SBC vs Big West

Coffee and TV · November 16, 2005

We had our dream schedule this year and blew it. My hope for next sesason is that we have 17 or 18 returning starters.
Rick
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And you my friend, are absolutely dead on correct with that statement.

Eagle1855 · November 16, 2005

We had our dream schedule this year and blew it. My hope for next sesason is that we have 17 or 18 returning starters.
Rick
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Well I agree with you here, but in all fairness we have a pretty good schedule next year as well. We should get the Middle-of-Tennessee-Slack-Jaws at home, then we also play Tulsa, SMU and La Tech in our OOC. Plus we get to go hang out in Austin for our opener, and I will take that over Baton Rouge, Hell any day.

Arkstfan · November 16, 2005

The MAC pre-Marshall was pretty lousy, the conference didn't have much direction and fairly decent hoops was about all it seemed to have going for it.

But it had two really big things going for it.

1. Tight geography that allowed them to spend money in other directions instead of on travel.

2. An eight game schedule (some of the seasons a nine game schedule.

From 1981 to 1991 the Big West went 7-4 against the MAC in the California Bowl. Then 1992 to 1996 the Big West was 3-2 against the MAC in the Las Vegas Bowl.

But typically the MAC school came in with the better record because they played more conference games. The worst in conference record any of those 16 years playing against the Big West was 6-2. They had a bunch of 8-0 and 7-2 years. The Big West most years played one or two fewer conference games, many of them two fewer.

So the MAC despite being crummy most of that time was posting good records, so they were perceived better. The Big West in the same time period was playing tougher games, especially Pacific, San Jose State, Utah State, and NMSU and they were a lot of folks cannon fodder so the Big West was seen as lower.

The addition of Marshall changed the game in the MAC. They entered dominant. As time went on the gap narrowed and they were passed. Marshall didn't so much stumble, even though they went down some, as the league passed them.

In 2003 Northern Illinois beat three BCS schools and didn't win their division in the MAC. This is the same program that went 3-30 from 1996 to 1998. From 1999 to 2001 they were 17-16. From 2002 to 2004 they were 27-9. All of those seasons under Joe Novak. It basically took Northern Illinois 6 years of being awful to mediocre to be an overnight success in the 7th year and no one noticed until the 8th year.

I've mentioned this before but look around the Sun Belt.

ULM. Weatherbie is in season 3. Ten wins so far (2 games to play) vs. 6 the three years before he arrived.

ULL. Bustle season 4. He has 16 wins (one left to play) vs. 8 the four years before he arrived.

ASU. Roberts season 4. He has 19 wins (two left to play) vs. 11 the four years before he arrived.

FAU. 5th year of football. Beat the defending champion. Lost by 7 to the first place team this year. Beat ULL one of the three teams still with a shot to win the league. Lost by 3 in OT to ASU, one of the three teams left in the race.

FIU. 4th year of football. Beat the first place team in the Sun Belt this year. Beaten by 21 by ULL and 42 by ASU.

Right there you have five teams that you look at and have to believe there is reasonable evidence that they have positive momentum.

MTSU. A real split personality squad. Sometimes looks very good, sometimes looks pretty inept. Unless they change coaches you have to think they will be the sort of school that with a few breaks wins it all and with a few bad breaks is fighting to stay out of the basement. Probably the hottest seat in the Sun Belt because they had some good talent returning and they started out bad instead of starting good like you would expect from an experienced squad.

Troy. Had a lot of transition this year. Only suprise to me was that they weren't more competitive against ULM. Rest of the schedule fell together fairly predictably.

UNT. Just have to wonder what would have happened if UNT had signed a December juco QB for this season and created enough of a pass threat that defenses wouldn't dare UNT to pass.

Of those three. I think it is reasonable to think Troy's season is part of the natural cycle. MTSU may have a problem. UNT all I can say is that with four conference titles you expect a team to be more competitive and have no choice but to wait until next year to see if it is a trend. But again I think you have six programs you can feel fairly confident are on the right track. In the case of UNT if you aren't, then at least you getting the infrastructure in place.

SilverEagle · November 16, 2005

UNT. Just have to wonder what would have happened if UNT had signed a December juco QB for this season and created enough of a pass threat that defenses wouldn't dare UNT to pass.
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I assume that you're talking about a Juco QB that would have come in and practiced in the spring. Otherwise, the learning curve for a Juco QB and a freshmen QB, or RS Freshman QB would be about the same.

It has taken Ransom (Juco DE) several games to make any sort of impact out there. I have to think that DE is easier to learn than QB.

untbowler · November 16, 2005

I assume that you're talking about a Juco QB that would have come in and practiced in the spring. Otherwise, the learning curve for a Juco QB and a freshmen QB, or RS Freshman QB would be about the same.
It has taken Ransom (Juco DE) several games to make any sort of impact out there. I have to think that DE is easier to learn than QB.
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I think a JUCO QB would have picked it up quickly due to game experience of being a field general. I think Meager/Phillips are hampered by the speed of College vs H.S. where a JUCO would be much more prepared, plus we do not run a very complicated offense for the most part.

Eagle1855 · November 16, 2005

plus we do not run a very complicated offense for the most part.
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Well I cant figure it out..

SilverEagle · November 16, 2005

I think a JUCO QB would have picked it up quickly due to game experience of being a field general. I think Meager/Phillips are hampered by the speed of College vs H.S. where a JUCO would be much more prepared, plus we do not run a very complicated offense for the most part.
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If a player has played QB in Texas, especially in 4-A or 5-A, AND he has taken his team deep into the play-offs, then he's used to the game moving at a pretty fast pace.

I believe that Jamario Thomas moved from a 3-A school to D-1 and managed to adjust to the speed of the game just fine. Chris Miller (a true freshman) made the transition just fine. Last year J. Chapman made the change just fine........

Arkstfan · November 16, 2005

December juco = one that graduates in December and can enroll in the spring and go through spring drills before his first season.

FirefightnRick · November 17, 2005

I know we were supposedly trying to sign one last year, but has DD ever signed a Juco QB at North Texas? I don't believe so, and I think it's clear as to why. It's a good bet that we will never see us sign a Juco QB under this current staff.

Rick

greenb.o.g. · December 12, 2019

Over a decade later and I'm bringing this topic back to life ... 😁

The original question concerned the competitiveness of the Big West Conference during UNT's tenure (1996-2000) against the competitiveness of the first five years UNT was in the Sun Belt Conference (2001-2005).

During the years in question, I think it's safe to say the Big West and Sun Belt were perceived by sports writers and the general population as the worst Division I conferences in America. I think that is a fair assessment given the overall results of out of conference competition. But I think the Big West had better teams and competed against out of conference competition tougher than their later Sun Belt peers.

From a personal standpoint I will always have a place in my heart for the Big West Conference. My first year as a student at UNT was Fall of 1998, which also coincided with the first year of one Darrell Dickey.

The 1998 football season was also crazy. The out of conference schedule was ridiculous as it featured games against Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Arizona State, Texas A&M, Kansas, and Houston. UNT was 0-6 against those teams. But going into the last game of the season against New Mexico State, UNT actually had a chance of making the Humanitarian Bowl as a 3-8 team. They had to beat New Mexico State and Idaho needed to lose their final game against Boise State. North Texas did beat NMSU but Idaho beat Boise State, thus eliminating North Texas from the bowl berth. Idaho, however, only defeated Boise State 36-35 in overtime. That means the margin of defeat for North Texas was only 2 points! (I'm sure the officials in the Big West, the NCAA, and at ESPN were all cheering for Idaho to win). North Texas going to a bowl as a 3-8 team would've made the 5-6 New Orleans Bowl team of 2001 look not so bad.

FirefightnRick · December 12, 2019

6 minutes ago, greenb.o.g. said:

Over a decade later and I'm bringing this topic back to life ... 😁

The original question concerned the competitiveness of the Big West Conference during UNT's tenure (1996-2000) against the competitiveness of the first five years UNT was in the Sun Belt Conference (2001-2005).

During the years in question, I think it's safe to say the Big West and Sun Belt were perceived by sports writers and the general population as the worst Division I conferences in America. I think that is a fair assessment given the overall results of out of conference competition. But I think the Big West had better teams and competed against out of conference competition tougher than their later Sun Belt peers.

From a personal standpoint I will always have a place in my heart for the Big West Conference. My first year as a student at UNT was Fall of 1998, which also coincided with the first year of one Darrell Dickey.

The 1998 football season was also crazy. The out of conference schedule was ridiculous as it featured games against Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Arizona State, Texas A&M, Kansas, and Houston. UNT was 0-6 against those teams. But going into the last game of the season against New Mexico State, UNT actually had a chance of making the Humanitarian Bowl as a 3-8 team. They had to beat New Mexico State and Idaho needed to lose their final game against Boise State. North Texas did beat NMSU but Idaho beat Boise State, thus eliminating North Texas from the bowl berth. Idaho, however, only defeated Boise State 36-35 in overtime. That means the margin of defeat for North Texas was only 2 points! (I'm sure the officials in the Big West, the NCAA, and at ESPN were all cheering for Idaho to win). North Texas going to a bowl as a 3-8 team would've made the 5-6 New Orleans Bowl team of 2001 look not so bad.

I think a better question is who did each conference benefit the most?

The Big West greatly benefitted Boise. They parlayed that 1998 6-5 season into a 1999 10-3 season that included a win over Utah of the Mountain West, started their own bowl game which got them and their brand on TV,...then beat Louisville in the bowl game, which if I remember was in horrible conditions. The next year they did the same thing, went 10-2, got on tv and beat UTEP in their new bowl game,...and they continued from there hiring well and winning and taking advantage of their opportunities which eventually led them to the WAC and the the Mountain West..

For North Texas the Belt was perfect for us and beneficial as well. It helped us counter the murderer’s row of Non-conference schedules with easier teams that was drivable to see a road game at. It too had a start up bowl that helped us get our brand on tv but the difference was for numerous reasons and too many to list we failed to take advantage of it. But Dr. Pohl took Coach Stallings advice and did exactly as he suggested and it eventually got us up another rung on the ladder.

Both conferences were very beneficial to both programs.

Rick