half of their conference was in violation of the rules for remaining 1A. The conference had to appeal to the NCAA on their behalf.

It took the Mac about 10 years to turn the conference around, but they did it. They still have some teams that are significantly worse than Sunbelt teams, but their top teams are better.

Still, they will not place as many teams in bowls this year as they did last year.

Edited November 16, 2005 by VideoEagle

TheColonyEagle · November 16, 2005

Arkst pointed out how Boise used there success against cupcakes and built from that. Should we here at NT do the same for a few years.
Schedule only 1 $$$$ game.
Schedule 1 or 2 games against teams such as Temple/Buffalo- the low of the low
Schedule 1 or 2 toss up games against teams on our level.
←

That's why the 2006 season is crucial to this program. We have basically your scenario next year. (if memory serves)

1 $$$$$ game: At Texas

1 (should be) tossup on the road: At Tulsa

2 (should be) tossups at home: SMU and La Tech

The SMU game should break the Baylor game's attendance record.

Next years OOC schedule is what we've been begging for. One body bag game and 3 - mid major regional teams. What an opportunity we have next season. If conference talk gets going again, next season could be a springboard for us. Combine the start of construction to the baseball stadium with wins against 2 CUSA teams and 1 WAC team (a WAC team that is our main competitor for the spot we want) and we could be in for something special in '06.

(again, this is assuming I've got the shedule down correctly. I'm not 100%)

Stan R · November 16, 2005

My favorite Dwight comment now... "I'm sorry, were you guys making out in here?"

FirefightnRick · November 16, 2005

The Big West had some nice wins but the typical Big West non-conference win was over teams from the MAC, WAC and MWC (basically like winning a WAC, MAC or CUSA game for us) and over the dregs of the Pac-10 and Big 12.
The Sun Belt schools have scheduled stupid in the past. If you look at Boise or Marshall the schools to make a big splash moving to I-A you see they rarely went on the road to play a top 25 or even top 35 school.
From the schedules that are emerging, you apparently will see less of that in the future in the Belt.
Losing by 7 to a BCS school rated #50 has a very different impact on team confidence and fan interest than losing by 50 to a top 10.
←

Absolutely dead on correct.

Rick

FirefightnRick · November 16, 2005

That's why the 2006 season is crucial to this program. We have basically your scenario next year. (if memory serves)
1 $$$$$ game: At Texas
1 (should be) tossup on the road: At Tulsa
2 (should be) tossups at home: SMU and La Tech
The SMU game should break the Baylor game's attendance record.
Next years OOC schedule is what we've been begging for. One body bag game and 3 - mid major regional teams. What an opportunity we have next season. If conference talk gets going again, next season could be a springboard for us. Combine the start of construction to the baseball stadium with wins against 2 CUSA teams and 1 WAC team (a WAC team that is our main competitor for the spot we want) and we could be in for something special in '06.
(again, this is assuming I've got the shedule down correctly. I'm not 100%)
←

We had our dream schedule this year and blew it. My hope for next sesason is that we have 17 or 18 returning starters.

Rick

Michael Scott · November 16, 2005

The Big West had some nice wins but the typical Big West non-conference win was over teams from the MAC, WAC and MWC (basically like winning a WAC, MAC or CUSA game for us) and over the dregs of the Pac-10 and Big 12.
The Sun Belt schools have scheduled stupid in the past. If you look at Boise or Marshall the schools to make a big splash moving to I-A you see they rarely went on the road to play a top 25 or even top 35 school.
From the schedules that are emerging, you apparently will see less of that in the future in the Belt.
Losing by 7 to a BCS school rated #50 has a very different impact on team confidence and fan interest than losing by 50 to a top 10.
←

If and when the Sun Belt can beat MAC, WAC, and MWC or the dregs of the Pac 10 and Big 12 on a semi-consistent basis most of the grumbling will go away.

The conference probably needs to shore up the whole beating I-AA schools as well.

The schedules have improved lately for most teams with regards to body bag games but the results have yet to change. I am reserving evaluation until next year - hopefully it will be a big step towards respectability.

VideoEagle · November 16, 2005

With regards to both the MAC and the WAC, right now their top teams are significantly better than the top of the Sunbelt. But, based on every rating out there, their bottom teams are worse than ours.